If communications in DBD were balanced... why isn't it offered to solo survivors in game?
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Most of what I'll say has already been covered, but I'll try and address the responses.
>... you're still in the same place of not being any clearer on how to balance the game.
One could also argue a positive point that it creates new friends and becomes more fun which I must admit not many are doing which is odd but perhaps from being in solo queue. This only has positives regarding balance.
>1: BHVR doesn't want the racism/sexism it would lead to. You say other companies have voice chat and they deal with the hate speech. Cool, BHVR would rather never have it happen in the first place.
We live in a world where people may get offended, simply mute and move on or don't mute and communicate further. The idea that speech should be policed is a very odd, there will always be differences with people.
>2: BHVR doesn't believe that 4 person SWFs running clock call outs are common enough that they need that much attention.
Some survivors will use communications better than others, some survivors have more skill than others... not sure what your point is. We are talking about balance and fairness in a game.
>3: Language issues, DbD is played worldwide and on some servers people speak different languages. Having players set a language preference would slow down matchmaking times/accuracy, which they likely view as more important.
We have all heard this before, it is all a mix match but this is matchmaking which is still being tweaked to this day not a problem.
>4: It would ruin the theme of the game. The game's concept is about survivors being on their own/not knowing what's going on. That's changed over time, but it hasn't changed completely. BHVR doesn't care about creating a perfectly balanced game. They'll emphasize theme and fun over absolute balance.
Opinon which is healthy but fun is obtained through the game being fair do you not agree?
>5: Giving comms to a group of randoms would frequently be a mess even if everyone was trying. Comp teams have the comms down to the bare minimum to communicate messages, that wouldn't be replicated just throwing comms on for everyone. I don't want to hear someone talking about what gen they are starting and miss the sound of Ghostface nearby.
People adapt and improve, with communications the positives can outweigh the negatives. Of course the voice comms chat level can be increased/decreased.
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Have to say this is your opinion but having comms or not, it should be a choice in game whether you think it improves you or not.
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Only partially. The fact is that comms won't lead to consistent communication, and it's pretty well evidenced. It is my opinion that comms aren't a good idea overall, but my opinion is reflective of that fact.
It's also your opinion that it should be a choice. I'd contest that- why should it be a choice when the benefits it'd provide are pretty slim and the downsides it'd present are pretty compelling?
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I should mention many positives aren't being talked about such as making new friends and new SWFs being created
If lets say the game isn't balanced for SWFs on communications and is balanced at solo or somewhere in between then it is fair to say that having an unbalanced/unfair advantage over others makes it more fun, something that people would argue to keep.
Having communications or turning it off, what are the negatives and good for the fairness of the game
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This game isn’t balanced around SWF with comms who actually make up less than 4% of all players. The devs have repeatedly stated that they balance around pretty much all levels of skill. That’s why some killers (Trapper, Legion, Doctor, etc) are ‘weaker’ than others (Nurse, Blight, Spirit, etc); it’s intentional & by design. If the game were balanced around the upper echelons of players it would be Death Garden 2.0 which died for that very reason. And they would still need to ‘balance’ around top-tier killers, not 4-man SWFs.
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>Only partially. The fact is that comms won't lead to consistent communication, and it's pretty well evidenced. It is my opinion that comms aren't a good idea overall, but my opinion is reflective of that fact.
Consistent communication isn't what is being talked about, compare it to skill with your keyboard or controller. Some people are better at it, some aren't. Balance leads to fairness and fun in games.
>It's also your opinion that it should be a choice. I'd contest that- why should it be a choice when the benefits it'd provide are pretty slim and the downsides it'd present are pretty compelling?
If I offered you a salt or pepper with your meal it is your choice whether it has upsides or downsides, the choice is healthy.
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I don't know why the argument, that moderation isn't feasible is just brushed off like that. It's really very straightforward and simple.
