Does anyone else feel that survivors objective speed is simply broken?
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I think it is hard to say killers shouldn't bring 3-4 slowdown perks with the current state of things. I mean, I don't do it, but I understand why some people do.
It is all connected. The moment you cannot expect survivors to do anything other than gens, then you cannot expect killers to bring anything other than slowdown. Several aspects of the game suffered tremendously with unnecessary changes, which happens way too often, and it is impacting both sides.
This must be fixed.
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The "current state of things" is exacerbated by bringing 3-4 slowdown perks at best, it is not helped or diminished. At worst, bringing 3-4 slowdown perks creates the "current state of things", as you and others have put it.
People think that generators fly and it's completely outside their control, therefore they must need to stack the tools that make generators go slower, but that's just not true. There are diminishing returns on your slowdown perks, for one- they all require actually progressing your objective before they do much and if you don't have anything to make that progression easier, you aren't going to be helped by your slowdown perks because they aren't even being activated that frequently.
It would be better - and with a few narrow exceptions for strips of time where certain perks were wildly overtuned, has always been better - to bring a balanced build that helps you in any areas you might be struggling with, or just to give you varied value to begin with. Info and chase perks are nigh essential, they are not strictly weaker than slowdown and using them alongside specific slowdown perks that actually synergise well is the right call if you feel that generators are being completed too quickly.
The actual current state of the game really isn't that bad once you understand this. A few things could use some changes, but the objective speeds are pretty okay as long as you understand how you get slowdown as killer without relying on four disconnected perks that don't even work that way.
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Thank goodness someone said this. I would say 70% of games where two or three gens pop early on snowball in the killers favour at 2/1 gens..
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I think it is a consequence, actually. I definitely agree with the importance of varied builds, but I understand why many players aren't doing it. The way I see it, it is just a natural response.
As for the current state of the game... well, I will make it clear that I am biased. I have disagreed with 99% of every change implemented into this game since mid-2019. However, I really cannot see anything positive with no one healing, stacked slowdown and the endless camping and tunnel that I'm seeing.
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Idk bro, are survivors not supposed to get gens done? Devs design the game with a 40% escape ratio, which means survivors are supposed to reach endgame quite often, if not most of the times. And unlike what a lot of people tend to think, endgame does not mean that the killer lost. A lot of snowball can happen in this part of the game and games could turn around, and it's when killer is at its strongest. So losing a few gens is normal? Real pressure comes when one survivor is incapable of doing gens, one is going to save and ur chasing one of the remaining ones, then things slow down quite a lot
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It's definitely not a consequence. People have run 3-4 slowdowns for at least as long as I've been playing the game, and with the exception of post-6.1 Eruption and the nasty Call of Brine/Overcharge 3-gen meta, it's always been weaker than having an actually varied build.
While I think it's fair to say nobody healing and stacked slowdown isn't the most fun setup, it's not happening (where it even is happening, btw, I've not personally seen much of this supposed never-heal meta in my games) because of the changes made to the game recently, or even close to recently. Remember, right now, healing perks are very strong and stacking slowdown is an active detriment in a lot of cases. Even if those things weren't the case before (which they were), it's pretty clear these things aren't happening because something was changed.
These things don't happen because of supposedly bad changes made to the game. They happen largely because people refuse to adjust their setup or strategy even when it becomes heavily apparent it's not working. People run 3-4 slowdowns because they think it'll be easier, then complain about gen speeds when they lose games because of it. People don't heal because they refuse to acknowledge the strength of altruistic healing and associated perks, then blame it on the two self-healing tools that were nerfed.
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Except we have data that shows that this statement isn't true. In the most oppressive gen slow down meta ever, killers tunneled even more.
The root problem is that both sides have slowly optimized their play styles to achieve the goal as efficiently as possible. No matter how fast the generators progress, tunneling 1 person out is THE most effective way for a killer to secure a victory. As long as that remains true killers will continue to do it and they should, unapologetically. It is not up to the killers to play fair. It is required by BHVR to ensure that the game is fun when killers play efficiently. Tunnelling, camping, and slugging must be made less fun while still giving killers tools to enjoy and succeed in the match.
The same goes for survivors, working on generators is the way they achieve "victory". So gradually, the player base has learned to strip away all the inefficiencies. Survivors split up more often. A Side note, it's hilarious, they nerfed prove thyself. This perk actually encouraged survivors to behave less efficiently which actually helped killers. Now it's actually obvious that it's terrible so survivors just split up.
If looping a killer well was possible for the vast majority and lead to more survivor escapes, more survivors would participate in that activity. Since it doesn't lead to escapes very often for most people, they do it less and less. The more oppressive killers get in chase, the more stealth and gen efficiency will be the only strategies employed by the opponents they face.
