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Why 'Forfeit' or 'No DC penalty' would be problematic
I've seen a few places now where people keep asking for Forfeit options and/or no DLC penalties. Suicide on Hook is of course an issue, and a common solution suggestion is to allow people to give up or allow people to leave for a bot.
The fundamental issue with adding/allowing these things is how common they will become.
If you take away DC penalties, you can't really give Survivors no DC penalty without giving Killers the same. The moment a Killer or Survivor doesn't have things going their way, they'll just dip, and we'll keep on having to queue constantly. Survivors at least have bots, however even if its survivor only, this will result in people leaving for the slightest infraction. Killers they don't like, perks they don't like, maps they don't like, teammates missing a skillcheck, teammates messing up a trade or getting caught as they go for the unhook... we'll be playing with bots a hell of a lot more... I would reckon it'd happen almost every game, and in my experience once there is a bot in the game, it always snowballs out of control, because while OK, the bots can't mirror a humans understanding on when to trade hook stages, or lose a hook stage to break an important gen.
So why not a Forfeit option? The problem with a Forfeit option is the same issue you get with games like League of Legends. Hardly any games will go to completion. Once the other side gets a little bit ahead, players will start trying to Forfeit. Again we hit the issue that if you're a killer, there is only you, so you can just decide to nope out of a game the moment it doesn't start going your way. You'll get "Garden of Joy? Forfeit. Looped for 2 gens? Forfeit. Successful Flashlight of Buckle Up save? Forfeit." practically every single time. Once again if we make it survivor only, you'll get people hitting the Forfeit button for the team to vote on every single time they aren't happy with the killer, with the map, with the perks in play for either side, someone makes a mistake around an unhook, or misses a skillcheck. Thing is, even if you want you soldier on, your teammates constantly begging you to forfeit will annoy you into submission. They spend more time screwing about trying to convince you to forfeit than just sucking it up, and eventually you get to the point you realise noone is even playing anymore, the game is lost, so you give up too.
I've been playing video games over 30 years, online games for 20. Trust me, you don't want either of things. They get VERY annoying... every game ends in players quitting a third of the way through the game on either side, players just nope out at the slightest inconvenience, you constantly have to keep hitting 'No' on a vote system while trying to play. Take it from someone who has gone through it over decades of gaming... all of your wins will feel hollow... and all of yours losses will feel bitter. If you think you hate playing the game now... you don't know anything until you add features like this.
Suicide on Hook at 5 gens is annoying yes... but at least it comes with the risk of everyone reporting that player (which needs to be improved tbh). DCing for a bot at least isn't common because it comes with a penalty. It's not perfect... but its far better than every game being empty, and the few games you are doing well and enjoying coming to an abrupt halt cause the other side just gave in.
Comments
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Suicide on Hook at 5 gens is annoying yes... but at least it comes with the risk of everyone reporting that player (which needs to be improved tbh).
I don't know if the "needs to be improved" means it should become reportable but currently hook suicides are allowed: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/2556314/#Comment_2556314
Click the link for full context, that thread is about hook suicide at 5 generators and Mandy says that it's not reportable.
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Actually missed that discussion, guess I'll stop reporting players who do it...
However in my defence the description for one of the report sections reads:
Unsportsmanlike Conduct
Use this option to report a player for purposefully losing the game, not participating in or disconnecting from the game early to avoid defeat. Examples: AFKing, rage quitting idling, and refusing to participate in normal gameplay
Obviously reading the thread does highlight that attempting to unhook yourself and letting yourself die for hatch are mechanics. What this rule is depicting is going AFK to lose. So I understand it'd be very difficult if not impossible to police SoH.
However the issue is ofc, when people refer to Suiciding on Hook, they mean running to the killer, getting downed and then deliberately going for unhooks to get to stage 2, then letting the skillchecks go by uncontested so they die.
This does fill this criteria rules as written... so it's no wonder people get confused.
Edit: Maybe we need a community rule.
If you see someone suiciding on hook, let survivors save, down that player and leave them on the floor, with the mutual understanding of letting them bleed out. Let them get crows, then report them for AFK 😈😈😈😈
If lucky, maybe they'll DC for a bot, in which case you allow the reset and continue the game. They get their deserved DC penalty, and the game continues.
If nothing else, everyone will feel better. 😁🤘
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The option to forfeit I think is a terrible idea.
As for the DC penalties, I don't think they should be removed. But if they were removed, it wouldn't suddenly create a massive problem.
They weren't here from the start, and you didn't get DCs every game just because there was no penalty. Yes, you would see DCs more often than you do nowadays (unless you play against Skull Merchant), but there wasn't a constant wave of disconnects or anything like that.
