BHVR sucks all the fun out of the killers with their reworks
Freddy, Legion, Hillbilly, Onryo, Skull Merchant, and now Trickster. Who's next? Twins or maybe Singularity by making him worse than he already is?
This has to stop.
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To be fair how did they make legion less fun to play? The previous version was unbearable crap
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When survivors complain enough then BHVR will take action. The so called 'rework' is actually a big nerf for the killer.
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They literally made a Onryo into a killing machine. Legion is stronger and skull merchant is arguably even worse to go against.
only case is Billy but he’s still strong and Freddy cause he sucks
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Personally I've found fun with Sadako without spamming condemned, but even I'll admit I'm in the minority on that subject. Same with Skull Merchant, if I can be completely honest.
Trickster feels terrible now though.
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You don't have to interact with Skull Merchant's drones anymore. She's a joke.
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Freddy's rework will always be the one change in DBD I hate most.
And what makes that whole situation infuriatingly worse is that it wasn't needed! Just a few QoL improvements and he would be perfect. Why change the whole thing when the solution is far easier?
BHVR has the chance to fix that, and I'm begging for them to take it. I desperately want my favorite killer back.
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Accept it. It won't happen. The only way to change this game is when we all stop playing dbd.
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“Rework” is code for major nerfs. Best case scenario is they make a .02 % change to power/addons. Meanwhile survivors are given basekit BT and will be given protection against 3 genning. Does anyone see a double standard?
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Cant wait for another random killer reworks, like trickster lol
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Based and red pilled. The truth is right in front of our eyes.
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Was thinking the same thing. I feel like he was just listing killers to add substance hoping no one noticed.
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Skull merchant still sucks but she at least is more fun than before.
Legion is also more fun than before no question, I do not see how it did not?
Same with Sadako, I find her miles more fun to play compared to before (to play against is a different story though)
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Freddy: BHVR's fault, survivors didn't ask for this. Forever Freddy was not okay but this didn't mean his add-ons have to be garbage after rework. BHVR decides to do that. He was boring before the rework and still is.
Legion: Indefensible. Turns out survivors are the ones that have to deal with that BS if you design a Killer like that. Also he isn't the worst Killer right now.
Hillbilly: BHVR's fault, survivors didn't ask for this. Also which survivor complains about Billy? BFR.
Onryo: much stronger now.
Skull Merchant: much stronger now.
Trickster: much stronger now.
So help me understand the "when survivors complain enough" narrative. BHVR flops with a rework and it's the survivors' fault even though it's BHVR who decides how the rework is suppose to be like? Stop the us vs. them. Thanks.
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Like others have said, older Legion sucked way more than current one. Your point would be much stronger if you didn't even mention him, imo. Easily the worst designed killer they've ever released, aside from maybe SM. All the others, well, I can agree on - Even though Trickster doesn't feel that bad anymore, imo.
I dislike both versions of Sadako.
I dislike both versions of Skull Merchant.
I miss old Freddy, but fear we'll never get him back. The Hillbilly changes... I still don't know what the hell BHVR was on.
Post edited by NomiNomad on3 -
Dude Billy is NOT still strong. The roar is annoying, there's still a limit to how much you can use the saw with overheating, his perks for pretty much destroyed when all you had to do was make charge speed not attack and the saw hitboxes are weird.
I think curving got NERFED.
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I'm pretty sure skull merchant deserved her rework. To play against was pain
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I miss old Freddy, but fear we'll never get him back
Don't lose hope, my friend. Not as long as I am here.
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I mean basekit bt was absolutely a necessity, I look back at old clips and it's insane a killer could come to a hook and slap the hooked person instantly down. Gives that person 0 opportunity to make a play to survive
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Many killers are stronger, I believe Trapper is alot stronger with 10 traps and Haste.
But I dont like how he plays now, I gave up on him. There are people like their killers because of the way killers play style, not strength.
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There are people like their killers because of the way killers play style, not strength.
This.
Well said, my friend.
I know that feeling all too well. Even if I disagree with the people who said Old Freddy was the weakest killer in the game back then (he wasn't, I would prove everyone wrong if I could).
I know how it is to see your killer being made stronger, because after the rework Freddy was objectively stronger, but the killer being so different that you can no longer stand him.
It hurts, doesn't it? For me, it is terrible.
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Skull Merchant never had any fun to be sucked out of her in the first place. She just went from one obnoxious version to another.
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I see lots of Survivor cosmetic sales in the future.
