P100 Trickster - I HATE the Rework: Updated Feedback
Comments
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But OP does not want purely rapid fire gameplay and neither do I and a few others which seems to be the point you're not trying to understand at all.
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Honestly I'm just gonna give up responding to you, you're not really reading or acknowledging anything I say at all and you did this to OP as well. If you want the killer to remain as is, so be it, but I'm no longer gonna waste my time with someone who won't actually have a debate, so I'm just gonna agree to disagree and move on.
Last and final point I will make to you (pretty sure you won't read it but whatever): Trickster still has rapid fire gameplay even with these proposed changes.
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tap-firing like that would decrease your m/s and increase recoil. in practice, the character is not suppose tap-fire or burst-fire. your only doing that in loops because your throwing m/s is low. Letting go of your throwing mode made you lose throwing-rate bonus so in practice, you never got to rapid-fire with him due to LOS blockers.
In every single clip I've watched of new trickster, I have been able to pinpoint the exact moment 6 blades would lose a health state. I've watched survivors make it to an entirely new tile because of the 8 hit requirement.
It is not fair to compare old main event to new in this way due to the massive difference in frequency, especially since you had to hit 30/44 of your ammo count (almost 69% of your ammo give or take) for one main event rather than getting it in every single chase. The PTB for the rework proved this at its core was a terrible idea, but BHVR doubled down on it and reduced the requirement by two blades when the requirement should never have been so low in the first place.
ME occurring in every chase is intentional. the reason why his base-throwing mode is not main event throwing mode is balance. his base-throwing mode is worse other ranged killers due to time to injure(TTI) being worse but his main event is best throwing mode in the game because it has approximately the same time TTI as other ranged killers with added bonus that trickster does not need to re-wind up his weapon.
The intention of Main Event was to make it a reward for extremely high accuracy, and now it just rewards you for the bare minimum. I can miss 36 knives in a row but as long as I just backrev you and hit 8, I get what is basically a free down despite missing literally 81.81% of my ammo capacity.
Back-reving a survivor with knives defeats purpose of a ranged killer. The whole point of being ranged killer is to attack from outside your m1 range. @Coffeecrashing already talks about accuracy. he is not suppose to be accurate killer with 100% accuracy. Your inherent suppose to miss with him.
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I've already explained several times why I think the way I do. It feels like you're just ignoring / not reading my points honestly.
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I'm aware its intentional. I've made it clear many times why I dislike it and how I'd change it.
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I'm done with this discussion honestly (unless a Community Manager / dev wants clarification on something.)
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It has also made him much more miserable to go against, since with some addons a main event snowball is real and the main event thing makes his camping even more powerful.
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Agreed. New trickster is very hard to lose in chase, especially with Memento Blades. Increasing his base throwing speed and bumping the laceration decay time back up has made it miserable to lose him.
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Not as miserable as being on a map with only tall loops and going against survs that actually have experience. Tbh he will never be truly balanced because of how different the experience to play him is per map IMO.
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Eh, he's not nearly as map dependent as huntress, thanks to his faster speed across the board. Just gotta use your knives differently.
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Huntress is way less map dependant. If the surv knows how to loop a Trickster it's really not that simple to just get a hit w blades, especially w 8 Laceration.
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She's one of if not the MOST map dependant killer in DBD though.
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Cause despite me despising its current implementation, at least current main event can knife save a hell of a lot more often than it used to. Huntress is 110, she slows to 3.08 m/s when a hatchet is fully charged, she has partial and full charged power states and she has less health states than trickster does.
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If you're watching, Might as well leave some more miscellaneous thoughts and stuff I missed out on mentioning.
Main Event and Throw Rate additional thoughts.
Main Event being as frequent as it is kind of replaces his old throw rate mechanic, but in a less interesting way. Main Event is weird, as it simultaneously offers more counter-play to survivors while also providing way less. It provide more counter-play than old throw rate because of its additional windup time, difficult catching up to survivors behind cover, and the fatigue upon cancelling it. However, due to being such high-speed sustained fire with infinite ammo, it makes it impossible to avoid if you're caught out by it.
