Does anyone else feel that survivors objective speed is simply broken?

Coh needs to go. Medkit change was complicated

• Able to self heal manytimes is a problem that killers can lost pressure.
• Reduce the self healing speed make medkits from chests a completely waste of time. Its better to sit on Gen injured hope a teammate comes to join, you should not spend half a Gen time for a single health state from Medkit chest.
• If they made items spawn from chests and keep self healing 16sec. That should save killers alot more time.

Boons are not worth to use. Healing are not worth to use with Sloppy or being tunneling that you dont have a chance to use. Aura is under Ultimate weapon meta.

The problem isnt how long a Gen can be done. Its if killer gets the first hook and decide to tunnel before 2-3 Gens done, its over for average survivors.

Since you are probably talking about old old Ruin - no. This would be the most stupid thing ever. Original Ruin was extremely unhealthy. And since it was paired with PGTW, even more frustrating to go against.

Yeah, because then Boons would have been weak from the start. Boons are a failed concept, after all. The thing is, you cannot just compare Boons to Hexes. They are both shiny Totems, but this is where the similarity ends. Boons need setup and can be snuffed in a second, Hexes dont need setup and need time to cleanse.

Hexes work globally, Boons only in an area (which also means that Survivors waste time to get to this area, people are always acting as if Survivors teleport into the Boon-area...).

IMO CoH would have been fine in the state before the latest nerf, if they would have added that it only works on the floor it is located on. This would have been a nerf and would have made it way weaker on two-story maps, but would still keep the Perk useful. And even then I had the opinion that people who use CoH help you to lose the game, but now it is really pointless.

Regarding Medkits - Medkits were not the problem. The problem was self-healing which was too fast. And IMO this could have been solved with capping the max and min time it takes to heal. This would be a solution in both ways, the Killer cannot just stack healing Slowdown on top of it (which honestly would probably only affect Coulrophobia) and Survivors cannot heal mid-chase. But they made so many changes which were just too complicated over all.

Regarding DS - DS was one of the healthy Perks of the game after its numerous nerfs. When it would have stayed on 5 seconds. I dont agree with all of the Nerfs (deactivating in Endgame for example... I dont see why the Killer would deserve a pity Kill at this point, but I understand it), but certainly the complaints about DS were super-low after it deactivated when you progressed the game in any way and the only thing asked for at this point was to maybe deactivate it in endgame. Reducing it to 3 seconds just outright killed the Perk, because it means that the Survivor only gets 7m of distance.

And removing the best tool against tunneling (even if it was overall not a great tool) leads to a Meta where tunneling is basically in every game, because the Killer does not really have a risk. All current Anti-Tunnel measurements resolve around Endurance, which means that one hit removes them all. And it is way easier to just go after the unhooked Survivor and once they are dead, the Killer can basically go for many Hooks, because the Survivors lost anyway and at this point it is basically just a matter of how many points the Killer wants to farm.

T🐽T

This problem is a direct correlation to the player bases skill level having far surpassed the games mechanics. If you were to take a mediocre survivor of todays meta and put them in a 2017 match, everyone would think that they were cheating, because they know techniques and tactics that were invonceivable at the games origins.

Nowadays we have all this techs and most players know the games basics in and out, so while technically they should heal, from a game design perspective, their skills tell them "nah, lets just slam this gen and be done with it."

You can't blame the players for this, but the players have evolved much faster then the game they are in and by now its showing very vividly. The game could need some big health updates and internal revisions, but its doubtful that BHVR will ever find the time to do so, with their 3 month release shedule. And I don't know if its even possible on a technical level to modernize some of the games aspects and mechanics.

Something like a dynamic games director that helps the side getting stomped a little bit without the other side getting the feeling that they are "rewarded for losing".

This is actually quite a good take and I do basically agree with all of it. MMR partly has contributed to this since it has meant that the variety of players has shortened in scope so you will face better players on average at the soft cap compared to the old emblem ranking system since getting to red ranks was very easy so the survivor and even killer skill variety was huge (with most obviously being not all that good).

However, with MMR this has caused people to get better and obviously with the game being out as long as it has as you seem to imply this has contributed to it a lot as well. The game without taking skill or anything like that into consideration does need a health update since its fundamentals are very flawed from a code perceptive (look at how many bugs we get introduced each patch for example). Of course that is an ideal world thing and we know that the devs cannot do this most likely due to time constraints etc despite it obviously doing wonders for the game if they did.

