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Idea for solving 3-gen
A lot of people bring up gen placement and map design, but I think there's a way to address it without changing maps. When there's one gen remaining, generators can no longer regress passively. The killer can still kick generators and get the 2.5% regression, but beyond that generators won't regress on their own (Hex Ruin would be the exception). This would nerf Call of Brine and Overcharge, as the increased passive gen regression wouldn't be in effect at this point in the match. Since they were originally nerfed because of 3 gens, they could probably be buffed back to where they were or close to it.
Jolt/Surge, Eruption and PGtW would probably need some form of nerf as well. Surge and Eruption could have a short cooldown (maybe 20-30 seconds). For PGtW, maybe make it so it no longer activates after hooking a survivor for the 3rd time/death hook (reduces uses from 12 to 8). At one gen remaining, there would probably be at least one or multiple survivors on death hook, so PGtW would get less opportunity to be used in 3 gen scenarios.
These changes should be fairly easily to implement. Some of the typical 3-gen builds/perks could then be buffed to help with slowdown early-mid game since they will lose their passive regression effect when only 1 gen is remaining (Call of Brine, Overcharge, Oppression).
Comments
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"When there's one gen remaining, generators can no longer regress passively"Stopped reading at that sentence because
- That's technically nerfing and punishing killer for doing one of their objectives
- Maps are part of the issue, and I say this because of maps like Mother's Dwelling, Sufforcation Pit, Azarov's Resting Place (Map not the realm).
Maps such as the ones I mentioned can indirectly force a killer into 3 gens because what's the point in hooking someone on one side of the map just to walk back to the other side and have all gens pop on that side of the map? At the point the killer genuinely has no reason to be on that side of the map.
Scanning over everything else you said, it looks you wanna completely butcher regression and if you do that than the game will become unplayable and possibly boring/frustrating for both sides since tunneling is the answer for regression in its current state.
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that's a good idea though, it just needs to be tweaked a bit.
the main reason 3 genning works is because killers are capable to regress / pressure gens faster than survivors can conceivably repair them & reset.
regression on 3 gen needs to be limited and it will solve the issue because no matter how good 3 gen is, if survivors are capable to hold their ground for, let's say, 10 minutes of doing progress, then they deserve to win.
We can add a threshold of regression after which passive regression stops working and only instant regression will apply. F/e 200% of gen total repair progress can be regressed passively, after that the generator will no longer be possible to regress by any means of passive regression and only instant regression like 2.5% from kicking, pain res, etc will work.
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Stopped reading at that sentence becauseI think my favorite thing on the forum is the replies that go:
I stopped reading
Now
Please read my post.
This wouldn't make much of a difference in the current gameplay. The passive slowdown is not a huge issue on the 3 gen, survivors should be able to get back to the gens pretty quickly as the killer still has to patrol the other gens.
For the perk ideas, that would kill way too much of the killer's ability to get some type of pressure. Last gen complaints are the opposite side of killer complaints: killers complain that the first gens pop way too fast, while survivors that the last gen is way too slow. At the outliers both statements have some truth to them, but as general game design its not an issue, things should go well for the survivors early and tilt over the course of the game. The last gen should be difficult (not borderline impossible, which is what it was with chess merchant and the old Overbrine, but difficult).
If, and its a big if as they've already been weakened quite a bit, the gen perks where going to decrease in values, it should be based on survivors left in the trial. The might mean survivors still have a chance in a 3 v 1 against a 3 gen.
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The fact that you even responded to me, and said some of the same things I did tells me you read what I said and that we think a like. Thanks for the unnessesary ping though, glad we on the same page about the topic
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So if the survivors fail to do their objective, punish the killer and make it easier to do the objective for the survivors?
If the 3 gen lasts for an extended period of time, it should just consider that the survivors have lost and kick in an endgame collapse where they must finish the last gen before the timer ends.
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I'm not so keen as this feels like a punishment and gen placement would still be the best way to go, had the devs programmed the ability to place them better. Certainly, so long as the Killer was not playing for a 3-gen and the Survivors caused the situation themselves, then it makes little sense to punish the Killer for a Survivor-made scenario.
However, the devs did say their upcoming solution is based upon deliberate protection of the 3 closest gens by the Killer which sounds like a second-best scenario and - should this be implimented well - would be a good alternative.
The aim is to prevent Killers from planning defence and patrolling a 3-gen early on, instead of doing their job of killing. The Skull Merchant's old design really brought this to light and it's an unenjoyable style of play, so this would be the way to go.