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I dont see a problem with 2 gens poping when i get my first down, because usually, there are 3 gens left to be done. And in a lot of my matches, they dont get done. The first down takes that long because the survivor has a lot of ressources at hand, but they are mostly one-time use and then gone. Thus, the next chase is not only shorter, also only one guy can be on a gen because one has to unhook (because if you dont, soon will be 2 surviors on hooks).
I know that it feels very pressured if 2 gens pop that fast, but thats why they need to do 5.
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BHVR should do an event that brings back all the old mechanics for a couple days so people can feel grateful and have some perspective. old gens, old med kits, old boons. complaints would evaporate after the event was over.
Heck, bring back the real nostalgia. Original BNP, old DH and DS. It's seemingly so easy to lose track of how good you have it
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I agree it alway about the survivors fun but the killer should have fun too.
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because these side objectives are uninteractive and take away killers' ways of pressuring survivors and / or make the main way of pressuring less effective.
the issue with the whole side objectives thing is that you can't add a tool like that into killer basekit, it has to be a part of most killers' powers, but not all of them and that would take way too long to implement.
best examples of secondary objectives are something like flame turrets or EMPs that make survivors leave gens or face killer at their peak strength while killer can generate progressively more pressure through these seemingly detrimental things to them by playing more and more efficiently.
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Not sure what game you’re playing but steath is irrelevant. Good survivors are aggressive and will try to get you to chase in very unfavorable areas for killer. If there are too many spawns like that on the map, the game is over before it begins.
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I think I'd rather have basekit deadlock, but corrupt intervention would certainly help.
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The last few years the average skill level of players seems to be "Hold W and only Hold W" and it's dropped skillwise. When i play Killer i get a bunch of free down's because no one seems to look back much so i cut them off or they Hold W to the point i get a bunch of key pallets early on. When i play SoloQ i notice these same Survivors will drop pallets and run patting themselves on the back for a good 1st chase than lose mid to late game because they mess up so much early game. With killer's i see them over commit to a chase without getting much rewards to it. I see them complain about gen rushes in the end game chat, but in game i see them tunnel vision a single person and will literally pass a gen that's like 80% without blinking. Killer's suffer because they either tunnel people out or attempt to 1v1 a single person and get no pressure on gen's. Surv's seem to drop key pallets and die late game because they wont loop and instead waste pallet's early on. Both sides makes classic mistakes of brand new player's than complain about X perk or X reason despite being able to counter what happened. Least that's what i've seen in the last few month's. This does not mean every player does it, but more commonly than not this is the actions and behaviors i see anymore.
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Boons could never have worked like hexes, the only similarity that they have is that they are tied to totems, in every other possible way, boons are significantly weaker than practically all hexes.
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That wouldn't work the way you think.
Because such event would be a blast for people like me, who prefer the way things were in the past, while the people who are complaining would continue to complain regardless.
It is the way it is.
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2 gens popping by the time you're at first hook is average at mid to high MMR. Don't know how people still don't realize you can't change that. On average, 1 person being chased, 3 doing 2 gens is GOING TO HAPPEN. Do you just want them to do nothing? The balance is pretty fair, even with the slowdown on Gen Speed, a while back. If they're faster than usual, that's probably 2 cooperating Survs running Gen jockey or you aren't paying enough attention to the gens and probably pursuing chases WAY too intently.
What do you want, survs to NOT do objectives while all Killers other than myself are being sweatlords and hard-tunneling two people straight out of the game(oftentimes at 4 or 3 gens left), lately? That is liteeqlly NO JOKE: Killers atm are hard tunneling at the beginning of the match, so ######### yeah I'm gonna bust objectives if the Killer is being a sweaty edgelord. Sorry, not sorry, but It goes both ways. Maybe try Discordance, breaking off of chases to check gens after getting a hit on someone to practice more Generator awareness. But honestly, If you have to oversaturate yourself in Gen perks rather than just practicing gen/area control to get a 4K, it's not like it's skill. It's sad to see Killers run more than 2 Gen perks because their desperation and sweatiness on an entirely non-competitive game/match is shameful and laughable.
Just have fun and accept the balance, the match results not needing to ALWAYS be a 4K, and the simple fact that BHVR won't be changing this anytime soon, nor balancing it as often as any of us would like. You don't need a 4K to be happy and if you do, should probably play something else cuz you'll drive yourself insane and negatively impact your mental health when you get stomped out by a 12K Hr SWF who torments and trolls you all game. From one Killer main to the other, just pump the brakes and whip a U-Turn from competitive mentality in DBD. This game is non-competitive(unless you're in a tournament) and you should NOT look at it that way; you don't have to flex your Otz/Tru3 loadout you copy/pasted from YT and you don't have to care to be THAT good at this game when a full-on communicative SWF will ALWAYS reign Supreme in this game. Just have fun, and GGNext.
