I can't be the only one who hates Buckle Up.
Buckle up + For the people is one of the most infuriating perk combos in this game rn. Idk how it's made it this long without changes. "I ran in your face and got an autoheal, so we're both invincible for 10 seconds". How is this fair? If you try to wait that 10, either they make it somewhere safe for free, or you only wait 9.99 seconds. This combo can suck a bag of clown fingers
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Undeniably BU is disgusting with FTP.
Buckle Up needed buff but the change was very unhealthy.
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it's undeniably atrocious and op with ftp and hopefully gets the hammer soon, but unlike many people, i honestly think it by itself is fine. though, it's basically an infusion of wglf and mft so it completely powercrept both perks, that's the only issue with it. either those perks or bu needs attention to solve this issue, independently from the disgusting combo.
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Yeah I worded it poorly. Buckle up alone is fine, niche but strong. But with FtP it's just stupid. I think perks need to be dynamic. Like not being triggered by other perks, being more/less effective depending on the character you play, less effective if in a sfw, etc. Just a rough draft of an idea.
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If they made it stop working with FTP then I think it would be perfectly fine. I for one would like it to keep it's current effects, just not work with FTP...
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Id be fine with this interaction not happening if the tunneling meta went to the toilet. Until then, this needs to stay.
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The problem is this combo has no counterplay. You literally cannot hit either target and 10 seconds is more than enough time to get to safety. It is simply too strong and I would prefer old DS as an anti tunnel method.
In fact even if you are not tunnelling this combo helps you so much, since denying a hook just like that is too powerful.
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This perk combo has nothing to do with combating tunneling and everything to do with combating downs as a whole. You can do this before anyone has ever been hooked.
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And killers can tunnel without much counterplay in SoloQ. Its just not there. So until that is fixed, deal with this. This combo is not worse than tunneling.
This perk combo has bought extra chases and time plenty of times in a tunneling situation. So, no, I disagree with you. It is too strong, I agree fully. But removing it before this tunneling meta vanishes is just cruel and one sided.
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You can use that same argument towards instablind flashlights and OG instaheal needles too. While they CAN be used to help survivors being tunneled, they equally help every other survivor too.
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I also don't like the combo Save the best and rapid brutality, but you don't complain about that, right?
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Buckle Up is neither ‘niche’ nor strong by itself. It just sucks. And it has for years. Try to remember that perks should have value—for survivors and killers. Survivor perks don’t exist for novelty.
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Current BU really shouldn't be compared to its original version since they completely changed the effect. The original was pretty useless though, I agree with that much.
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Neither of your killer sided complaints even compare. These are items. We're talking about perks.
But, sure. I'll hop in your lane of thinking.
Even if I agreed with FL and the heals items, which I don't, its still items. We're not expending perk slots on items. So I just can't compare them on equal footing in regards to weight. But, if I did agree, I still think spending two perk slots on this combo is lesser than tunneling, which -was- the comparison. If me trying to start a FL/Needles boycott would stop the complaining about Bu/FTP, I'd happily do so.
Anyway, second point is this is a 1v4. You're choosing to play the 1. That is literally a pro for playing on the 4, is they can all do stuff. I don't think that meant what you think it meant. But even so, I still disagree. FLs especially can't be used equally on all survivors. Player skill comes into play there, and we all know that varies from new to [insert best player in your opinion here]. Solo'Q especially... so many botched saves that made me smile more than care I was dead now. :)
Final point.
He's correct. Do we agree?
This perk that sucks, is dead by itself. It literally needs a second perk slot to gain the power of Greyskull. This is pretty costly, don't you think? Of course it is. But lets face it, the combo is a bit too strong if everyone on the team has it. A small scenario chance, much smaller, I'd wager, than the current game's killer tunneling?
We can agree BHVR takes forever fixing things. So it's here for a few years, I bet. Likely needed at that top 1% that deal with the top 1% killers lol
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The fact that we're talking about perks that can be used over and over, rather than items makes it STRONGER. The needle can be used 1 time, then you gotta find another needle in your BW. The perks are only limited to how many times you heal up.
If you want to compare perk to perk though...
Permanantly saboing every hook on the map could ALSO protect a survivor against being tunneled. It also equally applies to everyone else.
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BHVR already said recently that the For The People + Buckle Up problem is already on their radar and will be monitoring the situation which is usually code for them working on a nerf because that's typically what they say any time they're about to nerf something.
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My favorite part of this exchange is that you've now given the third example of a perk or ability in the game that's been removed or severely nerfed, but comparing it to a current, base kit ability.
Perma sabo hasn't been a thing since October 2018. Insta blind was removed in 2017. Instant heal styptic was removed in October 2019.