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You may be right, but in other games I've seen without DC penalties, rage quits are common.
You take a game with drop in/drop out gameplay like Counter Strike, Team Fortress 2, CoD, Left 4 Dead, or even something that isn't/is not so friendly to drop in/out like Fifa Pro Teams or Killing Floor, you get leavers in set matches all the time.
In those games it doesn't matter so much, but in DBD it's very important, and games with a similar level of matchmaking importance like LoL, DotA, Rainbow Six, they all impose harsh penalties for leaving, way worse than DBD because it negatively impacts the game for everyone else so severely.
I've always been quite surprised how lenient BHVR is on leavers tbh compared to similar companies, which makes me laugh when people ask for penalties to be removed.
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Yes the in-game report menu is terrible and completely irrelevant. Only the game rules page matters. The report menu also says to report for disconnects which the game rules say explicitly to NOT report (https://support.deadbydaylight.com/hc/en-us/articles/4408581146516-What-actions-will-result-in-a-temporary-ban-).
Fortunately the developers are aware of it and will definitely fix it (October 2021): https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/2556458/#Comment_2556458
It's a very complicated thing to fix so obviously the 2+ years they have known about it is not enough to do anything about it.
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I think too many players have demonstrated their willingness to just quit if things aren't exactly as they want them.
Players should get a DC penalty and the accumulating lock out is relatively fair in my opinion.
As for bleeding out, its not holding the game hostage because there is a timer that's what bleeding out is the mechanic the prevents you from lying on the ground getting held hostage in game till you DC. You will eventually bleed out.
Frankly 4 mins isn't that long no matter how short attention spans and patience have become.
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Keeps the support team staff demand high I suppose. Always appreciate job security 😅
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Ah well, this is based only in my experience back when we didn't have the penalties.
Maybe people would be more inclined to rage quit than they were back then. Or not.
Either way, they shouldn't be removed.
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I hope BHVR isn’t planning on removing it. If people are having so little fun that they feel the need to DC every game then maybe they just shouldn’t be playing.
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make it so you have to play at least 5 minutes
Post edited by EQWashu on1 -
You still create the problem of people quitting at 5mins if the game isn't going their way. An average game of DBD can last longer than 5 mins. Having a hard time cap that allowed quitting would just mean a lot of game just end at 5mins as the team that either feels like it losing or isn't getting exactly what it wants from the game can just leave making for very underwhelming outcomes for all.
The only time I've been in a real stalemate is with the ol SM 3-gen. In which case I try my best to progress the objective or die trying.
People always come at me when I have this take saying "so you just quit and die then" but no what I mean is I try and repair and play around a gen getting in the killers face as much as possible in the hope my team can complete another gen and if I die while doing that, then at least I've tried my best and can move on satisfied with that.
As for being genuinely held hostage by a cheater with blind hacks and the old un-hookable power, that has been the only time I've tabbed out of the game and played something else/went and made a cup o tea/watched a movie. Helps to have a comp powerful enough that DBD can run in the back ground with little impact. Fortunately those cases are very rare.
Post edited by EQWashu on0 -
There shouldn't be DC penalties.
Ideally, we'd have Killer bots, but that's actually pretty difficult to program.
It only screws over toxic people, which is a certified W. People who DC at every inconvenience? Well, they never really get to play a game. People who enjoy making others miserable? They also get ######### because people will just DC. Also helps with burnout and allows players to feel in control. The average player doesn't DC unless they are at their wits end.
Definitely better than trying to force players to play a miserable game that they have no interest in playing.
Also, shoutout to that one guy who said that DC penalties should eventually result in a hardware perma-ban.
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If anything DC penalties should be harsher and killing yourself on hook should be reportable. As a survivor I don't want to play with bot teammates and as killer I don't want to play against bots. I play an online multiplayer game to play with and against real people, anything that causes even more DCs, which removing the DC penalty would massively do, is a terrible idea.
Also, something a lot of people don't realise is that removing the DC penalty would also cause killers to DC much more often, which just stops the game completely.
We need to fight against this "The moment I'm not having 100% fun I'm not playing" entitled attitude. You can't remove it completely but much harsher punishments would drastically lower the amount of whiners who throw their toys out of the pram whenever something bad happens to them.
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Suicide on Hook not bannable so everyone reporting them does nothing.
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killers dc anyways the DC penalties only hurts killers anyways because survivors can Suicide on Hook killers are stuck in game or they have to take DC penalties.
thing is when the killer dc they get DC penalties and survivors get to keep all the point they got in that match and get to another match pretty fast can't say the same for killer who dced.