Compare this to Trickster's old throw rate, which gave him an option to deny survivors ability to run past him or make mistakes if he caught them out correctly, since he'd always have that option as long as he had enough knives and accuracy. Despite this, the fire rate he could achieve was not fast enough to be considered "sustained fire," as there was just enough time between throws for you to wiggle around and minimize the amount of hits you'd take. You'd be rewarded for this by wasting his ammo.
This throw rate system is much preferable to the current main event meta we have. From what I've seen, Main Event is a big talking point right now due to how ridiculous it feels on both ends. It feels crazy to be able to mow survivors down so frequently with it, and as survivor it gets annoying entering a chase with trickster only to find out he has main event, and he's trying to zone you into a spot where he can use it. This is why I want to make main event much rarer, and make it feel more earned.
How the Main Event changes affect his add-on meta.
Currently there's a spike in usage of Main-Event add-ons, as trickster currently has a main event oriented meta. Main event is so important now as it's very common and it helps a lot in saving ammo and ending chases. With the changes I proposed to main event making it less common, this would put far more focus on the addons that affect his regular throwing state, and lower the spotlight on main event addons. This is why I primarily designed addons that helped get main event faster or make it easier to activate, and lowered the rarity of the death throes addon effect, since it'll be less common in the future, despite being identical and still good when it works.
Why his ability to throw and down people fast is important
It feels like this update aimed to increase trickster's time-to-kill by a significant amount, by making his knives slower and increasing use of main event, which has a specific windup and fatigue state that's similar to other killers.
I don't understand this. I played tons of trickster before, and can vouch that his time to kill has always been very, very high most of time time. He had potential to nearly instantly down survivors, but this took accuracy, zoning, and a bit of luck to pull off. There are 4.6m/s killers who can instadown and they're balanced around that (chainsaw bros come to mind,) and I think Trickster is the same. His knives had potential to down you crazy fast, but he doesn't have much else. You had to get really good to get those quick downs consistently, and had to learn how to play the tap-and-go game when you couldn't get those instadowns. People just need to go in with the mindset that if they make a mistake it could be very lethal, and I think it would lessen the blow.
The one thing keeping trickster interesting is that he's one of the sole killers who can attack so frequently that he has very little downtime in-between health states, unlike most other killers who slow down heavily and have high cooldowns when they miss or injure a survivor. I want this aspect to remain. The current version of trickster doesn't have this appeal, as again, his base fire rate is too slow to have these instadown moments outside of main event, which has it's own problems.
Any thoughts on this?
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The different between Huntress and especially 8-blade Trickster is tho, is that if you are good enough the surv only has to show themselves for a split second to take a health state. On shack for example, a surv can deny LoS a ton if they play it smart but a Huntress easily takes advantage of the tiny moments you're seen while this is much more difficult to achieve with Trickster since the surv can take the same loop several times to deny that LoS. Especially since you'd probably have to see a surv 3/4 times where Huntress only needs to see them 1 time.
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The major difference is, Huntress needs to wind-up for 3.5x longer than trickster (1.25s of windup compared to tricksters 0.35s,) and she needs to wind-up for even longer (3s) to get a comparable projectile speed. Add to this that she moves way slower than trickster does, moving about 25% slower than survivors, meanwhile trickster only moves a mere 4% slower than a survivor. Additionally, trickster's smaller, faster projectiles are able to be thrown over, through, and below many more obstacles than huntress, especially thanks to his two different throwing angles (left and right hand vs Huntress' sole left throwing arm.) Add that trickster is now 115, and in a chase, and trickster is far more consistent when mastered.
This update really is a huge bummer. We finally could've seen trickster be decently strong and recognized for his cool aspects, but most of them were removed or nerfed. :(
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8 KNIFE LACERATION METER is good. can't low than 7
3.33 THROW RATE is enough for 4.6.
MAIN EVENT defult 5s
- E combo：+0.5秒
- D combo：+1秒
- C combo：+1.5秒
- B combo：+2秒 (8 knife)
- A combo：+2.5秒 (never)
- S combo：+3秒 (never)
B combo is enough 7s
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There is a big difference between something being "good" and something being great.
Old Trickster was great. I don't even think current trickster is good. He is massively downgraded from his old version.
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This things may be true on paper but Huntress is just way better in chase because of how little mistakes the survs can make and I'll stand by that. Run a good surv on some really strong loops with Trickster and you will notice how many times you could have gotten the injure waaaaay earlier with Huntress.
