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Would 5sec Decisive Strike really help with tunneling?
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At worst if the perk fires you get 11s worth of killer time. Pickup 2s, stun 3s, hit and cooldown 3s, pickup 2s, hook 1s because you are basically under it. If 11s worth of time in a 4v1 game in a single perk slot for all standing still has no impact then idk what to tell you. On top of the fact you could use the 10s speed boost and endurance to get into a good spot that could stretch that out a lot longer against most killers if you were skilled enough and or use dh to get another health state after you get the free chase reset which is less situational as a perk but extremely synergistic.
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But why should you be warned they have DS?
You aren't warned, for example, that the killer has Pain Res until the moment it triggers. Why should DS be any different?
How to do you counter Pain Res? You assume the killer has it. Same goes for DS, you assume the survivors have it.
So you either don't tunnel, or you slug them. But slugging is better than to go back to the hook immediately because of Unbreakable. Or someone else can come pick you up.
There is no reason for DS not to return to the meta.
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This may be abit off topic but: How often does everyone see survivors actually run anti-tunnel perks? Maybe thats a reason no one is dissuaded from tunneling?
We keep seeing people think this 5 second stun is the end all solution. It defiantly would help but no where near as much as people are saying.
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Look if you want to make a perk meta thats great but its not good game design to just make a meta perk so I won't ever agree with it. If you think a change is needed because something is so dire that you think meta perks that everyone / enough people should run to shift the entire way the game is played just make a basekit change that does the same thing instead.
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This made me laugh more than it should have. Your name and pfp just... chef's kiss.
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Ah well, unfortunately I am not a dev. I don't have the power to do anything.
I think a basekit change would be a bit too strong, but DS meta again solves the problem we are currently seeing.
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I am not a fan of bandaid ballance either, but what else are they supposed to do at this point? Come up with a better idea how to reduce tunneling outside of DS buff please.
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Making surivior groans of pain quieter would make it harder for tunneling killers to find someone hiding and healing. + No scratchmarks for 10s after the unhook.
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If you really want to make killers think twice about tunneling then make DS work multiple times like OTR does. Completely avoidable and only gets any value if the killer tunnels.
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Can you name those 5 tools?
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The real reason killers don't respect DS anymore is because nobody takes it because they think it is bad. Real top tier survivors know that DS is still one of the best perks in the game.
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Yes, I loved how someone said it should disable killer powers too. Blight, Nurse, Huntress shouldn't be able to use their power right after a stun.
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Not really.
There is nothing that rewards more than getting someone out. You can be at one Gen remaining, having wasted the whole match tunneling one player and still be in a good spot. Sad but true. Because as soon as it's a 3v1, the survivors have to NOT go down. Otherwise it's gonna be a spiral of recovery that is very hard to get out of.
Even eating a 7 second ds will not help to fix this. An alternative (maybe give slowdown for hooking each survivor once / twice before sacrificing them) AND punishing tunneling via something (maybe not a licensed perk people have to pay for) would help way more if you ask me.
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"Anti-tunnel is fine, so long as it doesn't counter tunnelling!"
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That wasn't their point. Half of the strength of DS was having to assume everyone is running it, which in turn makes it not actually necessary to run in order to still get value. They were saying if there was some type of indication it was in play, that would remove that bonus, while still allowing it to have a longer stun and do its job to counter tunneling.
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I support ds returning to 5 seconds as long as it is deactivated in End Game, when doing actions and covering hits from teammates since if you cover a teammate you are not being tunneled
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And having an indicator makes it a mandatory perk to run.
The entire point of the perk should be to make killers pause and actually reconsider whether they are tunneling the player or not. I'm really not a fan of the recent trend where somehow killers seem to expect to win without ever thinking anything more complex than 'chase the first guy I've hooked until they're dead'.
This entire 'having an indicator' has never really been a thing in the game. The only perk that does this is no mither, which is hilariously bad.
Where's the indicator for pain res being in play? I'm tired of letting go of gens every game to play around pr/dms for the past two years. Or the indicator for Eruption, which also has/had no warning that it was in play? The answer is there isn't one (and for the record, shouldn't be one), because part of playing the game is the unknown of what the other side is bringing to the table.