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Billy is only good if you opponents are blind,deaf and as bright as a goldfish. A good survivor should NEVER get curved, maybe backrev in a deadzone since its unavoidable but getting curved is 100% on the survivor.
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Onryo, Skull Merchant, and Trickster(after getting his throw rates fixed this patch) are all easier and more fun to play as with their reworks imo.
Legion never even got a dedicated rework like he was supposed to(since BHVR dropped it due to his win rates being in a "good place" and such).
Freddy I feel like he could be better if they managed to find a way to combine his current version and his old version together.
And Hillbilly is just fundamentally flawed in current DBD since most maps have too much clutter and such on them to help make certain killers not extremely powerful which means he can't use his chainsaw very easily so no matter what he's gonna be horrible to play without a full-on rework of his power.
For Twins I'm interested in the possibilities for them and Singularity I'm really excited about because his current design is ONLY suited for the MOST-experienced DBD killer mains making him very difficult/unusable for many players and he's also not console friendly at all which only makes him less suitable for even more players.
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It really wasn’t. I’ve been playing since 2018 and using a perk slot for it was a fair trade off.
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It wasn’t for legion. Went from being unbearable to a decent mid-tier killer.
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Try playing Legion against a rush group and let me know how that goes. Smart survivors sprint in the opposite direction when they get a hit and essentially deny half of their power.
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"Who's next?"
They can have Clown... my only request is: don't change his voice. That cough-laugh when someone goes down is great.
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They changed it because he wasn't actually good and didn't have a power. His power was that he got to play the game and passively just made the game horribly slow and unfun with a specific set of addons. Now they did him dirty by giving him a power that isn't particularly interesting or good, but he needed more that than just QoL because fundamentally his original power shouldn't have shipped the way it did. He needs to have his power addressed again to make it more exciting and useful, but I'm not even sure what to give him because simply put I don't think the remake really did a good job showcasing the powers of a dream demon.
Freddy's one of the few killers I would have personally took a pass on adding to the game if I couldn't get the 80's/90's version.
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I have a concept for Freddy, shared with the Forums quite a few times.
The feedback I've got overall is that it fixes the issues people had with him, while keeping his power fun and unique.
I can guarantee you it would work. And if I can fix Freddy, so could BHVR back in 2019.
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That doesn’t change the fact that he was significantly worse before. The “rework” was a straight up buff on all accounts.
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Well it starts with constant spamming, I've witnessed this on Twitter about eruption.One team thinking their gods and got defeated by post Eruption from a killer they considered beneath their godly feet soles won a match?
Defeated them and they spammed Bhvr claiming killers without skill should not have an opportunity to capitalize on survivors from a perk. Well god-damned if the killer power didn't work out, or the add-ons didn't help in or their other three perks did diddly squat and they brought them some time because incapacitated status ? was awesome status.
Having such an effect on a killer perk is unfair and unbalanced quote on quote?
Meanwhile survivors have DS, Adrenaline, Borrowed time," very very" strong instant healing perks,med-kits with instant healing basically and a wholeeeee lotta other things that I don't even bother to care about reading the description that stacks and guess all these things do they buy the survivor "more time"? So yeah if you don't sqe the double standard there " I cannot help you friend" ?
Also Pyramid Head shadow nerfed multiple times and no one noticed but i did ?
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If you mean human tend to do the easiest thing first, yes.
But for me with old Trapper, or Sadako for @radiantHero23 & Freddy for @GeneralV . Despite the killers were weaker (admit that they needed a slight QoL), but we know how to make it work which make the killer so unique for us. Now its easy for everyone, the time we spent to master those killers were pointless now.
- If I was in the looping with a survivor in tittle A, and there are tittle B (with one hard to be seen trap) and tittle C (without trap). I could manipulate survivor to chaining to B but not C so I can get use of the trap. I think that's the most unique skill of mine with Trapper.
- Now you can put both traps at tittle B & C pallets (because you have so many traps but not much good places to set), and hope there is no other survivor coming to disarm the obvious traps, rendering them useless. But if not, its dead end for the chased survivor.
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You realize "when they say old Freddy" all they want is for him to be able to see your aura the entire game right? Notice none of the Freddy's ever give a description of the old "Freddy" lol but I wouldn't mind the being invisible part until you are put in the dream world to come back? That was cool and very innovative. Bhvr please stop giving us these standard killers and get creative like guy's use to do.
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Well said, my friend. Well said.