Tho I don't even really want to compare the two- I wish they both were different enough so not everyone would constantly compare them but we can only dream.
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Trickster and Huntress can both hit survivors through shack on certain areas (unless the shacks are bugged or something), so I cannot agree with this statement.
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I still fail to see how 8 blades are good when its objectively worse than 6.
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I cannot imagine many tiles where Huntress gets hits Trickster cannot. He has the fastest projectiles in the game (its afaik impossible to actually make a projectile go faster than his which are 55 m/s), his hitboxes are smaller, and his charge time is exponentially lower.
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Then don't compare them. Trickster isn't really comparable to any other killer in DBD honestly. The way he currently is feels like the original implementation of Legion with a ranged attack.
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I feel you OP. Your post reminds me of many of us Onryo mains months ago when they rolled out her rework and how we felt it made her a lot less fun to play. Between Trickers and Onryo's reworks. I hope BHVR will look at how they affect the people who enjoy and main them and avoid complete gameplay changing reworks to their power in the future.
Its okay to have niche killers that only a small amount of people take the time to learn and do well with. A lot of people say Singularity is a bad killer but for those of us that can play him well, he is actually an incredibly strong killer. Killers like this do not need reworks in my opinion just because a portion of the player base doesn't want to take the time to get good with them or just doesn't know how to take advantage of their strengths. I would be very sad if they simplified Singularity in a rework because of people complaining about their power.
Old Trickster could be a pain for many because of the recoil on his power, especially on console, but that was just part of the skill of playing him. I agree with OP that the rework did remove a lot of the fun and interesting nuances to his power. Simply making it easier to land hits with no recoil and increasing the amount of necessary hits just makes it take longer to down. However importantly it removes some of the rewarding skill of landing hits, as it removes some of the skill of playing them and managing the recoil mechanic. Changes to mechanics like this are what disappoint me most about the direction BHVR has been taking the game recently.
TLDR: A killer may be difficult to use or less popular but the people who do love them and perform well at them don't want the gameplay they enjoy to suddenly go away. It would be nice if they could try to balance or improve such killers without making the killer feel like a different killer by changing core mechanics.
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This is so true and I'm scared for Twins mains. Like, I just don't see a killers issue if they're considered weak and there are some super dedicated people that love them. Why take away someone's main just so the community can say 'This killers seems a bit better now' yet those people already have another main so they're not going to swap to said killer either. So you're literally not helping anyone and f-ing over the mains. Such weird decision making.
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Not my previous comment getting deleted bcuz of saying duck-
Anyways. What you're saying is 100% valid, BHVR should try to stop making every killer mainstream just for nobody to actually pick them up instead of forcing the mains to drop the killer.
I hope they don't change Twins too much for this exact reason.
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My Trickster Version (not including addons)
4.6 M/s, 3.86 M/s while holding knives(ramping slow), 24m Terror radius, 40m lullaby
8 knives to injure | 3 Ramping to 4 Knives per second w/ slowdown(Prerwk) | 44 ammo
15 second decay
12/16 knives to charge main event
base main event duration(6 sec) x1.66 throwrate = 6.4kps Showstopper fatigue set to 4
Combo system (same but improved)
S(8knives) = 6 second extension + 1 bounce
A(7knives) = 5 second extension + 5% movespeed to M.E.
B(6knives) = 4 second extension + bonus 5% throwrate to Main event
C(5knives) = 3 second extension
D(4knives) = 2 second extension
E(3knives) = 1 second extension
+Mapwide announcement of main event charged(for survivors)
+Visual feedback system of the combo system(let people know what combo they are at)
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Um, What does any of that have to do with my original post though?
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when you are survivor you will know how
now 4.6 is 3.3 b/s 50% acc need 16b mean need 4.85s to hit survivor. and have 10% addons when in main event is 6.12b/s means need 2.6s to down a survivor
before 4.4 is 3.5~4 b/s 50% acc need 12b mean need 3.2s to hit.
if killer still 4.4 the 6 blades are good but now is 4.6 killer.
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But this doesn't prove that 6 is worse than 8. Current throw rate is 1 blade every 0.3 seconds or 3.33333333 blades a second exactly (no rounding, I don't round usually).