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It's true the top 3% of survivors don't play that way, but you'll notice I never claimed that they did.
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I’m not interested in how joeblow who plays once a week plays the game. If we aren’t assuming high level play, then this is a pointless conversation. My grandma could 4k with Trapper at low ranks. It doesn’t show an accurate picture of balance.
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It’s more accurate than balancing around the uppercrest of MMR. Most players are your grandmother, not Otzdarva.
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And that’s an issue with the playerbase, not game balance. A mediocre player should get stomped by an experienced player 10/10 times.
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Consider8ng they can just be rebooned, I'd say it makes sense they are weaker. Hexes are gone permanently when destroyed unless ANOTHER perk on top of that is used, but then even after that they can be permanently gone.
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what you got base kit stbfl, shorter run distance and brutal strength thats 3 base things.
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Not really. There isn’t a single game where the best players outnumber casuals. And it will never be true.
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And yet, most games balance around top end players. It’s mostly this delusional community that says otherwise.
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Well. The last time I know about top players that you desperately to balance around have over 1500 win rate on Blight.
If they can balance to make that Blight to have 60% kill rate instead of 100%…
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I'd reckon that player's winstreak is balanced out by the rest of the blight players' performance.
Or are we allowed to cite some 4 top survivors on comms for the average performance of all survovors?
Edit: It's worth noting, concerning killrates etc, that in all results except a 4k theres still a survivor escaping/winning. Even a 25% escape rate means on average theres a survivor win in every trial.
You should know better. Now dismiss me with some unrelated sketch of a smug survivor.
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He has that streak because most pubs are bad players. The fact is, experienced players shouldn’t have to put up with awful high level gameplay because people refuse to learn. Like if you are that lazy, go play a mobile game.
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I've only been playing the last few years but you are spot on. People don't really know how to play the game they have sunk thousands of hours into.
Even content creators I love endorse the thought of "I need to be 3-6k hours before I am good"
LIke no, watch some guides and try to get better through absorption of information and playing at the same time. If people can't do that, then I have 0 idea what they want.
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If high MMR survivors “arent that good” to you so that Blight can have a huge win streak. Then why people complain when they’re playing against “arent that good” survivors?
If a Blight of 5 stack 4 slowdown, strong addon and tunneling; beating teams of 5 or even 6…eventually they will get beaten by teams of 9. That is when killers have a misconcept of “the game should be balanced around high MMR”, How can such a Blight loadout that strong be struggled to have 2K?
While infact, their skill is never be there. Not about the balance
Thanks to lobby dodging and thats more on killers than MMR itself.
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Like Death Garden? 💅🏾
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With our current mmr which priotizes "speed" over "fairness", can you be sure that all survivors in that winstreak are that player's level too?
In a normal mmr, If a blight of 5 keeps beating survivors of 5-6, they shouldnt be matched against a team of 9 unless theyre 7-9 too by that moment; Which shouldve happened bybeating those 5-6's.
And survivors of 9 beating a killer of 9 seems normal to me.
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Like Overwatch, Mortal Kombat, or Street Fighter. You know, games that are far more successful than DBD.
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And of those three which is asymmetrical? Like DBD.
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Frankly, there aren’t enough asym games to compare. The same principles apply regardless if a game is asym or not. Things that affect high level play don’t matter that much for low levels, since most players lack basic game knowledge.
Decisive strike is a perfect example: it doesn’t matter how long the stun is because the average person isn’t good enough to really exploit it and run the killer. The same goes for killer: the average killer lost games even with the strong gen regression durimg 6.1. because they lack macro and tile knowledge of the game. Balancing for a casual base doesn’t solve problems for most people, and only makes high level play miserable.
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the CoH totem effectively gave everyone on the team an infinite purple medkit at the cost of 16-20 seconds of one survivors time. Even if it didn’t have the 100% healing speed increase it had when it released, it would still be broken. Even infinite brown med kits for the whole team is broken as all hell.
The fact that it made it through PTB and sat in the game for so long is disappointing on Behaviour’s part.
The original CoH that released with Mikaela was so broken, you could compare it to cheat codes that you paid for. Aka pay to win.
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No, I mean Blight of 5 as a skill of 5, not the MMR. If stacked with 4 slowdown, strong addon, tunneling. They can easily win against teams with skill of 5-6 or even 7 (assume survivors dont use meta at all). As keep winning over and over, that Blight can reach to MMR of 8 (where their skill should not be), to play against teams of 8 (or teams of 6-7 with metas)
Skill takes a fraction in MMR climbing, stacking meta makes players climb up on MMR where they should not be. A Blight is struggle hard in MMR 8 doesnt mean that Blight has skill of 8 and the game being survivors' sided at high MMR, that Blight already won too much and over climbing their MMR, and there will be players that put them back in place, that works for both sides.