The following assumes bhvr would generally welcome voice chat as a standard. As a company they have set their own standards for what kind of language and what level of offense they deem inacceptable. When the line is crossed an account gets banned. If you offer a communications-feature as part of your base game you have to be able to enforce your own rules. Bhvr seems to not think they would be able to enforce their rules in voice chat. - Be that because they would need too many people working customer support or because it would be too hard to prove - or both, or something else entirely. It doesn't matter. The bottom line is: they don't think it's feasible for one reason or the other so it's not a base-game feature.
What premades do outside the features within the game is the premades' business; bhvr is not accountable for insults people hurl at each other via discord or steam chats or whatever.
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If consistent communication isn't what you expect to gain from voice comms, what is? What could affect the balance of the game other than the tool being used for its one purpose?
It's also not like skill with your keyboard or controller because it's completely out of your control, for the record.
To the last point: Salt and pepper have a benefit, they are seasonings. Voice comms have no such guaranteed benefit.
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>This game isn’t balanced around SWF with comms who actually make up less than 4% of all players.
I'm sorry but in my opinion that is crazy to suggest those figures, please show me a link to prove this.
>The devs have repeatedly stated that they balance around pretty much all levels of skill. That’s why some killers (Trapper, Legion, Doctor, etc) are ‘weaker’ than others (Nurse, Blight, Spirit, etc). If the game were balanced around the upper echelons of players it would be Death Garden 2.0 which died for that very reason. And they would still need to ‘balance’ around top-tier killers, not 4-man SWFs.
I'm not sure why you are talking about balance around skill when this is about balance and fairness with communications.
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I'll start at the bottom of your comments.
Opinon which is healthy but fun is obtained through the game being fair do you not agree?No, at least not absolutely. Yes, I don't want anything in the game that is too broken, but fun outweighs balance. I'd rather have an assortment of maps that add variability to the game, even if some of those maps tilt one way or the other.
I have zero interest playing the games with comms. If they were introduced I'd play a lot less. Is it a little annoying when playing killer that sometimes all 4 survivors have an advantage? Yes, but I wouldn't trade that for a comm based survivor experience.
One could also argue a positive point that it creates new friends and becomes more fun which I must admit not many are doing which is odd but perhaps from being in solo queue. This only has positives regarding balance.One could argue, but I don't think its even close to true true.
We live in a world where people may get offended, simply mute and move on or don't mute and communicate further. The idea that speech should be policed is a very odd, there will always be differences with people.BHVR is saying they don't want players to have to deal with certain content. Having seen some chats in other games, I appreciate it. If you don't that's fine.
Some survivors will use communications better than others, some survivors have more skill than others... not sure what your point is. We are talking about balance and fairness in a game.Balance means how the game is designed. It goes SWF>Killer>Soloq - adding comms won't actually change that. Soloq would still be at the weakest level, meaning efforts to balance the game won't really change.
We have all heard this before, it is all a mix match but this is matchmaking which is still being tweaked to this day not a problem.I have no idea what you mean.
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It would take resources and time for BHVR to implement, and they have zero upsides for this move. Theres no money. There's no benefit compared to the game currently.
Your 'choice' in this is admirable, but if you want to comms, just get some comms. This is a dead horse you're continuously kicking.
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>If consistent communication isn't what you expect to gain from voice comms, what is? What could affect the balance of the game other than the tool being used for its one purpose?
Consistent communication isn't affective communication is, e.g. i had eggs for tea vs it's a ghostface at the killershack
>It's also not like skill with your keyboard or controller because it's completely out of your control, for the record.
Not sure what you are talking about here
>To the last point: Salt and pepper have a benefit, they are seasonings. Voice comms have no such guaranteed benefit.
"Voice comms have no such guaranteed benefits"? example: "killer shack window is trapped" doesn't have any benefit or "shack pallet gone"... have I misunderstood you here?
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Yes, you've misunderstood my crucial point.