I'll always disagree with the idea that Old Freddy was the weakest killer back then, even though I won't ever deny that he needed QoL improvements. But as you've said, it didn't matter to me that people thought him weak. All I ever saw was my favorite killer.
I remember every trick I tried to learn with him, jut like you did with Trapper, @radiantHero23 with Sadako and so many others with their own killers.
The mindgames during the Dream Transition, the strategies for controlling the map... now what do I have?
Two boring abilities which barely work and a teleport.
It is not always about strength, sometimes its about fun. And when that isn't taken into consideration, players like us suffer.
We lose the things that make DBD fun.
No one gives a description?
But I gave the Forums a full concept:
I mean, what more could I possibly offer?
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half of those are still fun? Legion, Skull Merchant and Trickster absolutely all are.
don't get me wrong, as a hux main I'm concerned about a potential rework coming through the pipeline for a killer that is on the whole fine (just needs some QoL and the understanding that he has a high skill floor). but it's wrong to argue that they always end up unfun.
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Well, thank you :)
I'm glad you liked my concept. I did the best I could with this idea, and it always warms my heart to see that people enjoyed it.
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I think they are talking about original Legion... which like... the original version of Legion was horrible, and was only held together by two rubberbands and a bandaid.
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That is an understatement.
That Legion is one of the few things from the past that I do not miss, and if I don't miss something then you know that something was BAD.
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The only thing I miss was the spam swinging in Feral Frenzy because it was goofy... but every other part about his kit was horrible.
I guess you can say, that everyone was that time was dealing with... Darkness Among Them.
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Yeah, it was pretty awful. And I was a new player at the time, I had no idea what was going on.
Though the situation wasn't good for seasoned players either, having to play against a killer like that one. I guess, when they saw Legion, many players just went into a frenzy. A Feral Frenzy.
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Yea, I understand it. A lot of players would just instantly give up because it wasnt fun, leading to DCing and giving up on hook. The rest of the team was basically Dead... By Daylight.
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They made Onryo stronger but also less fun. Thinking back to the PTB feedback, there was a massive amount of players who weren't happy with this rework. Players that actually played her before. Funnily enough, the one argument in favor of the rework (no more slugging for condemned) is pretty much invalid with how many Sadakos play now. In all the games I've played against her since the rework, slugging has been a vital part of the match.
Billy is in a very bad spot, honestly. Most of his weaknesses are associated with his infamous nerf but it's more than that. The meta changes and the flow of time haven't treated him well. Billy worked because maps had way less clutter on them, loop shapes were more in line with his strengths, survivors overall played worse (now even the worst survivor will try and dodge his chainsaw) and he had addons that made him work despite all his weaknesses. As terrible as his insta saw was, it still helped him to account for all of his weaknesses in one way or another.
Now Billy has a million weaknesses, that all require one or two addons or perks to fix. But then you still have all the other weaknesses you couldn't accomodate for. Think about it. His base speed is too low to curve most loops effectively (fixed with Engravings), many loops are more circular or square shaped than proper rectangles with long and short sides (Tuned Carburettor), his FOV is terrible and you see almost nothing (perk slot for Shadowborn), his chainsaw is so loud that you better turn down your volume (Off-Brand Motor Oil), his collisions around many objects are terrible (Heavy Clutch), he has a weakness against pre drops (Lo-Pro Chains), he can't play around windows very well (Bamboozle), his mobility on many maps is very restricted due to all the random clutter (either Dad's Boots, Spiked Boots or both) and bumping is immensely punishing (Low Kickback Chains or Steel Toe Boots).
He is a bit like Myers. A relic of a very different game. A killer that hasn't changed with the game and now carries the consequences of BHVR's negligence.
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When I was talking about combining both versions of Freddy I'm talking about bringing several features together such as the manual ability to put survivors to sleep, the passive sleep timer, Dream Pallets passively spawning in the dream world, Dream Snares randomly trying to pop up in a sleeping survivor's path, etc. Having both version of him combined into one would make him a lot more interesting imo.
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Freddy: Everyone starts asleep. While awake you see Freddy intermittently. Freddy harming you with M1 wakes you up. Hooking you wakes you up (If you fall asleep while downed). Blood Pallets replaces the Teleport instead of Blood Snares. Blood Pallets will appear in the waking world as well as the dream. Slamming a Blood Pallet in the wake pulls the wake survivor who slammed it into the dream. Slamming a Blood Pallet in the dream causes the survivor who slammed it to scream, and wake up. They suffer a Hindered penalty.