0.3*8=2.4
0.3*6=1.8
This would mean that making no changes to throw rate and having it be 6 blades to take a health state, thus, 6 better than 8. I can prove this further too. 44/8 is 5.5 health states. 44/6 is 7.33333333 health states.
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Only part of these changes I agree with is the indication ME is charged whether that be a visual, audio or both, and the increased requirement of charges to get into main event. I feel like the rest of the changes are overtuning him quite a bit and further pushing main event combos which is something me and OP really don't like due to the gameplay style it incentivizes.
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Yeah i think regardless of what version of kit we land on, Oni-style charge up notification is very pivotal toward allowing people who aren't super well-versed against trickster having a better more transparent experience!
I fear that punishing Trickster from missing will disproportionately hurt console players, which is a very bad thing. buffing the combo system however i feel allows for tequila to be nerfed and flowed more into basekit- rewarding "Hole shots" and slow tempo without removing the fast paced rapidfire style altogether. from a basekit that allows multiple styles- it would allow consoles to utilize rapidfire and branch into combos when they feel its possible. Unfortunately if you punish misses i feel consoles will just never main event because the math is so painful.
Open to changing that opinion with supporting evidence though!
Post edited by Revvium on1 -
8/3=2.67s
8/3.3=2.42s
6/3=2s
6/3.3=1.82
main event:
8/5=1.6s
8/6.15=1.3s
6/5=1.2s
6/6.15=0.98s
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In addition:
-My version is 4.6mps + 8knife + 3-4 ramp.
-OP's version is 4.6mps + 6knife+3-4 ramp up (but instead of buffing players that hit well and play slower, it becomes impossible to gain main event for controllers)
I fail to understand where this is "Overtuned" when my version is just weaker. (for raw math OP's version gets downs 33% faster if being accurate and not factoring in main event, which should be usable for people who don't have inhuman accuracy)
-I am not partial to my changes, I'm being pretty open on options, but we cannot adversely tell consoles that going full rapid-fire is just gonna result in them never getting main event. Most of the OP's addons are attached to main event, which would result in most addons being unusable for controller.
It forces you to play fast to ramp up while also making it so that if your accuracy is bad you just don't get access to your iconic ability "Main Event". The ideal version of The Trickster to me is a character that bridges the gap between console and PC by giving a style that allows for M1 + rapid-fire for console (with option to combo when they can) while still giving the more accurate tricksters some "carrot to chase" which can achieve fantastical things and grand displays. My version is intentionally under-tuned for PC - because console needs to have a style that works for them.
Not just that but Trickster counter-play is unclear and undefined for a lot of survivors, giving a notification and increasing his punishment for not killing with main event will help a TON with his frustration, I really like the intensity that the new version provides, but this low dependency on ammo as well as his unclear counter-play is an area that demands improvement!
That being said, consoles not being able to main event because they missed 2 knives in 14 isn't okay. and would be a DISASTER as this rework was supposed to bridge the gap between controller and mouse + keyboard.
Lastly, The Trickster needs a base-kit that allows for addon diversity. If you don't have a base-kit with a lot of knobs, then its hard to give him good variety. All of which could be greatly improved upon, the combo system is a good addition for addon reasons and so is ramp up. but it needs to be done elegantly. and -2 for missing to "Main Event" charges is debilitating.
Much love, excited to see the future of The Trickster regardless of where he lands and I'm hoping we can fit in some snipe buffing addons as well for some sick clips and fun stylistic diversity. - Revium 💞
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Some of yall disrespect controller too much. I've used it and it is not that bad. Plus, I've seen people who are very well-adjusted to controllers do much more difficult things in much more skill demanding games than DBD. Please do not act like it is impossible to aim with, that is simply disingenuous.
In the same way. Mouse + Keyboard is not a free accuracy hack. It took me years to develops good accuracy with mouse for Trickster specifically, and that's piggybacking off of over a decade of experience playing first person shooters with mouse and keyboard.
It all comes down to your comfort with a character. Once you get used to the windup time, projectile speed, throwing arc, throwing angles, etc, it becomes more natural to aim. I admit my ideas demand a lot of accuracy, more so than what people are used to in DBD I'm sure, but I think that's an important part of the character. Legions 5-Hit Down is a part of their power that doesn't come into play all that often, but it's still there because it gives their power a threat.