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The only thing I really care about in terms of DS is keeping it from being a SWF weapon again.
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Is that why so many hex perks give indications when they are in play? how about exposed? If there was no indicators they would similarly have invisible power, but they have indicators for good reason. Game changing effects should have at least some type of decision other than "just assume its always in play bro."
Also your PR/DMS comparison is pretty weak, considering it takes a fraction of a second to let go of a gen when you see the person being hooked, letting you literally avoid it on reaction. If you get hit by it, you'll see it is in play and be able to use that in your decision making for the rest of the game as well. Getting hit by 1 DS doesn't give any weight to whether the other 3 players have it.
Not much comment on eruption since I haven't seen it once since its nerf.
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It IS bad. That DS is used in Comps is probably most likely due to the restrictions in Comp.
But yeah, must be a coincidence that DS does next to nothing in Public Games.
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DS should be buffed to 7 seconds
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It'd also be a handy-dandy indicator for the killer to not trigger DS and instead leave 'em slugged, which means the stun duration becomes irrelevant.
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Which is why people used to always bring UB with it, and could continue to do so.
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DS was also a highly weaponized perk, where if the killer wasn't tunneling, then the survivor would try to force the killer into eating the DS. Yes, it happened a lot, and the "conspicuous actions" change didn't stop people from weaponizing the perk.
If the DS stun duration gets buffed, then BHVR needs to somehow nerf the perk to stop people from weaponizing it. If a survivor is trying to bodyblock because they have DS, that should deactivate the perk. Stepping into a locker should also deactivate the perk. Basically anything survivors did to weaponize the perk needs to go away.
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It can't be weaponised because the killer just has to M1 once and not pick up to make the survivors lose more time than the killer does.
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heres my problem. DS WOULD reduce tunneling but I don’t want to rely on a bandaid perk just to have an enjoyable experience I just want to play to have fun.
I’d rather they make a base kit change so I don’t actually have to waste my perk slot
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"haha this is what I took from what you said now you look bad"
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Basekit bt, basekit speed boost, exhaustion reset on being hooked, dh, off the record, ds
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If someone is hooked after being unhooked within 60s without being fully healed or doing a conspicuous action they get a basekit 3s stun ds until they do a conspicuous action upon being unhooked or fully healed. Disabled in endgame
or just buff ds to 4 seconds because m1 killers are people too and 5s ds was meant for enduring
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But they can no longer force the killer to grab them off a gen.
A survivor jumping inside a locker doesn't help their team, and if the body-blocking is an issue you can slug them.
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It's still weaponizing the perk. Survivors are purposely weaponizing the perk, and that needs to be fixed. The actual anti-tunnel part can stay. And super honestly, if people really truly want to use DS as an anti-tunnel perk, then they shouldn't care if the weaponizing part gets nerfed.
The fact that survivors were purposely bobdyblocking, purposely baiting the killer, and purposely trying to get the killer to eat a DS, means the survivors were weaponizing the perk. And why would you care if the weaponizing part gets nerfed? You obviously would never try to use DS offensively, right? Because if you don't, then you shouldn't care if the weaponizing part gets nerfed, because it wouldn't affect you at all, right?
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Because you're not going to isolate the 'weaponising' part. How're you going to distinguish between 'bodyblock' and 'another survivor happened to be nearby'?
Pre-6.1 DS was fine, outside of the EGC usage. This talk of it being 'weaponised' only arose once people started asking for 5 sec DS back.
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Dead on. Locker suggestion is good.
Protection hits should disable it as well, but unfortunately that still doesn't stop taking a hit for full health survivors... you can't make it when hit within range of any other survivors as hitting you while you're trying to heal is also tunneling.
Still haven't thought of a means of preventing weaponisation of this kind. DS isn't really worth running in its current form, especially vs Nurse or Blight... but it's s a tough perk to buff for this reason alone...
Perhaps something like when the killer has been in chase of another survivor for 10s, if tou are hit within 16m of that survivor, Decisive Strike deactivates?