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Remove 4%, add forfeit at 5 min.
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Trust me, you don't want that. Every game will end in 5 minutes
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at 5 min the game should be minimum halfway over. I guess you could make it 7 or 8 min.
Since the games are so short I'd prefer just no surrender option tbh, I don't understand how a game that's so short makes some people so miserable they need to leave right off the bat.
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I'd be more OK with a Forfeit at 15 minutes, if someone is just trying to stall and hold someone hostage.
However yeah, I'm with you, games are over so fast, forfeit doesn't make sense.
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If you see someone suiciding on hook, let survivors save, down that player and leave them on the floor, with the mutual understanding of letting them bleed out. Let them get crows, then report them for AFKI don't think that would really do anything.
1: If BHVR really cared about AFKs, they could handle it themselves. The game already detects AFKs, if they deeply cared about it they could just program some type of X amount crow time in Y amount of hours results in a DC penalty.
2: I don't think the AFK rule is meant to apply to situations were you cannot progress. More for players who AFK from the very beginning and do so repeatedly.
So why not a Forfeit option?There's a few things that could be done to address most of your concerns.
1: The forfeit could have conditions. The most obvious would be a time limit, but if the worry was people would just wait to that point it could be based on something in the game. Say if a survivor is killed and there are still 3+ gens to go survivors get the option to say they have no chance.
2: Spamming could be addressed by never showing what the other survivors have put in.
3: No games go to completion: this could partly be addressed by given a countdown timer of 30 seconds. So the killer can't forfeit to deprive the survivors of getting out the exit (however, the forfeit does stop the idea of survivors just hanging around the exit gates forever).
Additionally, not going to completion is not a huge deal. One of downsides of DbD is that the end game can be long and pointless. Yes, DbD has exciting ends were you are rushing to the gate with the killer on your heels (or rushing at the survivors trying to get them before the line), but also times you're just lying on the ground bleeding out.
I highly doubt DbD would give serious thought to a forfeit issue, it would mess with pips, probably MMR, and the games theme. But I don't think the problems you mention are big deals especially given that people will throw a game when its not going well already, this would just speed up the process.
I've been playing video games over 30 years, online games for 20.You young kids with your new fangled ideas and gadgets. It sounds like you didn't even have the joy of an Atari or trying to play an FPS on a 33.6 K modem. 😋
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I did have an Atari computer as a kid. Sensible Soccer was my jam 🤣🤣🤣
I only speak from the experience of a number of online games I've been borderline addicted to over the years. A forfeit system starts to become the standard result of the game.
Take League of Legends for example, you can quit after 15 minutes. Average game is 25-30 minutes.
You get this annoying scenario where whenever you do well your opponent just gives up. You might get a couple of kills over your opponent, a couple of turret plates, and they immediately try to 'ff' (Finish Fast). If the rest of your team is going even or just slightly ahead, you might make a good play at a fight at Dragon, and get a Triple kill for your team, and now you're a long way ahead. You now have a legit problem where you've just transitioned to mid game, and you have quite a lead. You're just one won team fight away from the enemy team just quitting... it's legit a strategy to deliberately die to give the team hope instead of FF...and they still might just give up the next lost teamfight anyway.
Now you mirror that scenario, where you're the one that's losing, and now your team is the one considering FFing. Your team tries to gank your fed opponent, loses the exchange, you get flamed, you get reported for losing, (reported for losing a game... it's really that bad), and your team FF, you don't even get to try to come back into the game.
So now you have a game where maybe 1 game in 8 or 9 goes past 15 mins, and that 1 game is the one opportunity to have any real fun. The rest of the time, the game is a bland, boring quit-a-thon whenever you're winning, and you just get slapped around when you're losing. Your average game experience becomes empty and hollow.
You can try to impose limits, but you make it a reasonable limit to forfeit, people just give up as soon as they're losing. You make it a harsh limit, the game is almost over anyway. As someone who doesn't like to just give up, if you wanna still try and play, every time the vote cooldown comes up you have to vote again. Its the fact you have to keep voting that gets annoying.
At least now, the other players need to be dead to get hatch. If there are 3 of you, it keeps you trying for gens... you've not got anything better to do. Having a forfeit breeds a culture of players just giving up, and in my experience it slowly rots games from the core.
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30 years ago is around when the first Playstation was released, not the Atari... 20 years ago, most ppl had decent enough internet to game off of. Heck, you had games like WoW being released.
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i think real reason why was forfeit was never implemented in dbd is to prevent a concept called lobby shopping. the idea is many people would go into a game. see if they're winning. if they're losing. forfeit. go next until they get a game where they're winning/having fun.
the dev for most part don't want that. survivors killing themselves on hook is form of lobby shopping.