Maybe you could argue 2 health states is too much for an accuracy-based main event and I might agree, but I will not have my idea shot down because "Console players can't aim." That's disrespectful to controller users and overhypes the dependancy of main event in his kit, which I've attempted to argue against in my multiple posts. I don't like Main Event and don't want it being a major part of his kit, but rather an occasional thing like it used to be.
I very intentionally shoved it out of the kit for less skilled players because it never encouraged skillful gameplay to begin with, and I think it's better for the character if this ability is limited to a slightly challenging condition first. I'd be fine with lowering the requirement to something between 6-10 knives, but I really don't think 12 is asking much to begin with. as long as you hit the majority of knives without missing you should still have it pretty often.
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Hello,
I have been following this thread, and I also have seen some of your posts on Twitter. Since the subject of controller and console players has come up….I thought I’d chime in. Especially because I think you misinterpreted what Revvium was trying to say. And I want to make sure Revvium knows that no one I know (controller player) or at least myself, took that the wrong way.
For context, I am a console player. 1000 hours on DBD, and have 600 hours on Trickster alone. I am p100 with him, iri rank, and I play Trickster religiously. Hes the only killer I really play but I do play survivor too. I am involved in the Trickster community, and a content creator exclusively for Trickster and showing what you can do on the controller with Trickster. For better or worse gameplay. I hold and participate in Trickster matches in customs, with all types of platforms, and with different skill leveled Tricksters. So helping people practice with Trickster and going against many different Tricksters myself. I am probably one of the better controller players on console. And I also encourage top PC Trickster Mains to play on controller for fun. Not just because I find it funny, but because I know its hard, and I want them to experience it for themselves since they have a platform in the Trickster community. They would agree, controller is just a whole other beast. I also have been practicing with Mnk, so that I can better understand the differences between Console and PC with Trickster. All that to say, that I am not just thinking of myself, and my particular playstyle but other Trickster mains from a variety of backgrounds when I agree or make suggestions.
Revvium is not being disingenuous. I would argue, and please don’t take this the wrong way, but it kind of sounds like you are. You posted a clip on Twitter I guess to showcase that the controller wasn’t as hard as people make it out to be….about skill issue, or about controller players saying its harder to play Trickster on controller and they just need practice. It sounds like based on your few matches you determined its not that hard at all. While that is appreciated that you took the time to investigate controller to give an opinion… Let me be very clear on this as someone who has been playing Trickster on controller for hundreds of hours, as well as talking with other controller Tricksters who have thousands of hours, it will NEVER have the same advantages as Mnk, and will always be Hard Mode for Trickster in regards to accuracy. There is even advantages and gaps between controller on PC vs controller on console. Thats okay. We controller/console players relish in that difficulty and in being Trickster chads of the Trickster community. Yet we do appreciate BHVR’s consideration and attempts to address frustrations. Even so, Trickster on controller is still inherently harder, and there is nothing BHVR can do to alleviate inaccuracy when using a joystick with this character. Again that’s okay, we still enjoy the character. With that said, saying its not hard and that it can be the same on Mnk with just more practice, or that is skill issue….when you are not a console player, that seems disingenuous.
You said that you bet you could get better at Trickster with controller in your Twitter post, well Im here to tell you, yes you can, but you will still miss knives. There will always be a level of limitations and disadvantages. You will miss knives regardless to how many hours you put in this character when on controller, with good survivors. Hell most people cant avoid that on PC with Trickster, but on controller no matter how skilled you get, its going to be harder to be pixel-perfect accurate with moving survivors or survivors who know how to counter Trickster properly. That is what Revvium is saying by your accuracy restriction on Main Event, with the negative charges for missed blades giving another level of frustration for console players. Why should that be a punishment system?
I think BHVR is doing its best to tackle this gap between the two platforms in regards to this character. Balancing him so he doesn’t feel unfun to play for PC Trickster mains, while making it easier for console/controller players AND while also keeping the skill expression for both platforms to enjoy. That’s quite the undertaking actually. This Trickster is not perfect, and can of course be further improved, but he was reworked with the intent to make things easier for console. As much as that pains me to say because I did play 4.4 Trickster all the way to p99 and would have liked to believe that I could have been as good as a top Trickster PC player with 4.4 Trickster, but the truth is controller will always have some limitation. Especially on console.