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A hollow hill, a Pyrrhic victory.
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In a different thread i suggested exactly that, and i am completly fine with the 4 second DS buff if we add a short power disable on top of that, which would only really effect top tier killer that can catch up super quick a lot (Spirit, Blight and Nurse in particular).
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No. I mean yes but no lol. It could help but it won't fix it. It requires something big to stop tunneling. I'm not creative so I got noffin, but lots of other people here have great ideas :D
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It's attempting to weaponise the perk, which is a slightly different thing.
With the Conspicuous Actions nerf, any survivor who tries to weaponise DS is throwing. Speaking from the killer perspective, the statement "If DS gets a 5 second stun again, survivors will try to weaponise it" doesn't scare me off, since you're just telling me that my games are going to be easier due to more survivors throwing the match to try (and fail) to get value from weaponised DS.
The only change I'd personally make is making any save a Conspicuous Action, since you're not being tunnelled if someone else has been downed and picked up. Other than that, the current implementation is perfectly suited to combat weaponising the perk, so the stun duration can be safely buffed without worry about it becoming a problem.
To touch on the idea that "if you want to use it as an anti-tunnel perk you shouldn't care if it gets nerfed for weaponising", I think that's a fair statement that simply misses something: False positives. Take bodyblocking- there's no way of guaranteeing you won't end up having your DS deactivated just because you're hit close to your teammate post-unhook, which is pretty common when you're being tunnelled. Considering that, and the fact that DS is incredibly hard to weaponise without throwing (basically impossible if the killer doesn't fall for the bait), I think it's fair to object to the idea that weaponising the perk needs to be "fixed".
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The thing is, Basekit BT, DH und OTR are basically negated by hitting the Survivor once. DS is not useful in its current state, you get around 7m of distance (1,7 seconds of mobility while the Killer is stunned). This is not much, unless you are really, really close to a Pallet.
Exhaustion Reset and Basekit Speedboost are really a stretch.
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There were many people that were still weaponizing the perk after the conspicious action nerf, so there were a bunch of people that still thought it was a good idea.
And, we all need to remember that buckle up + FTP is now in the game, which means there will be SWFs that absolutely would weaponize DS if it was brought back to 5 seconds, just so they can combo it in as an actual health state. SWFs with voice comms was always where weaponized DS was the most obnoxious.
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There were many people who tried to weaponise the perk after the conspicuous actions nerf. The only ones who ever succeeded did so because the killer took the bait, it's always avoidable from the killer side and it's actually a benefit to the killer side, since it's someone messing around trying and failing to bait you into a chase.
Buckle Up + For The People is its own problem. That needs to be fixed regardless of how long DS stuns you for.
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Aggressive body blocking isn't always avoidable. Sometimes the survivor is blocking a narrow path. And "just hit the DS survivor, and leave them slugged on the ground" is unacceptable, because that still counts as being weaponized.
If you honestly think weaponizing the perk is a bad idea, then you should be fine if that part gets nerfed some more, because it obviously wouldn't affect you, right?
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It certainly wouldn't hurt.
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Unfortunately @Coffeecrashing is correct, the main reason Decisive Strike isn't used much now is because the 2 seconds of escape it actually buys you is ineffective against a good Nurse or Blight. If the stun is jacked up however we still hit the problem of it being weaponised.
The protection hit solution would be nice, but we hit the problem you describe. I was working on this to post in another thread, but I realised you can still body block for a full HP survivor with Decisive Strike, so that would be an issue...and I can't think of a way of preventing it. The one saving grace is at least it would be pretty obvious, however of course SWFs would still use it... and we do have the issue that Killers can get faked out by someone pretending to have DS. In any case this is what I have thus far.
Decisive Strike
Using whatever is at hand, you stab your aggressor in an ultimate attempt to escape.
If the exit gates are not yet powered, after being unhooked or unhooking yourself, Decisive Strike activates after 5 seconds. For the next 40/50/60 seconds:
- When being grabbed or picked up by the Killer, succeed a Skill Check to automatically escape their grasp, stunning them for 3.5 seconds.