So not only have your examples long since been deleted from the game, several years ago in fact, you seem to be implying heavily that tunneling should've been dealt with about 4-6 years ago as well.
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I'm purposefully comparing this combo to previous things that were so broken they either were nerfed or caused game wide changes. This wasn't an accident. The argument presented FOR the inclusion of the combo is that it can be used to combat tunneling... but just like every other example, it's equally countering going after ANY survivor at any time.
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I fail to see how it working for every survivor is a counter? Yeah it's pretty brutal, but its not tunneling levels of "You will definitely win this game." If they do. Unlike playing as killer, you DO have to rely on your teammates. And the average team isn't comp SWF, so please don't go there.
Your examples still don't compare to it countering tunneling very well. And without it, tunneling becomes even more oppressive. Your argument really is 'But they can use it even if Im not tunneling.'
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I truthfully don’t have much issue with it.
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The perk is literally old school BT
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Your argument is "as long as it's physically possible for a killer to tunnel me, I should have busted things". The devs HAVE included anti-tunnel things, even basekit. Anytime this comes up, those complaining have no idea where the moving goalline should stop. Do the devs have to remove your hitbox entirely for you to say "tunneling is solved"? Should they make the basekit BT last forever with unlimited hits? Anything less than that makes it possible for someone to tunnel.
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unless survivors are unable to use ftp on people not unhooked within the last 1 minute, this combo has nothing to do with tunnelling. hey let's bring back og ds where people can use it on their very first down. b-but it helps with tunnelling! let's bring locker saves while we are at it as well, people can use it to combat tunnelling, right? mft as well, a tunnel target should run faster.
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Thing is, other than simply not allowing the same person to be hooked twice in a row, there isn't really any way to stop a killer who chooses to tunnel from doing so.
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I admit I'm curious about what exactly happens in those games because I am not seeing this combination being used to fight against tunneling.
In fact, I've only seen it in action against killers who weren't tunneling. It was even used against me, on a survivor who had yet to be hooked.
Tunneling is a problem recently and it has to be fixed. But the way I see it, DS is the solution.
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Again, the fact that you're having to go back a minimum of 4 years to use examples isn't helping your case.
It's extra funny to me, because 'don't permanently sabotage hooks' is literally the killer rulebook from when the game came out. In exchange for not using the broken thing, survivors expected to not be tunneled out of the game. One of those things got nerfed and deleted, the other is in essentially every single game today.
Which also means that when (not if, because it's already on the road map) bu+ftp is nerfed, people will just complain about Windows, distortion, or alert or some crap until that also gets nerfed. And tunneling will be even stronger yet again.
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I compared it to the early broken stuff BECAUSE they got changed, just like FTP+BU SHOULD be. This was deliberate. The tunneling thing on the other hand HAS been addressed. The only problem is because it's still physically possible...people aren't satisfied. What do you expect to happen before saying "This is enough of a fix to tunneling"? We can't go to people's houses and steal their controller if they go after the "wrong" survivors.
What "fix" do you want? Godmode until a survivor touches a gen?
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FTP+Buckle up counters tunneling. in particular, it is super strong in end game when killer hook camp because you can unhook someone, let BT person bodyblock. if they go down and your healthy near them, you can FTP+Buckle up and extend BT. It reminds of Old pre-nerfed decisive strike where you pick someone up, they DS you and run through exit gate. if you don't pick them up they crawl out of the exit gate.
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There's a lot here to unpack, but I want to ask those advocating for it to be removed: If only one person on the team ran the combo, would that still be too much? Or is this an issue with multiple survivors running it?
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We are all aware of what got changed in the past.
Tunneling has -not- been addressed. DS currently sucks, and gets you no real distance, so 9 times outta 10 the tunnel gets through. DS adds like 5 seconds to the chase.
The bonly problem is it is still physically possible. Ofc thats a problem, because as long as its possible, it will be the most efficient and biggest issue with the game. Please stop trying to downplay the harshness that tunneling brings. If you're an advocate of tunneling, I apologize and will refrain from discussing tunneling specifically.
What fix do I want? Boy, thats the question isn't it? My thoughts are... I dont think BHVR can fix this. Tunneling is intrinsically part of the game. So tbh, not sure. But as long as it's here, survivors need tools to fight it. Tools that are equally despised and OP.
Tunneling = BU+FTP currently. MFT use to be a tool, but no longer. Its still decent for anti-tunnel, but not really enough anymore.
If you could solve this problem,. what would be your suggestion? Fixing DS to be as it was? Some would say that would be enough. I was never a fan.