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Cheers for the responses folks, they are always enlightening, and I always have respect for the opinions in this forum... However I just wanted to say to anyone advocating for a forfeit... please do not underestimate how often people will forfeit if it gets added.
I'm overly verbose I know, I like to debate, I like to argue, and I like to learn. I try to be unbiased in what I say and post, and I like to explain my perspective clearly so it is understood, and am happy to be proved wrong... but I realise on this particular topic I might come across as a little tinfoil hatty... but that's because I've seen these kind of things make games very unfun numerous times.
This game has some pretty nasty and unfun things in it sometimes, things don't go your way, things feel cheap and frustrating... but when things do go your way, it gives you a great high... the highs counterbalance the lows, that's why we play it. If the lows outweigh the highs... we stop playing.
If you allow forfeits... you'll rarely see the high, and the only games you'll feel are the cheap frustrating ones. I can tell you from experience... nothing will make you more bitter than playing out your losing games, and people forfeiting on your winning games.
You will rapidly get to the point that most games feel empty... losses will continue to feel bad, wins feel empty. You stop caring, and that apathy is what truly ruins a game for you.
If I see forfeit become a serious suggestion, I will argue against it tooth and nail... with exception of maybe a 15 minutes forfeit... and maybe with the option for the opposing side to accept the forfeit, or reject it and continue against bots.
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DC penalties need to stay.
Otherwise matches would almost never be finished normally.
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Just add a forfeit option but only let people forfeit on either side if like 5 minutes have passed (Scott Jund came up with this idea)
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So nothing would change.
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The first thing I thought of was all the Nurse/Skull Mechant games were all the survivors hide for 5 minutes and forfeit. I think it would be worth it just to read the future posts complaining about it.
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DC penalties can stay, but there needs to be a cap on how much they stack. There is no reason for them to stack to multiple days. Zero, zilch, nada. Some suggested 30 minutes or an hour, but anything beyond that is just excessive and unnecessary.
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With the addition to bots replacing DC'd teammates, that defeated every purpose of leaving the DC penalty in. Both sides DC at random. Juice the killer for too long? They DC. 2 tap someone 20 seconds into the match? That survivor or their teammate will DC. Killer someone doesn't like? DC. Also, why punish survivors being left on the ground to bleed out and wanting to go next? What fun is left in the match when you're left with or faced with bots? Increasing the penalty and advocating for harsher punishments will just steer people away. No one should have to be forced to stay in a match if they're being bled out til timer expires or a match turns to a stalemate or there are only bots left.
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Forfeiting should never be a thing because there are far too many players out there who already disconnect on their first hook, causing issues for others. If a forfeit option ever came into existence, it would be abused to absolute stupid levels of embarrassment; leaving a number of bots in trials which can be easily picked off and ruin it for those decent enough to play on.
Likewise, the disconnect timeout should also stay since of someone is upset enough to dip out and potentially messing the trial up for others for selfish reasons ought to take a timeout to cool down. If they dc a number of times, then that's a number of games potentially screwed, so the penalty should go higher.
For those who disconnect because of something beyond their control (a powercut or home emergency), then it'll probably be likely it's so rare they won't even notice a penalty, since by the time they get back on the ban would have been and gone, so it won't effect them.
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A lot would change.
I played during the "No DC penalty" period.
I had almost no games as killer because everyone just quit. There's a nice video of cmwinter showcasing this.
Right now, most of my games are played out to the end. I rarely have DC. I sometimes have people giving up, but no DC.
Giving this option to this playerbase ends in chaos.
Sorry. Agree to disagree.
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Did you actually play during the period of the game that had no penalty for leaving or did you play while it was disabled. There's a MASSIVE difference.
Way back when, I saw DC's just as much as I see hook suicides or DC's now, the reason they were more numerous for you is because disabling the DC penalty is a new shiny toy, it would fade in novelty. There's no reason to have a system to punish people who DC when we have bots. All that does is encourage people to suicide on hook instead.
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So you suggest holding a player hostage that doesn't want to be in that game any longer? Doesn't sound like a solution, just sounds like you want to troll someone.
Hook Suicides are not the root of the issue, if BHVR started solving root issues, we wouldn't even be here.
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I'll happily punish someone for screwing over the rest of their team, yes. If that person wants to act like a child, I have no problem treating them like one and putting them in time out.
You joined a game that requires 5 players, then kicked your toys outta the pram and refused to play, after you already agreed. I don't tunnel, I don't camp, I don't usually play meta.
