Playing against coordinated SWFS is a miserable experience
I've been sitting here for ages trying to find the right way to word all this so that it doesn't come across as whiny or anything like that to explain something that has plagued me about DbD for ages: It quite literally makes me feel physically miserable.
I don't expect to win every match but going against a SWF is one of the most stressful things I experience in gaming. All the pressure is on you as the Killer and a coordinated SWF is a nightmare to deal with and they just make me want to quit the game and not play due to the stress it puts me under.
I do not think survivor mains realize just how insanely stressful being the Killer is, especially when you are going against a full four man SWF that are communicating over voice comms. Those matches make me physically anxious and stressed out. That is the primary reason I hate playing against SWFs: How can I enjoy the game when it is stressing me out and affecting me physically?
Now you may ask "How can a game stress you out that much?". The answer is simple: I suffer from both a major depressive disorder and a generalized anxiety disorder and thus I have a hard time disassociating from things that I logically know shouldn't be stressing me out and making me anxious but still do. Furthermore, when I am in a match that isn't stressful and I don't feel like I'm struggling to do anything, I can have a ton of fun and the stress isn't really well. Even if a few survivors escape, if I had fun it was still a blast.
There I times I have to wonder if BHVR themselves know how stressful they have made things for Killers at high tier play due to the prevalence of SWFs and how so many Killers simply are not viable at high MMR play.
I do not enjoy playing against Seal Team Six as they get generator after generator done and I struggle to get hooks or win chases because they are somehow god tier loopers and body blockers. Games are first and foremost are supposed to be fun and playing against a SWF is not fun. There's a reason I keep hoping to either see how many survivors in the lobby are part of a premade or for playing against SWFs to be a matchmaking choice I can opt out of as a Killer.
Comments
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Sorry to hear that.
But they will never nerf SWFs because it makes zero sense to punish people for playing with friends. Not all SWF teams are that good and only 5% of playerbase at high mmr.
And your suggestion will also never happen because no killer player will go against SWF teams and this will kill matchmaking for both sides. Solo survivors will get fast matches. SWF teams will never get match. And killers will get insanely long queues because they removed all SWF teams from matchmaking.
So this is not going to happen.
And you should not play a game if it is affects you that much with bad way. Breaks will help you, you can play different games.
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You know, I always see that said in response to making SWFs opt-in: That no Killer would go against them. Almost like they aren't fun to play against.
Perhaps make it so that the opt out only applies to a full four man SWF.
As I said: When a match is going fairly evenly with the survivors getting gens done and I'm getting downs/hooks, things can be a blast. It's those lopsided matches that stress me out that are at issue.
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And limiting it with 4-man SWF is still creating problem? Almost all killers will use this option and they will not go against 4-man SWF. So those SWF teams will not get any match.
You are just banning people from game without actually banning them. Your solution makes zero sense and by business-wise, this never going to happen. There is no company will do thing like that.
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You cannot punish people for playing with friends.
This “opt in” matchmaking would kill SWF, which would in turn kill the game.
It’s never going to happen. Perhaps you should look into finding a more relaxed game to play if DBD stresses you out that much. It’s counterintuitive.
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If you can't "punish people for playing with friends", why are SWFs allowed to punish Killers with an unfair advantage? At least give the Killer in a full SWF match a better BP incentive to make up for the extra struggle such matches cause.
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I am sorry that you have this kind of experience and effect on you. Psychological disorders are no joke so I can imagine what kind of weight it brings with it.
From a player perspective I do not align with what you said though. People tend to think that they played against a super strong SWF group it's not always the case. We cannot prove what survivor group is a SWF. Going further even IF people play SWF they don't have to be good. I am sure most of them just play together because of fun and they are friends. There is no issue in that.
Going even further, most players are not good. That applies to survivor and killers. My tips are:
- Either play strong Builds (With Map Offerings etc.)
- Either play the best Killers
- Either go onto a comp discord server and receive specific tips or even play against actuall super strong swf. Sounds crazy, but you will improve and notice that your pub match are not the same like these one. And I hope those kind of matches don't trigger you since it's more of a fun-practice kind of match.
- Either reduce your own expactions and play for chases. That's what I do on demo f.e. I love to have good survivors with fun loops and I don't mind the outcome in those matches.
- Either dodge certain loobies. I am sure most people don't survivors under specific terms. Either p100, high hours or anything else.
- Or and I don't mean it any hurtful or rude way, take a break from the game. It's suppose to be fun and if you don't enjoy then stop playing it.