You won't get comms like "Ghostface at shack" or "shack window is trapped" from voice comms. That's the entire reason they won't help solo queue in any meaningful way. To get comms like that, everyone would need to have the ability, desire, and language to use the voice comms at all, which isn't guaranteed. In most of your games, you're gonna have people who don't have a mic, or who don't care to use the mic, or who don't speak the same language as you so it doesn't matter whether they want to communicate or not.
You won't get consistent information in the sense that you won't get any information unless the stars align. If you play in EU, that's dramatically unlikely. If you play in NA, it's a little more plausible, but still not reliable. That's why I say it's out of your control, because it's up to chance if your teammates can use comms or understand you when you use comms.
What you want isn't voice comms. You want people who'll communicate with you. The game can't give you that with any additions, voice comms or otherwise; you have to get it from SWF.
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4% are SWF is the craziest stat I've heard to be honest, at least in my games where every game you are likely to have at least a swf.
Ah, reading further here you are talking about a 4 man swf. Would be interesting if this is from a survery or from actual stats.
So you're saying 64% are swf, making either 64% swf unbalanced or 36% solo and unbalanced.
You mention running kindred which is unfair as this takes up a valueable perk slot which isn't needed with comms.
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>"...fun outweighs balance. I'd rather have an assortment of maps that add variability to the game, even if some of those maps tilt one way or the other."
My point is that balance creates fun for all, some people could have fun using communications and the odds are more in your favour but less for the other players. Maps are part of the game whilst communications currently is not.
>I have zero interest playing the games with comms. If they were introduced I'd play a lot less. Is it a little annoying when playing killer that sometimes all 4 survivors have an advantage? Yes, but I wouldn't trade that for a comm based survivor experience.
I imagine you play survivor as playing killer does not require comms but this has been covered in that you can mute some or all.
>"Friends"-One could argue, but I don't think its even close to true true.
Opinon, but even if 1% untrue.
>Offence-"BHVR is saying they don't want players to have to deal with certain content. Having seen some chats in other games, I appreciate it. If you don't that's fine."
We are all 18+ on this game, I'm sure we would rather not have to deal with certain content but whether I do or don't is irrelevant as life is life and improvements can always be made such as what you have said about other games, it can be done for those easily offended or unsure how mute works.
"Balance means how the game is designed. It goes SWF>Killer>Soloq - adding comms won't actually change that. Soloq would still be at the weakest level, meaning efforts to balance the game won't really change."
We are talking about balance, if someone has a tool such as communications then everyone in the game should be at least offered that tool for fairness and balance. You are suggesting Soloq would be at the same level which I disagree as we head towards a more balanced game of Killer = SWF &/ solo. If you have a leak and can turn it into drips you do it even if it isn't perfect as perfection takes time.
"I have no idea what you mean."
You mentioned matchmaking time, I recall I mentioned this is always being tweaked and languages, skill levels etc would just be part of it. They can change it to whatever they want for timing preferences to what is acceptable for a trial.
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I don't agree there is no money as new content is always being produced, however ensuring your chicken lays golden eggs needs work to be done and lets face it, it is a feature most other games have.
You could argue why other changes that have been done such as cross-platform, was that needed. Not really but other games had it and is a good feature that improves the game.
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It was needed. It combines their player bases and makes more money. I'm sure you can figure out how that works.
Adding this feature simply because other games have means very little. It won't make them more money, therefore they won't do it.
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I'm sure you could explain
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Sure. Adding the two pools makes matchmaking a lot faster and diverse.
This is enjoyable :)
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Id also like to add that with the abundance of other chat programs like discord and such, its even less likely BHVR will implement this. The game is already being played with comms. The programs are free. Solo survivors can hop on discord and find a group in seconds.
There just isnt a reason business-wise that BHVR would add this imo.
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No like 52% were solo and the remainder were a form of SWF (2, 3, or 4 with 4 being the least common and 2-man being the most common setup). And tbh it’s not unfair to ask survivors to run perks for a specific benefit.
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Do you really think I as a solo Q player want to be on coms with a load of Toxic randos? No, thank you. Nor do I want the game to be balanced around it as it wouldn't solve anything.