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Whatever they are doing about 3gen's, is already done and will be implemented next month in the PTB. They already left a hint about it having something to do with the kicks and only affecting games forced into that playstyle and situations, not natural and regular games (just like the anti-camping mechanic).
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I am very glad this game is not in your hands.
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As extreme as his wording is, there is a kernel of truth to his statement;
If 3-genning, even if by the Survivors's mistake (repairing safe edge-map gens and leaving a middle cluster) and not by the Killer, is made impossible then it is akin to punishing Killers for Survivors's mistake. To some extent it would become desirable since Killers would be limited during the last gen so there is no point in risking early deaths by doing risky gens before the end.
I believe map design and gen spawn are the answer and not some mechanic that will finish off the gen perks and make life very hard for setup Killers and slow Killers (Trapper and Hag in particular are just dead from that).
Side-note: The dreadful basekit Unbreakable PTB was scrapped never to return (probably the first time Killers & Survivors united in their dislike of something), PTB doesn't set anything in stone. If the solution is poison for the game it will get repelled.
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The problem with the game is its overall design. There is no solution for these problems. They would either need to create a entirely new game or accept the fact that it can't be changed how they want it to be changed without making it worse for one side or the other.
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The maps are already getting ready for that anti 3-gen mechanic to be implemented regardless of what it is and how it will work. Have you not seen 3 gens literally 10 steps away from each other in Garden of Joy now? ARP can literally spawn 5 gens in one side now. All reworked maps are (rightfully) being tweaked in size to make it easier for killers to find survivors, chase and so on. Now that the size of the maps is being reduced, gens are logically going to be closer to each other, so the 3 gen strat is insanely strong with little to no effort.
It's absolutely fair now that they will tweak how 3 gens will work from now on, especially to not repeat history with future killers that could cause the issues Knight and Skull Merchant caused even though they are no the only ones who excell at this strat, perks are the main problem over any killer power, but this will also make future perks more flexible in design since they won't make games literally impossible to progress. Hit and run and 3genning are playtyles that go hand by hand, and is too rewarding for how easy it is, now it's time to change to another meta with the anti 3-gen mechanic, future mangled and sloppy nerfs, STBFL nerfs and maps being adjusted to make them easier for killers to navigate on them. I thought the whole point of MFT being nerfed also is so killers would chase more now, well... Now it's time to train that!
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All that's well in theory, but it doesn't change the fact that it nukes two entire perk categories (gen-kick and remote regression, both of which will become limited if their "solution" is to be believed) and makes life much harder for trap/setup/slow Killers while voiding possible Survivor mistakes if they manage to be in a 3v1 at least in the last gen. Without being able to regress gens it is only a matter of time before Survivors eventually repair the gen percent per percent.
Blight and Nurse don't care if they can't kick gens, they patrol near-instantly and barely leave any repair time not to mention their chases are usually short. Mid/low-tier Killers however will suffer from this because it will mean that Survivors can do every safe gens without fear of a difficult ending.
MFT wasn't nerfed so that Killers "chased more", MFT was nerfed because M1 Killers were pulling their teeth chasing after people running it, Survivors were going just as fast as certain Killers with MFT and Hope together!
I hate Killers playing 3-gen chess from the start as much as anyone, but I'm not ready to approve something that will reduce Killer variety. I have no desire to face Blights and Nurses nearly every games and I don't want to be forced to play top-tier Killers in order to compete against decent Survivors.
Because what do you think will happen if gen defense with regression dies? Killers will slow gens the other way: tunnel aggressively even more than now. And I'm quite sure, at least I hope, that you don't want that to be the result.
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I'm just saying, if the survivors 3 gunned themselves and can't break it, the match is over. Instead of a deadlock for an hour, the match should be forced to a close to everyone can move on to the next match. The survivors were unable to complete all the gens in a timely manner.
Yes I have seen gens close to each other. That's why as a survivor, I always immediately run to the center area and begin focusing on those. I disregard edge gens every time. It's not that difficult to break a 3 gen early. The only killer I've ever had an issue with doing this strat against was original skull merchant. It's up to survivors to prevent endgame 3 gens. The killer can't chase everyone at once. Even if they camp it, the moment the killer chases someone off of a center gen, another survivor should be following up with repairs while the killer is chasing off the other.