I don’t agree that hes having an identity crisis with Main Event, but I do agree he could use improvements. I have voiced that I didn’t like the frequent Main Event, but understand especially after playing him more, that the free knives you get from Main Event are critical to using him efficiently now. The new skill in accuracy is in how many chases you can go without reloading.
I don’t think going back to 6 knife to injure/ 12 to down, or that Main Event should go back to 30 knives to activate would work with this Trickster. This Trickster is meant to be fast and intense. I think 12 knives to activate Main Event wouldn’t break him however, and I like the idea of rolling some of Tequila duration percentage length into basekit, that would be nice, while improving the Combo System (buffing it significantly) to reward accuracy. Revvium already suggests such a buff. I think the Combo system is a good idea, its just weak right now. Giving us a reward system for being accurate as we all want and can agree on.
Main Event is at the core of this character. It feels a bit strange to hear someone say they intentionally shoved Main Event out of the way......Even with 4.4 Trickster Main Event was at the heart of this character and what gave him a competitive edge against swf and higher mmr. I would not disregard his secondary power as something you just occasionally think about at rarity, that you either get or dont...but didn't matter either way. His power makes him unique. It was never a bad power, just bad usage of it on the players part when he was 4.4. The same can be said about current Trickster Main Event and how people are using him or refuse to use him.
Anyway, I just wanted to respond to some of the things being said about controller, and hopefully clear anything up that might be misunderstood about playing Trickster on console.
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Main Event is not a core part of the character. Never was. It's a core part of NEW Trickster, because you are required to use it to get good results. I could go many many many games of previous trickster without using Main Event and still have fun and get good results with just his old regular throwing mode.
I do not want Main Event to be a core part of his kit, I've given many reasons as to why I don't enjoy it, and it's a common sentiment among my friends and people I see on social media. I will absolutely own the fact that my idea to rework it isn't perfect and could be replaced/altered in many ways, but I still maintain that the basic foundation of "Hit Knives accrue main event, and it never loses progress" is simply not a good way to balance the ability. I think it should be something that can build up quickly if you're good but can also be taken away quickly if you don't play optimally to some degree.
at this point, I'd 100% be willing to accept a different idea, along the lines of the meter draining slowly after long periods without hitting knives, lowering the amount of charges lost when missing, or heck just reworking what main event is fundamentally. But I don't like the current existing version at all, it lacks nuance that trickster's old throwing mode had. And at this point, i'd easily sacrifice main event entirely if it meant getting trickster's old basic throwing mode back.
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Also I feel like I should mention it, Just reverting the laceration meter to 6 alone would be enough to keep me playing forever. But his bad add-ons, messy main event balancing and weird changes to throw rate also hurt the fun of the character heavily in my mind.
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I don't believe these would be good for anyone.
BHVR wants Trickster to be more chase oriented and less frustrating on both sides. He's a complicated killer to balance but these changes would drive frustration to the max on each side.
1. 4.6m/s Trickster is always on top of the survivor losing little to no distance when played correctly. While shooting half a health state a second is fine, him being anything below 8 knife Trickster at 4.6m/s would be a huge problem not to mention ramp up. Ramp up and 6 knife Trickster would be fine for the 4.4 version. As a 4.6 killer I feel Trickster would make survivors feel exhausted. Every knife is a 50/50. 6 50/50s vs 8 50/50s / 12 50/50s vs 16 50/50s is a huge difference for the survivor especially because he's fast now. Making it 1 mistake would just make them go down a lot quicker. This referencing places where he's good at ( open area, short loops)
2. Anything below 15s decay will make the Trickster's life more miserable where he struggled the most (shack, main, Jungle gyms etc.) and even the tiles where he's fine now would become an issue (majority of rock loops and similar loops). Rendering his power useless in more than 50% of the tiles. Not to mention he's not a hitscan so his knives are very dodgable from range. Rendering people's snipes and hole shots pointless, basically handicapping yourself for going for them. Killing your own playstyle as well. The lower decay pushes " back rev Trickster play " to be the only way he'd get health states. As said before lower decay makes it so hold w is way stronger. It forces him to be at the mercy of a survivor. One pre drop, pre vault, stun... him going around, breaking the pallet, vaulting gives survivors enough distance that by the time he catches up the laceration is already gone. We've proven it with 10s, 12s is an extra 1.2 meters of distance at 4.6 which wouldn't do much for him. No, decay add ons are not a fix. Forgot mention that controller players are not as efficient as mouse and keyboard players. Rendering him again to be an only mouse and keyboard killer again.