Where I part ways a bit is the whole healing and the perceived urge not to heal and just do gens. It is a strat that can work for sure, however it is quite a risky one especially depending on the killer you are facing.

Where it can backfire for example, regardless of the killer is if for instance you hook a guy and the whole team is injured and lets say the team is a bit behind on gens, this basically forces a heal since the killer can just proxy and snowball from there if not. Another example of where it is vital to heal is if someone is dead on hook etc. Even comp survivors heal commonly since it is worth the time investment in order to prevent future snowballing etc.

Dont get me wrong, I have had the no healing slam gens strat used against me and it sucks when it works, but equally I have had survivors try this and I have capitalised and punished it and got wins from it. It is a risky strat that again can work super well but can also backfire quite hard so taking time to heal can 100% be worth it.

I will never cease to advocate for my personal take on Hex/totem revision, until BHVR gives it a try in a PTB. Here we go:

1) at the start of the game all Hexes are sustained by The Entity. That means that all totems on the map are dulls and the survivors can do with them as they please: cleanse them, ignore them, boon them, use them to power up perks like Overzealous and Inner Healing etc.

2) after a certain time (I would say 90s, but 120s could also work) The Entities protection ceases and all of the killers Hexes are moved to any remaining dull totems on the map, from left to right in their perk loadout. That means that if the killer got a full loadout, but the survivors cleansed 2 totems, the last Hex would now fizzle out.

Thats basically it. It would make nearly all hexes viable again, while not intruding on survivors ability to utilize totems or getting in the way of tome challenges, achievments or bone hunters. Killers would get a certain guarenteed uptime for their hexes and the increased viability of hexes should increase their usage rate, while not being overtly oppressive.

That had a fairly simple solution. Stake Out works wonders when its about hitting great skill checks. They could have buffed it a little bit, to get more stacks and keept the old-old-Ruin.

Ohh i totally forgot about the disable part of the current Ruin. Yeah, they should have tested it first. Double punishing a "high risk, high reward" perk.

I really wonder why they completely changed their approach from semi strong hex perks to what we have now.

Ah, I remember that one on Léry's. That was really good. Looking at some of the totem spots we have now, it honestly makes me sad.

And here I agree completely, my friend. I miss the time some people would run Small Game because finding totems was a good secondary objective.

Old old Ruin was terrible designed.

It was effortless Slowdown for the Killer. The reworked Ruin required the Killer to put effort in chasing Survivors off Gens and it only really became a problem due to Tinkerer (because this gave too much information, especially for high mobiliy Killers).

Old old Ruin also was inconsistent, even on top of being a Hex. You can get 0 Skill Checks while completing a Gen or get a Skill Check every 3 seconds. And, it punished newish players more than experienced players. Against a good Team, old old Ruin had nearly no value (aside from removing the Bonus Progression on Great Skill Checks), against an inexperienced team it was too strong. Pair that with the fact that the little progress you could do was removed by PGTW...

Yeah, old old Ruin needed to go and it was one of the most healthy changes ever, since they kept a Perk strong with a Rework, but not unhealthy.

There are times where the nostalgia is too much. And defending old old Ruin is one of those times.

Well, thanks for being polite this time.

But I stand by my opinion.

First, I see no issue with Ruin specifically being an "effortless" slowdown because it is a Hex. The very idea of hex perks are high risk high reward. Ruin is allowed to have a powerful effect from the get go because once it is gone, it is gone.

As for the inconsistency, well that could indeed happen. But from what I've seen even seasoned players were far more likely to try and search for the totem, as it should be, than to try and power through it. Don't get me wrong, you could do that. Heck, I did it myself plenty of times. But that wasn't the most common, scenario, at least in my experience.

And well, opinions are subjective. You may see a healthy change, I just see one of my favorite perks in the game being removed.

Also just your opinion, not a fact.

But that is okay. There are matters we won't see eye to eye, and there is nothing wrong with that. As long as the discussion is kept civil, of course.

They slowed the game down in the sense that they made it take longer to do the gens, but they were more time efficient.

Basically, a killer would have to spend a solid 20-30 seconds landing a hit. But with the crazy medkits, and CoH, they survivors only had to spend maybe 12 seconds to heal themselves. So yes, it slowed the game down in the absolute sense, but efficiency-wise, it wasted more of the killer's time than the survivors time.