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I would love to see you breaking those 3 gens in some maps that spawn even closer that in that one famous video of the Skull Merchant holding the best team in the world for 50 minutes. I am so sure you would have done all gens in a timely manner since you seem to be that good (even in solo Q I would assume by how confident you are) and not recognise an issue with a lot of RNGs for gen spawns + how certain perks (current and future ones that would come) alongside killer powers (same. Current and future. And past in the case of old Skull Merchant). Some 3 gen spawns are as perturbing as some tiles/pallet spawns. If ones are looked into, it’s fair the others are too. Saying it’s on survivor’s fault to not be able to break a pre-set 3 gen without taking into account what RNG are we talking about is like blaming an m1 killer for not being able to get more than one kill on The Game map. So unserious and oblivious take.
So short sighted to not even think of how leaving the game as is in regards of 3gen’s situation limits the creativity for future perks and future killer powers, but whatever floats your boat!
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Yes, the game will be unplayable for every killer but Nurse and Blight just like it was going to be when they introduced the anti-face camp mechanic, and when they introduced base kit bit, and when… Yes yes yes, we have heard that so many times yet here we are. Yes only now we will see slugging and tunneling, never seen those before either. These are the average games already on my MMR at least, so I will not notice anything different. If you are so disappointed in the (undisclosed) changes to combat 3 gens then blame those who play killer to watch paint drying after kicking a gen for the 20th time in 1 minute and it being neutralised as a problem for the current state of the game and the future since it will make the design of perks, maps and killer powers very limited. Fighting the problem at its source will allow the creation of new perks, maps and killer powers more flexible. If this was a thing when Old Skull Merchant released she would have never been reworked, and that (+ Old Eruption meta) probably enlightened them to realise something needs to be done so it won’t happen ever again in the future, which is very smart and a good decision for game health.
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I already said skull merchant was the exception. That's a specific killer issue.
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Nope, 3 gen is a problem caused by poor survivor planning and killers preemptively picking one out. Nerfing the killer one without buffing the poor survivor play / planning is the proper move. This is just a blanket buff for survivors
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And it can repeat itself in the future if they don't fix the problem at its source. Will make designing future killer powers (and perks) such a tedious and scary task since they could feel history could repeat itself. What they are going to implement is the best thing they could do, just give your feedback for tweaks and changes once it's out. We don't even know what it actually is going to be and people are already so catastrophic about it just like they were with the anti camping mechanic which turned out to be barely effective anyways.
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I'm cautiously optimistic considering how decent the anti-facecamp ended up being in regards to not interrupting normal gameplay. However, one thing that does worry me is just how dependent many m1 killers are on being able to protect a 3 gen due to a lack of mobility to get around the map quicker. For example, if I'm playing Xeno, I don't feel like I need to try to protect a 3 gen - I can branch out since I can get around the map fine. However, on someone like Ghost Face or Myers, running off away from the 3 gen is practically a death sentence for your match. That being said, my biggest concern is that their 3 gen "solution" will make weak killers even weaker while not really affecting the stronger killers or killers with mobility - which is something BHVR has a terrible habit of doing (such as MFT).
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This mechanic will hopefully and likely just prevent stationary games that take up to over 20-30 PLUS. Those games are just not interesting and are tedious to play… Hit and run has gotten insanely strong in the past couple of years-ish (especially after healing and medkit nerfs, haemorrhage buffs) and it’s a playstyle that stomps solo Q and is the most frustrating I’d say, that’s why there are also planned changed to mangled status effect, sloppy butcher and Onryo for the second time in less than a year (queen of hit and run). As a result of wanting to mitigate the strength of hit and run, 3 genning has to be touched and viceversa since those playstyles go hand by hand. I’m excited for the upcoming changes for the sake of the matches feeling smoother and not like a 9 to 5 shift, I am sure they will tweak numbers if needed once the feature is implemented to guarantee it only affects insanely and unnecessarily extended matches and not regular gameplay.
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This would be a mistake. Gen patrolling is the cleanest play style that is left in the game right now. Nerfs to Gen control simply encourages tunneling and camping or using just S tier killers because can pressure enough to not need to patrol gens as tightly. Gen control is vital killer play.....nerfing it would be like nerfing lockers for survivors. A unnecessary nerf.
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I think if it’s not the killers fault, they shouldn’t be punished for at all. Some survivors 3 gen themselves from gen rushing the wrong ones too fast.
If there is a really bad 3 gen, maybe the killer can only kick it a few times before they are unable to kick it again. Of course, this would still include that they get the passive regression.
If a killer is going out of their way to protect close by generators from the start of the trial, then they should be punished for it.
The survivors are at fault. There should be no penalty or punishment on the killer.
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