3. Your main event suggestion solidifies him as just a weaker huntress. Completely removing his identity. Making him a huntress that has to shoot more projectiles and at the same time being able to lose power progression which would just further make people question his existence when there are better ranged killers. The devs want his power to be accessible and not feel like you're playing Dark Souls. Main event is an ammo saver ability that completely nullifies Trickster's mobility for the sake of saving knives. The no reload 4.4 required at best 69% accuracy out of 44 knives less out of 52 knives. According to your main event requirements that Trickster
Would have Main event meter at 2 charges average. Hitting 30 - missing 14 is 30 - 28 ( 2 charge loss per miss) equaling to 2 charges on average. For every miss you'd need to hit 3 knives to compensate. For the good Tricksters it took from 12-20 ammo to get a down at best. In your case 6 missed knives reset the entire main event meter to 0. Not to mention that you could potentially lose main event even if you got the timer because you wanted to do old main event tricks ( 5 knife etc.) just cause you missed a knife or 2.
Even the best Trickster main that did a 250+ winstreak while reloading in less than 10 matches is just baffled by your suggestions. Not to mention, not just the fact that main event is unobtainable (especially on controler) you've tied +50% add ons to it rendering them completely useless. The highest skill ceiling add on requiring a down in main event to replenish knives. Really? It makes me question whether you're really a Trickster main. Another fact BHVR changes Trickster to be chase oriented so could be less effective at preventing unhooks and such. Your main even stipulation encourages camping since in main event he takes a 1 health state a second enabling unhook prevention. If that's the only way people could get it they'll do it.
4. Forgot to mention that your kit goes against itself. Be rewarded for not missing but at the same time encouraged to rapid fire which lead to more misses.
Not to mention you'd suggest the killing of Trick blades when they're not an add on that isn't just free value or easy to use.
Trickster is not a hit and run killer to have hemorrhage or the oblivious effect add ons. Oblivious and hemorrhage will more likely encourage going back to the hook and tunneling.
Your suggestions will just amplify frustrations on both sides
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I agree that old Trickster had a special feeling in base-kit without main event. I just don't think gutting main event needs to happen in order to restore the basekit flashiness we had before.
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OPs changes do not gut main event, they make it fairer to acquire and go against. I'd personally make 1 miss = 1 charge lost rather than two if it were up to me.
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This entire thread is basically why I posted in the main feedback thread that they desperately need to make an add on that basically pushed the "undo" button on the rework. The changes were too large and varied to make everyone happy. And essentially deleting someone's favorite playable character is the fastest way to get them to hate you.
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YES MEMENTO BLADES SHOULD BE "6 knife to lacerate, 4.4 m/s and it would be great. put more power into basekit, nerf main event addons etc.
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The OP conveyed the intent to "make it much less valuable in the base kit" forgive me if I'm using verbiage that can be pieced together through context as to what I mean. And yes, the math works out to gutting it from the basekit because it would require a 80% accuracy rating which current 1000+ hr trickster mains don't maintain. let alone controller aim can make possible, let alone what first time trickster on controller can make possible. It would absolutely be an axe to main event.
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Listen man, I understand you don't seem to like me or my ideas based on our various interactions. But the fact that in the many times we've talked you've never offered a single constructive idea to bounce back at me is pretty bothersome. You only defend current trickster and seem to dismiss the mere idea that he could be better, and FEEL better for both sides by a mile. I don't care that "old trickster was dark souls" and don't wanna hear nonsense comparisons like "Worse Huntress." I'm trying to have productive conversations here about a character I enjoyed playing.
