Would 5sec Decisive Strike really help with tunneling?
I'll preface this by saying I fully support buffing DS back to a 5sec stun.
Following on from a mini-discussion in my other recent thread, I wonder if buffing DS back to 5 seconds would actually reduce tunneling that much.
I don't think anyone is saying it would 'fix' tunneling, many killers would simply eat the DS as they do now and continue the tunnel. The question though is would it even reduce it a significant amount? Even back before the nerf tunneling was still commonplace and I feel like most killers have gotten even more used to it since then that an extra 2 seconds of stun wouldn't really put many off.
I think a 5 second DS would still help, but I think many are overestimating how much of an impact it would have. I think tunneling needs basekit solutions if anything is gonna change.
Comments
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I dont think so.
I mean, it should 100% go back to 5 seconds. Because back then Killers actually respected DS and decided to not tunnel or at least not to pick up the Survivor (which allowed them to either use Unbreakable or be picked up by another Survivor).
But, nowadays the gameplay is different. Killers are well-aware that tunneling one Survivor out is the best way to win the game, because a 3v1 with more than 1 Gen left is usually not winnable for the Survivors.
So I would guess that if DS would go back to 5 seconds, Killers would still tunnel and just eat the longer stun, because the benefit of tunneling is still big. And it is still better for them to eat a 5 second stun and tunnel after both hooks compared to going for a fresh chase after an Unhook.
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It'd help. but it wouldn't fix it alone.
What it would achieve is pushing some killers to avoid tunnelling because they want to avoid the stun, and also give survivors a little more distance if any killer does choose to tunnel. It may not actually swing the game, but it'd be a good start.
What needs to happen, in my opinion, is that DS needs to go back to five seconds and more anti-tunnel perks need to exist, alongside a few tweaks to the basekit anti-tunnel measure. For instance, I'd love if the protection you get after unhook was changed to not be Endurance and not cancel out any Endurance effects after it's triggered, so you can block a hit with both the basekit protection and OTR or BT.
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Killers were respecting DS , so yeah it will help to reduce tunnelling.
Some killers did not care about DS and just picked you up but then you would make good distance and buy good time for your team. So DS maybe did not stop try-hard tunnellers but punished them pretty well.
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The issue with that I think is that basekit BT is already used offensively to block the killer attacking the unhooker, being able to add OTR on top of -that- would be abused heavily.
It's a shame because as an anti-tunnel measure I think it's great. A killer actually tunneling the unhooked survivor getting hit with essentially 2 endurances is fair. But a killer trying to NOT tunnel getting blocked twice by the person who just got unhooked, or getting blocked once but then not being able to punish the bodyblocker like they can now, seems harsh.
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best case scenario yes
worst case no
there is nothing to loose with ds being back to 5 seconds
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That's a concern, but I don't know- even in the most egregious cases I've faced, I feel like it wouldn't be that big of a deal. Even assuming the best case scenario, like someone trying to bodyblock necessary doorways in Lery's or something, that's still occupying two survivors at once while the freshly unhooked one wastes a crazy amount of time. Besides, OTR already allows you to effectively do that if someone just waits out the initial ten seconds or wasn't even trying to tunnel in the first place, so it's not a huge change from where we are now.
I do agree it's a concern, but I don't think it's an insurmountable one.
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It would at least somewhat punish tunneling and that's better than nothing
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I said it before. Even a 10 seconds DS wouldn't stop me, if I wanted you dead. But it would disincentivise tunneling a bit and push killers towards a more pleasent play style. If 4 survivors have DS, that means I can ignore 4 perks, if I don't tunnel.
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A 10 second DS would stop you eventually. You’d get tired of losing matches.
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Or just have up to 8 bodyblocks as it was before :)
Make other strategies rewarding, anti-tunnel perks working only in tunnel situations and buff them. Punishing tunnel without giving anything in return is road to nowhere, as it's only available way to win against good survivors for now.
I have already revealed my opinion on this topic here.
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I'd kill that person none the less.