If you're so selfish that you are willing to ruin my, and 3 other people games after making that implied agreement, then all courtesy goes off the table.
You reward behaviour you want to see, you punish behaviour you don't, its that simple.
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This, this is the problem. I have been in so many matches where I was left on first hook for absolutely no reason. My teammates staring at a totem or hiding in a locker. Basement camping is still a thing and totally worthless to attempt to get a teammate. Soloq is an issue or the new matchmaking. Yes I have died on first hook on purpose because I can see my teammates do absolutely nothing. Anti camp does nothing, haste after hooking does nothing, there needs to be actual improvements. There is no teamwork. So if I want to dip.out of a game I should be able to.
Maybe DC penalties should be tabled for a period. Then games with two or more DC's can be reviewed and see what the problem actually is. Is it survivor crybaby or is it actual killer gameplay. Maybe give a reason on all platforms for a DC. This would actually determine why. The system can not tell pocket loss from pushing a button.
To be clear I have made stupid mistakes as a survivor and still stayed in the game.
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If you want to play against bots for 3 months straight, go ahead.
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I could just play Skull Merchant for three months
Also, disappointed you didn't engage with my points at all
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I think a forfeit option should exist if all 4 survivors dc from the killer side
or your 3 teammates dc and you are left on your own with bots
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Ok. Thought you like short answers.
I played during the time where there was no penalty. You could dc and there would be no time out.
I had survivors quitting for all kinds of reasons. Sometimes just because of the killer I played, the map, that they got found first, no deliverance, dh didn't work out offerings not fine and so on.
It was honestly ridiculous. I quit playing the game after a couple of days because i barely got any games where all five played the game out.
This is not how the game should be. If someone doesn't want to play, they should maybe rethink before going into a lobby before ruining the game for the other 4. Maybe it's not their day to play dbd. The others should have to suffer for that. A bot doesnt make it better.
This is a problem with the selfish mindset many players in this game have. "I dont like to play anymore, therefore I quit. I dont care about the others".
Maybe don't start playing then?
Everyone knows how the game is. Therefore they should know what they can encounter. Going into a match, seeing that it's a killer you dont like and quitting is not ok.
"But you can't force people to play something they dont like!"
Of course you can't. But maybe these players that quit by the first sight of a killer they don't like, a map they don't like, a perk they don't like or an item they do t like should seriously reconsider before pushing that start button.
Quitting every match until you find that soloq - group or that no - slowdown - Hillybilly is insane. A lot of players think that way. You know it, I know it.
I stand by my point. I like to play matches out.
This was my Ted talk.
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And so what do you propose?
The game cannot go on like this indefinitely. People DC, people AFK, people suicide every game.
Players are massively burnt-out due to either extremely unfun Killers, maps or perks. When a good percentage of the playerbase despises 45% of the roster, there's a HUGE issue.
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Im sorry friend, but I dont have all the answers that this game needs. Also just human you know.
For me personally it's a community thing. If we all try to be better and accept some killer designs for what they are, we can all enjoy the game a bit more. This doesn't change the fact, that some killers are unfun to go against. My mentality is: I pressed "play" so I play. No matter what comes. I don't dodge lobbies with the exception of some ttv people because I dislike being content.
Throughout this mentality I even found fun in playing against Legion, Artist, Wraith and even Knight. A couple of weeks ago I had a 3gen knight, which successfully held my soloq team hostage for 45 minutes. We all stayed in the match and did a lot of funny and dumb stuff. It was hilarious. After we died because the Knight decided to go away from his precious we wrote in end game chat, that we wanted the whole hour experience.
If we start thinking less entitled and change our mentality to be more open for some types of gameplay, we can all enjoy the game more.
Does that mean, that the game is fine and not problematic at all? No. Definitely not. There are killers, perks, mechanics and maps that need changing to offer a more enjoyable experience.
Maybe people should focus more on what makes their games fun and less at what makes them unfun.
Sadly you know as good as I do, that this will probably never be the case.
If you have a better suggestion, feel free to tell me. I just don't think, making a good amount of people playing against 4 bits all the time is the correct way. It's a way that leads to many people quitting.
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I'd rather have a bot than 3vs1 because someone queued up and leaves almost right away.
Getting rid of the DC penalty would be fine with me. Them getting no BP and losing their items is enough. I'm so tired of every match being 3vs1 when I bring cakes because x reason. Then the killer gets my cake reward and I sit there looking and feeling like a fool.
I have over 4K cakes now and I refuse to bring them because of this.
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Devs should be looking at positive reinforcement, punishing only drives players further away from the game
Also, if I'm getting griefed by a random teammate I'm 100% DCing
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