The only thing that still needs to be done imo is to mimic the mobile version with a dedicated 'ill go for the save' emote and you're sorted.
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The only real reason for not having in game voicechat and many other things: Server / Service costs. They need to either set their own voice servers, which would cost them money, or pay for a voice chat service which would also cost them money.
Simple as that.
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For some people moderation in chat is important, when you have mute (for life) it is very simple to do.
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following that logic the chat filter shouldn't exist. You can hide the chat if you so wish. - My take away from that is that "you can opt out of the communication" is not sufficient.
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This might just be me, but Id love if the game has Proximity Chat, it would create more funny moments.
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It was in one of the review surveys they asked a few questions about it and i think it was somewhere between 70-90% of people said they weren't interested or would just toggle it off.
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People who want voice comms can find it already. Please don’t force everyone else to wallow in a screaming, slur-filled cesspool.
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Every balance change improves their product, they are trying to make this game fun for profit.
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A lot of words that have already been covered in that the feature at it's core is a bonus that can be optionally used... how on earth is that a bad thing?
Your opinion on how it is used is similar to skill on how it is used, some will tell you about the killer some will not.
I do love the people who are offered a free product that benefits them and then say what if it makes me fat... well don't eat it but this product is healthy
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Strange as I could say the opposite that and not post a link as well.....
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I think we covered this, if you don't want to eat the healthy product you don't have to but it is healthy for the game, fair and balanced.
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But if I have a full swf team I can ditch an information build for a far stronger chase/anti tunnel build making me have an objective advantage over a solo Q player who is forced to run an info build.
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lol i literally did the survey, it was like 9 months ago.
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lol?
Very strange as I fill those in... except the last one which had the strange habit of asking the same question with single different item from the last question.
This means you are making things up, also I found it interesting the no BHVR representative could address this question either... odd thinking about this being the solution to all the numerous 'balance' changes :\
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Oh hey, I never saw this. Well, might as well respond since the post's on the front page again--
I think the major misunderstanding is that you're still thinking of voice comms as a personal matter. It's up to your skill and preference how well you can use it, right? If that's not your position, my apologies, but it's how you're coming across to me so far.
The problem is that it's not a personal matter. In order for voice comms to positively affect balance, everyone needs to be able to use them - or at the very least, most players need to be able to use them. Your personal skill and preference with the mic doesn't matter if your three teammates are a guy who speaks a different language to everyone else, a guy who doesn't have a mic to begin with, and a guy that needs to be muted immediately because they're either blaring loud music or live in a house with other people who are loudly arguing.
That's the reality of voice comms, that happens much more frequently than everyone being able to communicate. At that point, when you're in a game like that... nothing has changed, right? You're still in the exact same position as before: The quality of your games in solo queue are completely random based on factors you can't control. In a wider sense, nothing has changed for the game, either: Some players can communicate on voice, and most players can't, with the gap between them making balance very difficult.
It'd be a lot of time and effort put into introducing a feature most players won't reliably get to use, and that'll force most players into the annoying chore of muting whoever in their match is being obnoxious without any positive benefit. It's not a good idea; it categorically won't address the actual problem, and it wouldn't have any other benefits to make up for that, not reliably. It's net negatives all the way down.
To your point earlier in the thread about making friends and forming new SWF -- I would support functionality in the game that actually does that, like a guild system or some form of party-matching system. Voice comms, though, wouldn't do it.
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Not gonna lie hearing stuff like:
"FFS Kate, only survived less than 30 seconds in chase. This guy is pathetic, how do you lose to him? Oh My God... you suck... just uninstall"
"I'm about you get this flashlight save and ruin this man's whole career... Oooooooh, what a noob! This guy sucks!"
"Hey Spirit... let me spank that ass... oooh she is angry... looks like she wants to tunnel, I wouldn't mind some tunneling myself..."
Might just ruin the atmosphere just a smidge.