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I preferred the suggestion of a 3.5s stun (to account for 1s to drop), and preventing the killer from using their power for 7s.
Just because Decisive Strike against Blight, Wesker and Nurse is not equal to Decisive Strike vs.Trapper, Pig and Myers.
Edit: However no, DS can't stop tunneling, what DS does is give the tunneled player a chance to fight back, and a bit more time to try and do something in the game rather than just getting crushed out of the game.
Post edited by UndeddJester on3 -
No.
It would maybe reduce it a bit in certain scenarios, but make it even worse in others.
The problem of tunneling has to be dealt with in a larger update than adding 2 seconds to a licensed perk.
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The heavier the killer gets punished, the more they do it.
There is still no alternative to killing a survivor early. It's the strongest slowdown in the game. Until that doesn't change, tunneling remains the go - to for many players.
There needs to be a worthwhile alternative in combination with a punishment. And I don't think adding seconds to a licensed perk is the right idea here.
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I would only use ds if it does not deactivate after repairing a gen/ healing.
Before somebody says then you are not getting tunneled, he could still be undetectable or just slowly walking back. As good teammate I want to do the objective, but no for the perk to work I have to run stupidly in his face.
One buff that is needed for the perk is that it should deactivate killer powers for 10s.
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Not really because people only brought it for a free escape at endgame.
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Yui with her 5 years stun DS
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It would for sure reduce the tunneling.
A 5 second DS will bring this perk back to the meta table. Killer would have to expect everybody running DS, which would eventually lead to less tunneling. Some might still tunnel and go for the slug instad of the insta pickup, but because of that they would not be able to kill of one person quickly - which will make them loose the game.
About 5sec DS: I think it should be rather 4 second, but adding another 4 second on top of that no beeing able to use the power. So Nurse and Blight, the 2 stronges killer, will get hit the hardest if they tunnel.
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Yes, it would help.
Obviously we cannot expect Decisive Strike to stop every single tunneler out there, but it would put an end to the sheer wave of tunneling we are currently seeing.
Many killers were hesitant to tunnel because of this perk, but even if they aren't it helps you buy more time for your team. If they are effective on gens, you might even survive the trial.
However, DS shouldn't be disabled at the end game. No perk should be disabled at the end game.
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Thing is though, that if tunnelling becomes slower, for example by making anti-tunnel perks effective, it might end up -not- being the most effective playstyle.
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Probably not, although ds was only ever made a 5s stun because of enduring so at most it would probably be set to a 4s stun. Might be respected a bit more than it is now but I never want to go back to where you had to 100% respect it 24/7 even if they didn't have it.
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I never want to go back to where you had to 100% respect it 24/7 even if they didn't have it.
Better that than tunnel, tbh.
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Yeah, that 'I don't want to have to respect it' kinda suggests that it going back to five seconds would really help.
Also, if four seconds is acceptable, that'd therefor be insufficient.
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It wouldn't fix tunneling at all tbh- Also, if I remember correctly, BHVR said in the past that if they were to ever buff the stun time for DS back up then they'd make Enduring reduce the stun time from DS as well which means a DS stun is only gonna be 2.5 seconds which is faster than the 3 second stun time it has now.
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Nope not really tunneling matters in most matches so making tools against it stronger without buffing tools for playing the game in other ways stronger is just a spit in the face of balance really.
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Slugging has more accessible counters than tunnelling, though, including basekit responses since survivors can pick each other up from the dying state.
It might not be the best outcome but it is still strictly better.
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You're not wrong, I just base my judgement of an idea on whether it'd actually be good or not, rather than how many complaints it'd get lol
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DS should get a small buff, but it should 100% still get disabled at the end game. End game DS makes a 4 out way too free against a lot of killers if the Survivors are a smidge coordinated and the person currently on hook has it. The killer literally doesn't have enough time to play around it.
Also... I would like to point out that every single generator related perk is essentially disabled at end game regardless of which side it's on because the gens can't be interacted with at that point. Heck... Freddie even loses his teleport during end game. So, if we're going with no perk gets disabled at end game, a LOT of perks are going to have to... I don't know... get a secondary effect at end game?