SWF is not going anywhere and the suggestion about "SWF Matchmaking" or "Comp Matchmaking" is not working. Splitting the playerbase is already hurtful and people shouldn't be punished for playing together. Either players simply improve by themselfs instead of putting excuses in front of their bad performance or some adjustments towards specific killers, maps or perks depending on what makes sense. That's all I can really say to this.
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They don't punish killer? They just played better than killer. You already defeated countless SWFs without even noticing. You just remember bad memories because that's human thing.
And just side note: I called SWF so many times by killers but i was just solo survivor. SWF is just excuse for loses at this point. You would lose those matches even if they were solo because simply they were just better players than you.
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You cannot compare literally banning people from getting into games with you having a stressful time because a group of survivors is giving you a tougher challenge.
SWF’s are not “punishing you” and they do not have an “unfair” advantage. They are literally just playing with friends, which is completely intended and fair play, as are comms.
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I think it would be nice for the killer to know that they are gonna play against a 2,3 or 4 man.
This would at least give some information to the killer.
It's an indirect nerf to swf without nerfing swf.
Sure, we have the problem of lobby dodging, but isnt that already a problem that needs to he looked at?
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I think that it's not a good idea. Like you said, people would lobby dodge even more and what is the solution to that? Force players to stay? The math is not mathening.
SWF are players that are playing together. The solution is not them to be punished just because people want an easy win. 💀
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What else would you do?
SWF is the biggest imbalance in dbd and the hole bhvr dug themselves when they introduced it.
It can't be nerfed in game because it would punish people that just want to play with friends. But if played at a high enough level, it provides the biggest power trip I've seen in multiplayer games this far. Almost no killer stands any chance.
I think there should be something done about that without making the soloq experience worse. Giving the killer information, so that they could spice up their load out is the best idea currently available.
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Dodge lobby increase MMR is my brilliant idea. Want to play an easy game? Here is a harder match.
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I'm not gonna repeat myself and I again, disagree with you.
There is my answer.
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my only issue with facing coordinated SWFs of good survivors is that Im never prepared for that.
I love facing good SWFs on the singularity because they're actually making up a decent challenge, but on most other killers facing premades is boring bc you can't win without hard tunnelling/camping, most killers are simply incapable of holding their ground past certain point. it doesn't help that im not playing other killers as good as I play singularity, so im at double disadvantage.
I would really like a separate button in the matchmaking that is something like "Find 4 MAN deathsquad (+300% points)". I would press it every time I need a warm up as singu.
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I faced the same SWF twice in a row. As no slowdown Trapper
- First match, I used Brown/Yellow addons. A few hooks but 4 escape. Post chat was just a single line "lol"
- Second match, I saw those 4 same names, I changed to Honing stone. And 4K. Post chat was "there is something on your teeth"
Its insane that changing a single addon impact the strength that much. I never dodge lobby, losing is fine for me, its just I dont know its SWF to at least use better addons.
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That's why I'm suggesting to give a little information to the killer to even the playing field a bit. Swf has an advantage. Even if they are not good. They still know that they can rely on their team. They still know each other's perks.
Giving the killer the option to be better prepared would help I feel.
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So your answer is basicly sweat every game or dodge?
What?
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You know this would just lead to Killers cherrypicking even more games. Killers dont use the Pregame-Lobby to prepare, they use it to decide if they want easier games or not.
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The answer is to not get bent out of shape by losing a single game.
I never understand this mentality that losing a match is somehow an indicator of imbalance or something that needs correcting.
Even the top, #1 players lose sometimes. And, spoiler alert, despite what people think internally, the average forum user here is not the entity's gift to DbD and is very far from being 'the top'. In most cases, it's just ego and people who can't handle the idea that they might just not be the 'max MMR god tier skilled player' they claim to be.
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And I said that?
I just proposed to give the killer a little information about the upcoming match, so that they can go in better prepared.
Playing the match out is still up to the players.
I have no problem with losing. I try to learn from mistakes. But it's not my mistake, that I didn't know if the team I went against was a 4man death squad or a soloq fun party.
I believe, that many players come here to talk about their losses because matches where you lost are more engrained in your memory than the ones you win. At least for the most part.
Many people seem to have problems with losing , which is sad but understandable. It's a game. Wanting to win is understandable. Calling the game unbalanced because the other side won in a game where multiple mistakes happened is absolutely wrong.