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Nothing short of godmode will make it impossible to tunnel, which was my point. The idea that as long as the killer has free agency to down his opponents, you should get any amount of OP stuff to do everything better and claim it as "countering tunneling" is asinine.
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Im not attacking free agency to down opponents. Im attacking free agency to tunnel. Lets just agree to disagree.
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i wanted to partake in the discussion but you already are saying anything and everything needed to be said, so i'm showing my support and appreciation o7
also i couldn't handle that argument without coming out as (actually, being legit) condescending so extra props to you. cheating is also fine because of tunneling yeah.
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What could they POSSIBLY DO that would please you and you would claim tunneling is fixed. There is 0 answer to that, meaning you will keep claiming everything is fair because tunneling exists.
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I honestly WISH they do something crazy. Turn off the survivor hitbox until they do conspicuous action. You'd have survivors complain they can't take hits for their unhooker. They'd call it a DS nerf.
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Nah. As long as tunneling exists to the degree it is now, I wont be happy. It doesnt justify having other broken mechanics. But priorities need to be lined up, and tunneling is more an issue than this stupid combo. So if this combo was gutted before tunneling was even attempted to be messed with, yeah, I'd be a lil miffed.
This combo is not justified because tunneling exists. Going on record since you like putting words into mouths.
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Here's your words saying it needs to stay. Not putting words in your mouth.
BTW, tag someone when you're talking to them or the only one getting alerted is OP.
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will be off topic but my go to tunnelling solution would be something just as crazy, 20 seconds of complete invisibility and silence with no collision. oh and that definitely has a potential to be called a survivor/basekit bt nerf, i know dbd community well enough.
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That still leaves room for the survivor to get hit by a randomly thrown hatchet. Sounds like your condoning tunneling. We need basekit "walk out the door as soon as you spawn in" to counter it.
Sarcasm of course, for anyone who can't tell
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Noted. Will tag moving forward. Ty :)
And you are correct. "But priorities need to be lined up, and tunneling is more an issue than this stupid combo. So if this combo was gutted before tunneling was even attempted to be messed with, yeah, I'd be a lil miffed."
This is what I meant. Hope that helps, as I find it difficult to convey thoughts correctly sometimes. Also, I hope Im not coming off as rude. Apologies if so, just a lil into this lol.
If both tunneling and this combo was addressed in the same patch, boy what a glorious day it would be, mm?
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This post got a lot more attention than I figured it would, and I'm checking the forum for the first time since I posted rn.
I think Buckle Up now is a niche, but good solo perk. It's not always gonna be good, but in the cases where it can be useful, it is VERY useful. That's to say my issue is that you can force its usefulness with FtP.
It has nothing to do with tunneling, and at this point, my issues with tunneling have gone down. That's to say I never play without OtR.
There is lots of anti-tunnel play, especially if the one being tunneled is a high level player. This combo has no counterplay.
I ran Stbfl and Rapid Brutality when it came out, and it was nice, but it doesn't seem as strong as you'd think, and I actually haven't seen it used against me yet.
Tunneling is still an issue yeah, but it's possible to deal with.
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Can we get a list of anti-tunneling perks/methods, for those of us who struggle with it? BU+FTP does pretty good and I'd wager its used more for tunneling than just because.
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That's just it though. I feel like it's coming off very disingenuous when people claim NOTHING has been done to counter tunneling. It USE to be the killer could down you 0.1 second after you touched the ground. Doesn't exactly leave room for counterplay. The best looper in the world isn't outplaying that.
Ignoring anti-tunneling perks for a sec, basekit BT is a HUGE improvement... but ppl like to ignore that and claim the devs have done nothing. That gives enough time to get to a loop, so you have a chance to play. Let's at least acknowledge that much.
This is why I'm truly stumped here on what could POSSIBLY be offered basekit by the devs. As long as the survivor and killer is still on the same map and the killer can hit them... it's still possible to tunnel. You could have the endurance last for an hour and require 10 hits to burn through it and ppl will STILL point out that tunneling is possible.
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Oh come now. 10 hit endrance, while absurd, would definitely take care of tunneling. Killer would just NOT tunnel. Finding a spot where killers decide NOT to tunnel would be the ideal avenue imo. I understand your example wasn't literal, but maybe 2 hits would be enough. 2 hits for 30 seconds, then it goes away. Thats not a bad example or starting point lol
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-Off the Record, best method imo
-Stealth, the only truly effective way to stop a tunnel is to lose the killer. Getting a bodyblock off, removing line of sight on the tunnelee, and letting them hide. Not always an option, but if it is, it's the most effective. Stealth is the best way out if possible. Don't stick around hooks, run to areas the killer wouldn't want to check, finished gen areas, safe map corners, etc.