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"I think the major misunderstanding is that you're still thinking of voice comms as a personal matter. It's up to your skill and preference how well you can use it, right? If that's not your position, my apologies, but it's how you're coming across to me so far."
Please explain what you are talking about with this 'personal matter' you keep mentioning?0 -
Please read original post
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Nobody has actually answered this question… how very strange
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Found the answer… why on earth is this hidden in feedback and discussions?
This was posted for general discussion
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It's how you keep responding to me- you keep highlighting that it's an optional thing players could choose to not use, and that how well someone can use it is also a matter of their personal skill.
My point is that choice and skill don't matter. There are a lot of reasons why someone cannot use voice comms to communicate, and the chances of one of those reasons being present in every game is very very high. It won't do the thing you want it to do because a lot of players would be prevented from being able to use it.
Let me ask this, it might help me make this more clear: What benefit do you think voice comms would have?
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"My point is that choice and skill don't matter."
I'd have to disagree, choice is very important especially today where lack of choice grows more and more.
I'm not sure why you bring skill into this discussion as it nothing to do with communications?
"There are a lot of reasons why someone cannot use voice comms to communicate, and the chances of one of those reasons being present in every game is very very high. It won't do the thing you want it to do because a lot of players would be prevented from being able to use it."
You are not at all clear, perhaps you'd like to give an example?
"Let me ask this, it might help me make this more clear: What benefit do you think voice comms would have?"
In game voice comms is a missing QOL since SWF was implemented. A couple of easy example would be that it allows people make friends and brings balance by not allowing other to have a unfair advantages over them.
Think of communications like a scooter…
If I offered you a scooter in a race and you refused the scooter then you still have the same ability to run or walk in the race, to be against to be offered a scooter is a little odd don't you think?0 -
In order:
1: I didn't bring skill into it, you did, in a previous response. It was a while ago though, I don't blame you for not remembering.
When I say choice and skill don't matter, I mean that you don't HAVE any choice in whether you get to use voice comms a lot of the time. I agree, choice is important. You won't have any with voice comms, though, because not only do YOU need to be able to use the voice comms system - something largely out of your control - but so do your teammates.
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2: I've given multiple examples, but I'll go over them again just to be safe.
Example A: Four survivors in a trial, in the EU region. One survivor speaks English, two speak Spanish, and the last speaks French. They do not get to use the voice comms to communicate for reasons completely beyond their control.
Example B: Four survivors in a trial, in the US region. One survivor is trying to use the voice comms properly, one survivor doesn't have a mic, one survivor has everyone muted by personal preference, and the fourth has to be muted by everyone else because they're blaring loud music. Nobody gets to use the voice comms to communicate for reasons outside their individual control.
Example C: Four survivors in a trial, in any region where they all speak the same language. One survivors is trying to use the voice comms properly, but has to mute everyone because of some kind of harassment, bigotry, or other kind of toxicity. Nobody gets to use the voice comms to communicate AND that game is a flat worse experience than a game that just didn't have voice comms enabled at all.
Example D: Four survivors in a trial. Three of them are in a SWF + using Discord to talk, muting the game's voice comms. The solo queue survivor is left with nothing.
The likelihood of any specific example here happening may be low (maybe), but the likelihood of you seeing something LIKE these is very high. This isn't a hypothetical, this is how it works in every game that has voice chat - the only difference is that most of those games don't require voice chat for exchanging information.
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3: As I outline above, you don't get that from voice chat. Voice chat will not let you make friends and it will not balance solo queue. It just won't do that, not consistently. It's complete random chance with a low likelihood of actually doing the basic thing you'd want it to do.
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Finally, the scooter analogy. Voice comms in DBD aren't like that because in that analogy, only I have to make the individual choice to use the scooter, and then when I make that choice I'm guaranteed to have a scooter. Voice comms don't work that way, they require multiple people to be able and willing to make the choice too or I don't get anything.
I don't want voice comms. I want systems that will ACTUALLY give me that kind of information consistently.
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