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I use it to read forums. I mostly don't even look at the team I'm going against. I play every match.
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It's christmas, not April first. Stop this foolery. 💀
My suggestion to anyone with that mindset is to either work on yourself (Mindset, gameplay), play sweaty if the win is so important to you, dodge lobbies or take a break. Because newsflash: Most people are actually not even facing that scary bully squad. Most of SWF are simply just friends and people are not as good as they think they are. And I just gonna point out once again; Balancing is still necessary. Combos like FTP + Buckle Up should not exist but that is general balancing. Let people play with friends and get over yourself.
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No, you didn't say that, which is why your original post is called a false dilemma. You offered two options and asked them which was the correct one, when there is a perfectly valid third option available.
I'm glad you don't get ego involved in the game, that's a good thing. But that absolutely isn't true of most forum users here.
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I recently got a 7 hook / 1k game as singularity against 4man and the only reason it happened is because i didn't realize this was 4 man until we were halfway into the match & I was not using soma's photo for that reason (I ran plant fibers instead).
even so, this game felt perfectly winnable and the only reason I lost it was because I made really bad mistakes at the start due to me underestimating the survivors.
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Dude....
You dont get me...
At all.
I play every match. I play against everybody. I have no problem with losing in dbd. I main pig.
I tend to try to learn from my mistakes when I lose. I can't learn from something I could not see coming. I don't want to smash every soloq fun team. I dont want to be destroyed by the 4man death squad. WHICH IS NOT AS UNCOMMON AS MANY PEOPLE SAY IT IS.
I love myself a bully squad. The tend to do a lot of dumb stuff, which is right up my alley. They've grown incredibly rare over the last few years. Shove them all in my lobbies. I'm waiting.
What I'm for is fairer gameplay on both ends. Swf is the biggest imbalance in dbd. There is no arguing that.
I'm just looking for answers to fix a problem.
And I dont think your way to go is the correct one. Sorry to disagree.
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I don't have a huge ego. I despise people that think that they are better than others. I know what I can and can't do in my matches. That's what I'm basing my arguments on.
I just think that lobby dodging should be saved another way. Swf has a ton of extra information. I think it's time the killer got some additional info in that case as well.
Does that lead to healthier gameplay overall? Maybe not. There's a lot of weird and unkind players out there.
Would it help at least a bit? I think so yes.
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You are totally fine to disagree with me - I respect that and we don't have to align within our opinions. I personally just don't think that SWF people should be punished for playing together nor should they be called out. We need additional balancing options like changing certain killers, perks or maps to close these gaps.
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Recently a group of friends and I who all play DBD had some customs games over the Christmas period as we were all able to play for the first time in ages. We all took turns playing killer vs 4 man SWF on comms. We played normally, no memeing but no tryharding either. Not one of us managed more than a 2K. If we’d have employed “strategy” maybe things would have been different but a) who wants to do that in customs and b) most complaints you see on this forum and elsewhere revolve around killer “strategies” so it’s a vicious circle. Tunnel someone out early in case it’s a competent and efficient SWF? Congratulations you just ruined the game for a bunch of solos. Play using the survivor rule book and go for 12 hooks with no strategy? Merry Christmas, here’s some bags at the exit gate for you.
SWF is the big bad wolf of this game. It should never be removed because removing the ability to play with friends would be insanely dumb. But there are clear downsides to it being in this game and honestly I think the spectre of SWF looms over a lot of discussions that take place regarding balance. Even if coordinated 4 person squads are “rare” (not as rare as people think in my experience), playing against them does feel like taking a knife to a gun fight- especially if they’re playing to win. If a SWF wants to win and you haven’t brought the right killer and aren’t willing to do what is necessary to win, you will lose.
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A big thing Im seeing here is people want to know before the match if the teams will be sweaty or playful. This is a nice notion tbh. But it would break the game if it was just given to killers that its a SWF in lobby. Really wish the lobby didn't exist tbh. Just load the match.
If we give SWF info pre-match, killers would sweat. There would be no other option. But, why would they sweat? They could just lobby dodge. Im sure a few killers love that challenge, I sure do. But most players would skip it for an easier win/chill game. Dbd -is- supposed to be a chill party game. Everyone here has turned it into some competitive 'I deserve to win' BS. Grow up.This game isnt designed to be competitive. Its still a party game by design. And being a 'game', its supposed to be fun. If you're getting stressed out to the point of whining on the forums, and prefacing it with 'I dont wanna whine or anything, BUT', then find a new game. Bite that bullet and just find something better for yourself. You're worth it and deserve a good time gaming. That's not happening here. So move on imo.