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Ah yes the most fun form of balancing buff perks till people use them all the time to reduce the playstyles we don't like instead of just buffing other playstyles and or nerfing the problematic one
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It would help reduce the frequency of tunneling, I am not sure if the reduction would be of any significance. Decisive strike has already enjoyed a 5 sec long stun in the past, and tunneling was still prevalent back then.
Also, I believe that the developers were interested in changing the balancing of the game so to have the player base treat all the available perks as their own niche perks, thereby increasing the diversity of builds that players would encounter in every match. They may not want to buff a perk like decisive strike, a perk which has enjoyed the position of being a part of the meta perks for quite some time, and risk proliferating its usage again.
I keep seeing people treat tunneling as an issue to be fixed in its entirety, instead of a valid strategy, validated by the current win/loss system which is kill and escape based, as scummy as it may seem for many people, some players have no regards for community ordained rules, i.e. the survivor or even the killer rule book for that matter. If a killer wants to focus on a select survivor for the sake of getting a kill, then they will do that, similarly, if a survivor wants to focus exclusively on gens so to escape, then they will do that, the current system rewards such behaviors.
The game needs to start compensating killers more for every new interaction that is had per survivor, and then judge how well a player did in said interaction and reward them accordingly, and stop punishing them so severely for not getting enough kills per match, then the community would have to change its idea of what it means to win in this game for both the killer and the survivor side, and have the reward system in the game actually be in alignment with this new viewpoint. If the reward system is not in alignment with this new idea of what it means to win in this game, then the community is simply deluding itself into a perspective which the current reward system is antagonistic towards.
I remember that some members of the community characterized threads such a these, ones that focused on a change in perk(s) or addon(s), as threads which focused on treating the symptoms of a larger problem within the game.
Unfortunately, I think that it is unlikely that the developers will adopt a reward system which is performance based, as kills and escapes are a core element of this game, and are the determining factor of a win/loss. Some people believe that this system made more sense in dbd’s earlier days, when it was not so competitive, but now that it has become a hyper competitive game, people believe that adopting a performance based reward system would make more sense. For example, reward a player which kept the killer busy for a good while, and was altruistic and even sacrificed so that the rest of the team could perform other tasks like finishing generators, or even doing side objectives as the new system would reward survivors more for their over all performance, and reward less for, and even punish a player for not doing enough activities in a match, and yes, I would count being hooked and sacrificed as activities which should be rewarded.
Thankfully the developers have shown an interest in adding more game modes into the game, so perhaps they can now release a mode which is dedicated to the competitive scene. Assuming that the game brings about such a mode, I would expect the problem then be to have competitive players treat the casual game mode as if it were competitive, and seeing how the members of this community like to treat each other, I would not be surprised if it were to happen fairly quickly. Maybe even risk having the competitive game mode be dead on arrival.
So I believe that a change in a few perks will not bring about a significant and lasting change in the tactics used by players within the game. We have seen this play out when the developers dared touch the previous established meta build, a build which enjoyed such a status for quite a while mind you, the tactics used by player’s remained more or less the same, gen rush for survivors and tunneling for killers. It’s just that, now that there is an increase in the diversity of perks used by the survivors, the killer players are overwhelmed and so they double down on tunneling so that they may be rewarded by the current system by getting kills early, as the survivors will rightfully be focusing on gen rushing because, again, the current system rewards such behavior.
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The end game isn't a place for pity kills nor escapes. It is part of the game. No one is entitled to anything just because all the gens got done.
And no, I'm not talking about gen perks. Those are obviously not going to work. I'm talking about the fact that it doesn't really make sense for DS to deactivate at the end game. It is like, idk, making STBFL disable at the end game. That would be awful.
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Tunneling isn't balance, it is a strategy. But that strategy is frowned upon, that is why there must a perk to fight against it.
You can win without tunneling, that is a fact. Of course, no one will blame you for tunneling a survivor who ran directly towards you, but you don't necessarily have to take someone out as soon as possible.