I'm literally saying the opposite.

If it takes the killer 30 seconds to land a hit, but with things like CoH it only takes the survivor 12-15 seconds to heal that hit, then that is by definition less time efficient for the killer. The self healing changes made it so hit and run became viable again because now if survivors want to self heal, they must do it much slower (such as with self-care) and now medkit is slower, and also the medkit is much more limited than before, so you either make it faster, or you get 1 more heal out of it.

This means that when healing, survivors are likely spending 2 survivors healing for 16 seconds. Which is a total of 32 seconds off the gen for the team (2 survivors healing each other) on top of the time it takes them to find each other (although that can be mitigated with healing near gens and such).

This means that hitting a survivor and leaving them, is now generally a gain of time for the killer if you can do it in 30 seconds or less.

The problem though is 2-fold.

The killer is extremely weak in the early game due to having 4 survivors who have nothing to do but gens, and also due to the many unmindgamable god pallets in the game. But at the same time, people say they don't like 3 genning. The reality is, against a decent survivor team, that first chase and hook will probably cost the killer 2-3 gens. Meaning that survivors already are well on the way to winning and the killer is just barely getting started. Generally its going to take the killer around 20 seconds to cross the map and start a chase, then another 30 seconds to land a hit, then another 20 seconds to land a second hit (and this is assuming the survivor doesn't use pallets and the killer wins the mindgame each time). Then factor in the unmindgamable god pallets that MUST be broken, and the fact that a broken pallet gives a survivor 20 seconds of distance and that gens take 90 seconds....

20 seconds to find and start a chase

30 seconds for the first hit

20 seconds for the second hit

3 second pickup animation

7-10 seconds walking to a hook

1.5 second hook animation

That's 81.5 seconds. And that is assuming it all goes perfectly, the survivor doesn't hide, the chase starts right away, and you win both mindgames for the hits. Now factor in 20 seconds of distance for just predropping a god pallet? And you lost 3 gens there to down that first survivor, and all they had to do with shift + w straight to shack, predrop the pallet, and shift + w to a corner of the map. And then you wonder why nurse and blight are top tier? Because they can end those chases in 15-20 seconds instead of 45-50.

If they did something to even out the curve, perhaps through something like the early trial warmup mentioned by scott jund a while back. Maybe a basekit corrupt that blocks all gens except the ones near the killer at the start, that ends as soon as a chase starts, or a survivor gets injured or the killer interacts with them. Or some other mechanic to slow the game down at the start. Then of course we take some of that new time we just added to the killer side away from the 3-gen, and you'll have a much more evenly spaced out time for the game.

Not exactly. Self healing isn´t possible with CoH anymore. Better approach would have been to keep the self healing, despite making it very slow. While keeping a high heal others rate.

Wanna know what they also nerfed along gen repair time? All slowdown perks across the board.

Which completely nullified the benefit of the slower gens.

The issue is that these band-aid perks become a 'perk tax'. Imagine having to take Stake-out for Ruin, Potential Energy for 3-gens (Which also just... no. Working on a contested gen at a significantly slower pace doesn't really help with that), OTR/DS for tunnelling and Reassurance for camping.

This is sort of what was going on before 6.1, where the average survivor load-out was comprised almost completely of perks that had to be taken to resolve certain situations that don't have proper natural counters. It also limits design space, because any more of these 'just bring perk to fix' concepts would go over budget, and any survivor perk that doesn't fulfil a similar role to an already existing 'perk tax' perk would be a waste of space.

I see it more like a way to help with short commings or skill issues until someone gets better and doesn´t need the help in that regard.

I just said, that the extra gen time was nullified by the slowdown nerf.

Killers still take 3-4 slowdown perks, because they struggle with gen times. Because one bad chase can mean the end of the match. There used to be more room for mistakes for both sides. Now it looks like its competitive for everyone and people complain about "sweaty killers/survivors" when someone just plays normal.

As of lately, i´ve seen way to many matches that didn´t last 5 minutes and/or where the killers simply gave up after 1 hook at 2 gens left.

When killers camp/tunnel. Everyone goes on how the killer is toxic and how that isn´t fun for survivors. But what about killers fun? It really isn´t motivating to see gens fly, while you barely get hooks.