The idea of removing SWFS or being told its a SWF is just entitlement behind a 'Its for balance and fairness' mirror. Its old, annoying, and said time and time again. Play the game, get better when you get stomped by learning, and find out what you can do to improve.
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I don't think it's as big of an issue that you make it out to be. The game is a 1v4 asymmetrical game. Right out of the gates, the 1v4 shows that the game can never and will never be fair in any way, shape or form. Of course the killer is going to struggle more against a team that works together than a team that runs around doing side objectives and barely touching gens. It's only natural.
You even said yourself that you're playing at high mmr. Which is the top percentile of players. That's not going to be easy. If top tier play isn't fun for you, then there's nothing you can really do tbh unless you get into the mindset that you're trying to improve instead of win the game.
If the game stresses you out that much, maybe take a break from killer? Focus on your mental health. If the game isn't fun, then you shouldn't play it. I'm certainly taking a break because I'm tired of everyone having such a bad attitude in this game lol.
The post also gives off the vibes that you just ran into one of these groups of players and you're kind of stressed out? You had a bad match and you've come here to cool your head? Unfortunately that will happen and you just have to calm down. Chill out after a highly intense match, go drink some water, go have a walk, cool off.
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This is all so perfectly said. You sir, have a correct opinion haha
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Yeah this is facts, TCSM had the same issue. They had to remove seeing partied players because queue times would take forever.
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This game is not built to be fair. There's going to be imbalances everywhere, and there is currently. You can't try to fix everything.
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High tier players are at that level because they want to win, try hard to win, and often do win. Why would you expect games at that level to be anything other than difficult? If you're in high MMR then presumably you play the same way. I saw in Pulsar's thread that you mention tunnelling being the best strategy for a killer, which I don't care if you do or don't tunnel, but you might find the dev post below relevant to your situation. Particularly the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs.
Also, I have diagnosed depression and severe generalized anxiety disorder too. I couldn't imagine any form of competitive play being healthy for me, and the energy of high tier play would make it worse. Setting zero expectations on myself and not caring about winning keeps me at an MMR I find relaxing more often than not.
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Swf is one thing.
It’s another when people pretend that the impact that a duo or trio has on the game is minimal compared to solo queue.
Sure swf can’t be nerfed, but this group is probably the one of the main reasons why players just tunnel and camp at 5 gens. If the game is full of bad players as the narrative goes, then it’s more likely for an average Killer to lose to a swf than 4 “competent solo queue players”.
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I suffer from both a major depressive disorder and a generalized anxiety disorder and thus I have a hard time disassociating from things that I logically know shouldn't be stressing me out and making me anxious but still do.Are you capable of playing any type of multiplayer vs. style game? I understand the difficulty of anxiety, but I'm not sure what makes DbD unique. It's a multiplayer game meaning that roughly half the time you should be losing, inevitably some of those times it will be a devastating loss.
I do not think survivor mains realize just how insanely stressful being the Killer is, especially when you are going against a full four man SWF that are communicating over voice commsEveryone is different on this. I'll play killer against a 4 person P100 group and have a great time, as survivor it feels like my heart is going to explode even when we're running the killer in circles. Most people find one of the roles really stressful, but people disagree on which.
I do not enjoy playing against Seal Team Six as they get generator after generator done and I struggle to get hooks or win chases because they are somehow god tier loopers and body blockers. Games are first and foremost are supposed to be fun and playing against a SWF is not fun. There's a reason I keep hoping to either see how many survivors in the lobby are part of a premade or for playing against SWFs to be a matchmaking choice I can opt out of as a Killer.I don't get a lot of fun being matched against a Nurse or Blight who have four survivors on the ground bleeding out before half a gen is even finished. I don't enjoy being in a soloq where we bring zero items and the killer runs double Iri. It's the nature of any multiplayer game that sometimes you are going to get crushed and DbD's design allows a mix of sweaty options (parts of which I'd change if I could, but its a both sides issue).
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Ah, now are we blaming people playing with their friends that Killers tunnel?
I guarantee you, the vast majority of Killers dont care if they have 4 Solos against them, they will tunnel. Currently every Blight is running the strong Add Ons and yet, they still tunnel. When we had the Eruption-Meta, where you basically had to try to lose a game as Killer, Killers tunneled.
Dont blame people blaming with their friends for the fact that Killers realized that removing someone out of the game early will result in a guaranteed win.