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Killers are currently overperforming, so win-win, really.
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Id like to see those stats
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Thats why people who get unhooked have basekit bt, off the record, dead hard, ds, exhaustion removed, and 10s of a 10% movement speed boost. Its not meant to be all encompassing as one perk. Its meant to benefit a "strategy" of making more time while being tunneled. Yes strategies too can be balanced and needing to do what you have to when you need to or preemptively doing it to try and win is indeed part of the game.
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4s is the buff because 5s was only ever made for ENDURING reducing stun time implying that 3s is plenty and 4s is already excessive and 5s is more so
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You can look them up on Nightlight. Killers pretty consistently win more than they lose. And judging by the killrates, they win a bit more than survivors do.
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Except the game proves otherwise. 3 seconds is not enough, but 5 seconds got the job done.
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Its selection biased, more often then not only the good or experienced players are the only ones who know about download and use nightlight, skewing stats on their website of course good players win more but does it show the whole picture, no.
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5s got the job done because it left no room for expression or requirement of player skill for it because with 5s you were half way across the map even if you didn't run perfectly. 3s requires people to go down in a good spot to make full use of which many of them who need it aren't good enough to do. 4s is a safe middle ground since it gives the bad players more wiggle room but doesn't give the good players a massive buff.
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DS was meta not for the long stun but because it was hard to play around without wasting a ton of time and forcing no-win situations. 5 seconds still isn't really enough time for survivor to make reasonable distance or break line of sight in a way that inhibits being tunneled. Survivors still likely won't be able to just sit on their DS which is what actually made it meta to begin with. It's a huge ask to have DS lock out powers on top of stunning though. The gameplay implications around that is going to make for typically worse scenarios.
The counter to DS was already slugging and one could argue that if you're going to lock out a killer's power the response is to just keep downing the survivor until they bleed out. You get the same level of pressure if someone is just on the ground as you do on the hook. We were tunneling extremely hard when DS could be held basically indefinitely and weaponized in the past so a timing change on its own won't and hasn't ever changed that. It's still more efficient overall to get a 3v1 early.
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But DS was the primary anti-tunnel tool, and its current state isn't doing anything. The amount of tunneling recently is unreasonable, something has to be done about.
Reverting DS is important because many killers didn't want to eat the stun. That helps a lot.
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You can wriggle all you like, but it's a counter-perk. If the perk requires the killer to faceplant into it, it deserves to be strong.
Highly situational perks should not be given 'balanced' outputs. They should have high pay-offs.
It's more than what the people who whine about killers being weak or having to tunnel to have a chance can offer.
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sounds like someone can't make use out of a 3s stun and free escape
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Its not the primary tool anymore you got 5 of them, if you want more tools equip more perks don't expect 1 perk to hard carry anymore since you also get basekit help and the tools have good synergy
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Sounds like it's a dumb idea to bring a perk that has a very solid chance of never firing, which doesn't even do solid work when it does fire.
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Hopefully it will be, once more.
Are there other ways to avoid tunneling? Yes, there are. But none of them are as effective as DS and it shows. Just look at the sheer amount of tunneling that is happening now.
Was there tunneling when DS was good? Yes, but not on this same level.
DS will end this wave and it has to be done.
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It would help tremendously as it lessens tunneling viability a lot so lot of killers would stop using it and those who continue to tunnel would get somewhat punished.
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Invisible counterplay should be weaker than other forms of counterplay 5s stun on a perk you don't know they have just shouldn't exist. If ds did something like made a sound when you downed them or was as visible as off the record, or dh I would agree. But I would never agree that invisible counterplay should be the strongest option just suggest a basekit change at that point don't make some psychology experiment.
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Except that it could make it meta again, effectively forcing survivors to run DS every game and meaning killers have to assume it's in play at all times. Which is the problem old DS had.
One perk, and a licensed perk at that, shouldn't have that effect. We need a basekit solution to tunneling, not a bandaid perk.
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