Freddy can now either focus on teleportation, or versatility. Survivors have to adjust accordingly.
Trickster: Easy. Trick Blades are base kit. Knives bounce once. Add on adds 2 additional bounces for a total of 3.
He’s called the Trickster for a reason. Give him a skill cap other than making him Huntress with extra steps. The most silliest thing I’ve ever seen. Trickster is not his own killer unless he is using that add on… If anything make Trick Blade Brown, but add a consequence. Like adds a bounce but takes an extra knife to cause a health state.
Legion: Frenzy now lacerates someone X times before the survivor loses a full health state. Each time Legion lacerates someone the Frenzy Meter refills, and Legion will get faster. As the Frenzy gets stronger their screen gets tinted red, and this deepens. Missing a swing doesn’t end Frenzy. It eats away at Legion’s Frenzy Meter. Downing a survivor using Frenzy will deplete some of the Frenzy Meter. Frenzy will end once Legion runs out of Frenzy, or gets stunned by a pallet. The more players suffer from lacerations will make Legion’s Frenzy Meter refill faster. Killer Instinct only triggers when Legion causes a survivor to lose a health state from using Frenzy. Lacerations heal on their own over time. A survivor can mend another survivors lacerations away, which halves the time it takes for lacerations to fade on their own. Getting hit by Frenzy also give survivors a burst of speed.
Basically avoid collecting Lacerations. Or else they can snowball everyone.
I can go further, but let’s start there. 😮💨
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Oh yeah the Frank’s mixtape walking backwards legion lol
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Eruption is the worst example you could've used to make your point but okay
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I feel you are so off with that sentiment, at least with past reworks. The recent ones where more miss than hit, I'll give you that. But overall there changes to killers (reworks and adjustments) were good more often than not:
Good reworks / power tweaks:
- Trapper
- Wraith
- Nurse (making her less oppressive and more healthy to the game)
- Doctor (!)
- Cannibal (!)
- Clown
- Spirit
- Legion (don't know why you place them as bad, honestly)
- Ghostface
Mixed reworks / power tweaks:
- Deathslinger
- Onryo (More tape interactions now)
- Skull Merchant (No more chess merchant!)
Bad reworks / power tweaks:
- Billy
- Trickster
Freddy gets his own tier:
- His rework was initially received quite well! At that time, Freddy with his original kit was considered F tier, hated by most survivors and killers. He needed one specific set of addons to stand a chance at all. Its funny how the Freddy nostalgics in this forum always fail to mention that. Or they simply forgot.
- The rework made him strong enough to compete against most teams. He was still hated by survivors (bc of Forever Freddy Builds), but at least he was fun to play as now (or not as frustrating as before).
- Poor guy didn't age so well, he received numerous nerfs, placing him back into D tier again.
- Expectations changed somehow, so Freddy is now considered "boring" by the majority of the community, although that certainly was not the case right after the rework.
- Also relevant to mention, while many suggest the the original kit would only have needed incpacitated for dream transition, that type of effect was not part of the game when the rework happened. It was later added when Twins joined the game.
- Overall, I wouldn't call the Freddy rework a miss, it just did not age very well over the years!
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Agree!
Freddy and Sadako in particular where very creative killers in their own rights. The reworks for both of them made them stronger (in case of Freddy only for a while), but did one thing especially well.
WATER THEM DOWN.
They are way more boring to play. Sadako is a spam fest of a killer that destroys soloq and struggles against better survivors, due to her chase being nerfed. Gone are the days of strategically condemning survivors, mindgaming teleports and predicting the correct TV. Freddy was even more extreme when he got reworked in my opinion. Horrendous slowdown, combined with teleport and basicly clowns power on top. Set snare here, push survivor there and easy hit. The nerfs only showed the true side of the rework. If you nerf it, its way too weak. If it stays, its way too strong. No in between. Dont even get me started on the addons. Sadako barely got her addons touched. Only the "problematic" ones got changed. The other awful addons stayed the exact same. Freddy is widely considered to have the worst addons in the entire game. I mean, you could make his iridescent paint brush basekit and he would not be too strong in any way. If you can make the strongest addons of a killer completely basekit and he would still be realtively weak, that says A LOT about the state of the killer.
But again, the most important part is: They lost what made them enjoyable and unique.
I very much hope that they revert many of what the rework destroyed in the case of Sadako and that they heavily consider doing the same for Freddy when his time inevitably comes.
#bringbackSadako
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