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People who want to tunnel will tunnel regardless of who their opponents are.
After all, it is a strategy: removing someone from the game as soon as possible creates a 1v3 scenario, which is far easier for a killer to handle than a 1v4.
But this strategy is frowned upon. So it is their choice to do it or not, a choice which honestly isn't affected by the presence of a SWF group.
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I honestly think that the best solution that BHVR could do for this stuff is simply the same thing that a lot of other game devs do which is show an icon for anyone who's in a group together in the starting lobby so that if a killer wants to they can just leave. It's not denying survivor SWFs the ability to enter matches and it's allowing killers the option to just simply leave if they see a 3-4 man SWF.
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My ultimate problem is that SWFs tend to be extremely poor winners and will not just god damn leave when they open the exit gates because they just have to rub salt in the wound that they won and will hold the game hostage and stand in the gates until the EGC is about to end unless you go over to chase them out just so they can teabag you on the way out.
I refuse to reward that behavior and will usually try to find unbroken walls or dropped pallets to smash for BP. Otherwise I just wish I could leave the match at that point without being penalized and get my BP instead of having to waste my time on people who need to grow up.
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I haven't seen much on TCM in a bit since it mostly died down now, but I've seen many games with this same type of system receive hardly any complaints about it because it's a perfectly valid system due to it not effecting direct gameplay and it just gives players an option to leave or not.
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DBD Forums- “We need to hide prestige because lobby dodging is such an issue!”
Also DBD forums- “We need to let killers know if they have a SWF in their lobby!”
Lmao wut… if you think letting killers see premade groups won’t result in a pandemic of dodging, you’re on that zaza.
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Simple solution: Give the Killer an enhanced BP incentive when dealing with a premade. Give me +200% BP to face off against a full four man SWF and I will stick around.
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Why should you gain Triple-BPs just because you play against a group of friends?
That they are in an SWF does not mean that they are suddenly good at the game. In general - 4 bad players solo will not be much better as 4 bad players in an SWF. And 4 good players in an SWF would be also good when playing Solo.
And how does a BP-incentive help with all the other stuff you have written in your opening post?
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If you show the killers in lobby if they are facing a swf they will constantly dodge or sweat to no end.
So you are damning swf to wait longer and longer matches to finally play against sweaty nurses and blights tunneling at 5 gens.
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Or… just play the game because it’s not that serious. Swf does not = good. I have mopped the floor with p400 swf’s who were either just messing around having fun or were too altruistic, while on the other hand had solo q teams give me a run for my money.
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I completely understand the arguments for SWF here. Playing with friends should never be punished, or reward the killer for playing against a SWF. It makes no sense in a modern multiplayer game not to be able to lobby up with some pals.
HOWEVER, I think coordinated SWF is downplayed like crazy around here. When I play killer against a SWF, more often than not I get extremely good coordinated 4 stack SWFs compared to bad 2-4 man SWFs because of even simple location callouts. I can go on a losing streak playing goofy builds and not focusing on kills, then when I go to play normally or swap to a killer I rarely play I'll get the sweatiest survivor 4 man SWFs with hook breaks, perks for punishing pickups or sometimes even downs, survivors built for ignoring them on the ground for other survivors being a problem nearby, offerings, and being as toxic as possible in endgame chat every single time. When I play survivor with friends, I can use my knowledge of killers I main/play a lot to do callouts and on-the-fly explanations of their powers and their weaknesses with no real effort.
It's really a mixed bag. You can't take away SWF because it's genuinely fun to play with friends and should be part of an online game. But you can't make killer feel like a punching bag, the entire point of the game is how intimidating and scary (depending on your definition) they are. I feel as if MMR needs further adjusting, some perk and loadout combinations and better map balancing across the board.
Edit: I do hope that 5v5 thing becomes a reality, because that would be THE best place for SWF. 4 survivors doing their best with a killer ally in tow.
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Maybe DBD isn’t a good game for you considering everything you have already shared.
A good place to start would be for BHVR to stop with the ridiculous killer/survivor double standards. Make it so no can see the opponent, or their prestige or whatever someone is inevitably going to whine about.
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I mean playing DBD at a high level is miserable in general. It's genrush vs tunnelling which isn't fun for anyone.
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So on top of the killer being able to see who we are and what we're bringing you to be able to know if we're a squad too oh yeah not mention to also be able to see us the entire match.
Post edited by BoxGhost on0