-Decisive, despite everyone's claims, yes its still a good antitunnel perk. My only complaint is the duration, and I mean how long it's usable. 60 seconds, compared to OtR with 80. If you can't chase very well, Ds + OtR can punish a tunnel, otherwise just use OtR.
-Bodyblocks. Usually won't make a big difference, but sometimes it tips the scale. Shouldn't really be used unless a way out for the tunnelee is clear, whether an escape or stealth.
-Stalling. This is the accept death route, just about. If nothing else works, just play well. Hopefully you can last long enough for the others to get the objectives done and cost the killer the game for 1 kill. Or if you're lucky, or with a good team, you could possibly survive a full game chase. Extremely doubtful, but I know I've done it before.
If someone else is getting tunneled, there is kinda 2 options to help them. Focus on objectives, or keep them alive a little longer. When I get tunneled, my main worry is the others actually doing the gens and using the time well. You can try to bodyblock, but it's usually a small obstacle, unless you can pull off a stealth play, which usually requires multiple people stalling the killer at once. Also don't heal under hook if this is a concern, just get away and lay low.
If it's the endgame and you've gotten unhooked and a tunnel is starting, sorry to say, 99% of the time, that's a wrap. No DS or OtR, lower resources. Just hope you waste enough time for everyone else to get out.
Remember that despite yourself, it's a team game, even if you die, you can still win by getting the others out.
These are all the ways I deal with tunneling, just stalling with a good chase is probably the best anti-tunnel play. I know how this sounds, and I don't mean it like that, get better with chasing.
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10 hits was an exaggeration, but you currently have people who will rage when the killer chases them off a gen claiming it's tunneling, as if the killer should LET them do the gen. You had people complain about the conspicuous action nerf on DS, which just made it so you weren't untouchable for 2 minutes every match. By all means go run off and recover, but you don't get to solo a gen with 0 risk of being on the hook again.
So yes... you could literally give a person godmode and turn off their hitbox until they do a conspicuous action... and you will still find people complaining about tunneling.
Ironically you'd probably get MORE complaints from that from people noticing teammates staying away from gens, as well as people who notice they can't bodyblock...
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-Interesting list. I havent tried OTR but if its that strong, I'll see what its about.
-Disagree on DS, its just not good unless you get off right at a pallet. Its three steps and down again.
-Bodyblocks aren't prevalent enough in Solo'Q to be efficient.
-Stalling is always the only option. If a killer wants tpo tunnel, unless you're a god tier looper, you've no options.
I do agree if Im the only one who dies, its a win and Im quite happy! Literally goes with my name though. I cant imagine everyone else need feel the same. Especially new players who try the game and then get tunneled 2-3 times in a row. Why would they continue?
Let them rage. If you're on a gen, you're fair game. If you got unhooked and made it to a gen, then you're fair game anyway. Remember that survivors will yell tunneling any chance they can get usually. Most of it is just passing the blame. the Conspicuous action was a wonderful addition imo. No survivor should have godmode and freedom to do objectives without worry.
I dont believe we are talking about that. We understand what tunneling is and its issues. BU+FTP has issues we agree with as well.
They both need reworked/helped, but we've no solutions to either. You want the combo gutted, and I want tunneling to stop being so regular. Are these goals obtainable? Probably not :(
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Sidenote... this is a good example I stumbled across.
First use was about 1:20. 2 survivors cranking out a gen, 1 being injured against a Wraith. This would typically be a risky play, but... it's not anymore because of the combo. It's just an anti-down at this point. The irony that the killer is called a tunneler after the survivors keep erasing downs on OTHER survivors just makes it ironic to the topic.
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No idea why a discussion about Buckle up + FTP gets sidetracked into tunneling.
This combo is dead hard in another form. Instead of the chased Survivor pressing E, someone else does it for them.
While it means that two people are off gens (Chased Survivor and FTP Survivor), it also extends the time taken to get that first hook which also affects the time taken to get that second hook and so on.
Either the amount of uses FTP gets has to be limited (One use after unhooking someone or being unhooked) or the Broken Status effect duration has to be increased.
Alternatively the endurance effect duration from Buckle up could be reduced but I guess people would cry foul if it went through
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Honestly if they added a minimum healing time to buckle up... it would be fixed. 2 seconds of healing charges the perk or something.
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As a general thought, the combo requires two perks, a downed survivor and a healthy survivor, and then the situation to happen.
Tunneling requires absolutely nothing.
I know this is moot as everyone should know this. But its still just crazy to me this is a big complaint. To answer your question, I'd make the Endurance from BU 2-4-6 seconds.
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