- The killers power is disabled for 7 seconds.
- Successfuly stunning the Killer will deactivate Decisive Strike and result in you becoming the Obsession.
While Decisive Strike is active, it is deactivated if:
- The survivor performs any Conspicuous Actions.
- The survivor takes a Protection Hit.
- The Exit Gates are powered.
After successfully stunning the Killer with Decisive Strike, it is disabled for the rest of the trial.
The 5 seconds timer is to ensure protection hits off hook can't disable it... I was really trying to think about if you could beat the 5s timer. Even if you get hit immediately off hook with STBFL, rushed and downed again with Nurse, Blight, Spirit or Wesker, could they pick you up to beat the 5s timer? Wesker is possible, because he can immediately hit you off hook then Virulent Bound to instant grab you... but I don't think anyone else can without a grab...
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Well, hang on- why is slugging them unacceptable? It's both denying them value + giving you value, and it's a situation that we could be in right now without DS at all. OTR would actually help the survivor trying to do that by blocking them going down, but DS wouldn't do anything - couldn't be considered weaponised, to be clear - until the killer picks them up, which isn't guaranteed to happen.
I don't see how that's an unacceptable outcome. It's a situation you could be in right now, and it isn't giving the survivor team very much value at all. It's a win/win for the killer and the survivors gain, what, a few seconds of distance on one of the two people being occupied by the killer?
As to your second point, I already addressed that. People are concerned about false positives on top of the fact that weaponising DS is extremely hard if not impossible with its current design, so calls to nerf its capacity for weaponising (which is already very negligible) could easily end up weakening the perk for its intended purpose.
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It would certainly help. Right now the 3 seconds is a joke. Even against basic M1 killers.
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If the unhooker is injured, or gets hit while doing the unhook, then the killer can hit the unhooked survivor to trigger a 'Protection Hit' event and deactivate DS.
You can't really make bodyblocking deactivate DS without letting the killer just bypass it entirely as the unhook happens.
I'd be fine with entering a locker deactivating DS, as if you have DS up you don't really need to hide inside lockers. That said a good killer can avoid most attempts at weaponising DS.
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There were many people that were still weaponizing the perk after the conspicious action nerf, so there were a bunch of people that still thought it was a good idea.
IF the killer takes the bait, it does work out for the survivors. But any competent killer will only fall for it once and never again. And from that point onwards, trying to 'weaponise' DS is just throwing. So some people will try to take that gamble, and a lot of them will get themselves and the other survivors killed over it.
We've had 5 second DS for over a year, in which it was not even remotely a problem. For some reason, people are now needling a perk that's been proven to be healthy for gameplay to cramp it and restrain it as much as possible. Introducing new fail states to try and save the one killer that just slams that spacebar the moment they get a down without any kind of thought.
Survivors perks are allowed to do a thing. They don't all have to be No Mithers and Autodidacts.
I don't even agree with the locker disable. Why would it disable on entering the locker? The only way that that is a problem is if the killer is tunnelling, so why would it disable under that circumstance?
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It shouldn't deactivate at the end game.
If you get saved and the killer decides to tunnel you right then and there, what do you do? No, the perk must still be active when the gates are powered.
This is like making STBFL disable at the end game, imo.
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The reason it disables at end game is the killer cannot possibly stop you from escaping once the gates are open.
If he picks you up, you stun them and run out of gate, if they don't pick you up, you crawl out anyway.
It puts the killer in a lose/lose situation. Even though they successfully caught you after you were unhooked and running to the exit, they can't possibly win, not because you outplayed them, but because you equipped this perk.
It's things like this that make Decisive Strike a pain... It's a cool perk idea, I want it to be good, but you get all these edge cases where it becomes a problem...
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The end game isn't meant for pity kills nor escapes. Like I said, no one is entitled to anything just because all the gens got done.
Lets say the gates were open, the killer gets hit by DS, but the gates are blocked because the killer happened to have Blood Warden. Those are both fair scenarios, where players used powerful perks they had at their disposal to try and get an advantage.
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