Oh, and if you're "questioning if I'm a trickster main," I think my gameplay speaks for itself, thanks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhhCdKgwLiM
Regardless of all that, I think we just fundamentally disagree about the design of the character. I think Main Event in it's entirety adds nothing to Trickster's identity. It's not special. It's more of the same. It's fundamentally just throwing knives faster, which I don't think is hugely necessary with the re-implementation of trickster old throwing rate, which gets the job done much more effectively and with more control. Infinite ammo sustained fire is never going to be as interesting as the dynamic throw rate, which added so much to the character in my opinion.
That said, I agree that adding the penalty AND increasing the requirement to 12 was too much. But, I still do think there should be some way to lose stacks. Though to be honest: I don't know how exactly to get it right without sacrificing some add-on slots to just forever be duplicates, which I don't find fun. Initially I had it so that you'd only lose 1 charge per miss, but I was so creatively bankrupt when it came time to make add-ons that I couldn't think of a new one, so I increased it to 2 so I could have an excuse to make a new addon that decreased it.
Other than that, I'm not sure what else to say. I pretty much wholeheartedly maintain my core stance that 6-Knife Meter is the best route for the character, followed up by returning to his old throw rate, in exchange for main event taking a hit to it's usefulness. I also hate duplicate add-ons, so I tried to come up with as many unique ones as I could. Some of them were bad and hapless, I'll own that, but I also firmly believe you underestimate how obnoxiously easy Trick Blades are to use.
While yes the calculated shots the add-on allows are great, the add-on is commonly used by trickster players who don't put much effort into aiming, and instead opt to bring indoor maps and just spam in the general direction of a survivor hoping one will land. I added the range limit to encourage Trickster players to actually aim directly at Survs at medium range, and only use the ricochet effect when actually playing tiles in smart ways. I feel like that is more than fair given all the other buffs I want to see come to normal trickster, but I think the range could be increased to be fair.
After reading all the comments, I own the fact that my proposed rework here wasn't perfect, so I've taken the initiative and decided to revamp it again, simplifying it much more.
This way, I get all the old basekit mechanics I loved, all the fun add-ons I like, every part of the kit is pretty strong but not overtuned, and you get your 15s decay back and better trick blades. Let me know if you have any problems with this and try to actually be constructive regardless of whether or not you disagree with some changes.
(Keep in mind Main Event's duration is very short now, but this is to compensate for the fact that you have to hit less knives during it for a health state than before. I feel like that's a worthy trade-off)
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You're still heavily punishing killers for missing blades. I seriously hope BHVR ignores the entire thing.
I get it. You want to make Youtube montages, even if they involve survivors that clearly have zero idea on how to play against Trickster. But that's not practical, and doesn't help against survivors that know what they are doing.
Current Trickster is way better than your suggestions, because at least he somewhat has rapid fire gameplay, even if it often encourages Trickster to purposely injure a survivor at 6 or 7 stacks, so Trickster isn't on a time limit to activate main event... and it's super awkward that is often the optimal way to play Trickster.
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Current trickster only has rapid fire gameplay with an add-on.
My suggestion is a buff in basically every single regard, with main event being the sole exception. How is that not enough for you? Because you have a specific, dull, conceptual idea for the killer? And I instead just want a return to what already worked for years and was fun? Your logic makes no sense to me.
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As I mentioned before, the entire point of rapid fire gameplay, is accepting the fact that Trickster shouldn't ever be expected to have 100%, or near 100% accuracy. So every single idea you create, that heavily punishes Trickster for missing, is garbage. And yes, frequent Main Events are a mandatory part of rapid fire gameplay, as it's the only time he can bother to try hitting survivors that aren't near him, because of how easy it is to micro dodge knives at mid to far ranges.
We already have a projectile killer that heavily encouraged to have 100% accuracy (Huntress), and Trickster needs to have rapid fire gameplay in order to have his own identity, and a reason to pick him instead of Huntress. And yes, people can make Youtube montages from Huntress hatchets, so "I want to make montages" isn't an good enough excuse to ruin Trickster for the rest of us.
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Its a middle ground between old 30 blade and current 6 though. I feel there's a lack of consideration of the surv experience here, so I'm just going to agree to disagree.
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If you think OPs ideas are garbage why engage? Its fine to agree to disagree. There's nothing constructive coming out of this.
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