I die at 3 Gens, Im a high MMR survivor and struggle in chase, yelling "the game is killer sided at high MMR, I and other randoms are struggle to make 3 escapes"
You see how stupid that is?
My problem is about average killers thinking they're at high MMR being struggled against better players and want the game "should be balanced around High MMR".
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I had way more fun with CoH before, healing and doing other stuff. Now it's run We'll make it, be a portable CoH, heal up people asap, and gen gen gen gen.
Oh and then get tunneled/stalked outside game. Almost every match.
Fun. It's just like irl now with the uncalled for sexual harassment. Just what I wanted from a game, getting stalked. (That's a different story...)
Luckily I played before the game changed and all the med kits were homenogized. I just bring medkits with shots only now, I've all my mains p100 so I've plenty of shots. If not, it's commodus tool box with both addons, and BTL. What else is there to do? Zzz. Boooooring.
Heh, I miss running over to CoH to heal, games felt so much more fun with more stuff to do. Now every game is the same, one side 100% stomps the other. I've never had any of the close clutch games I had before that gave me an adrenaline rush. It's just...oh...goodie. More of the same!
All my friends quit after the healing nerf and never came back. New ones don't stay. 🤷 I agree, killers wanted this. I remember all the posts complaining about CoH. LOL now they complain about gen times and distortion. Like why.
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I mean, that's just kinda how asymmetrical games work. Killer is always a lot harder to play, win or lose, this doesn't necessarily mean he'll always lean towards one side of always winning or always losing. Don't be too frustrated when the first or second gen pops early, that's always going to happen. Also, I don't know why you think of a gen popping as being an instant 20% progress when gens literally have a progress bar lol.
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they do. momo's blight streak that is 1500 wins is living proof that a mediocre player will get stomped 10/10 times by experienced player. The result is 100% win-rate.
He has that streak because most pubs are bad players. The fact is, experienced players shouldn’t have to put up with awful high level gameplay because people refuse to learn. Like if you are that lazy, go play a mobile game.
you have to change wording from most pub to all pub are bad players because every single pub lost. Explain what is "awful high level play" for experienced players.
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You don’t need a lot to make the comparison—just one. I can think of four off the top of my head.
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TCM’s balance is significantly better than DBD, even with the P2W victim that was released. It’s probably skewed towards victim at the absolute highest level of play, but if you know what you are doing you can dominate. DBD is balanced to allow lousy players to beat good players.
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Playing any killer except blight/nurse against competent survivors is hell and not fun. I’ll use one of my mains, deathslinger as an example.
The match loads in and, depending on spawns, I’m probably losing a gen slightly before or after my first down. That alone can hurt my chances if it was part of a 3 gen (which encourages boring killer gameplay) and puts pressure on killer within the first two minutes. Then, when I’m approaching a gen/survivors, they can use DS’s terror radius to pre run and completely deny any chance of a shot. If it’s an indoor map or a map with high walls or clutter (most maps btw) then I’m lucky to have the opportunity to make 5-6 shots in a match.
This illustrates the problem with most killers. It’s not like the survivors dodged shots or juked the killer: they straight up denied any chance of skill expression just by existing. High level killers have almost no agency and depend on survivors playing poorly.
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Yes the games were far more enjoyable and fun back then. Killers right now just play like #####.
There are only gens and getting tunneled. Fun hahaha!
It‘s sad that behavior decides to please comp players and make the game miserable for everyone else.
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In my opinion, current deathslinger is a terrible killer for all reasons you listed. What you described in your paragraph is precisely my thoughts on dbd on the global problem with most killers at high-level.
those two problems can summarized in two categories
1) Comeback factor/Chase efficacy: Survivor Gen pressure.
2) Pre-running
I do not want elaborate much more then what you talk about but the speed that survivor do generator at when killer is successful at the chase is oppressive at high-level for killer. It is like you barely notice any game-delay as killer despite all your chases ending as quickly as they could have. there is just simply no game-delay in killer base-kit and being forced to use game-delay perks, most of which are weaker is stifling killer perk variety and creativity. The other problem as you talk about is pre-running where your chases are not long but strength of pre-shift w away from generators before the chase means that your chases are in fact long because it took too long to get into the chase. If the entire is yoyoing generators effectively, there is no good chases that is time efficient for the killer to take. As you describe, you lose passively for survivors existing. Deathslinger being 4.4 makes him very vulnerable to such a strategy. I agree with your opinion that these two aspects for high-level killer are not fun.
knowing what the problem is half the challenge but coming up with a good solution is more difficult.
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The solution is to remove clutter and broken tiles. Deathslinger is also one of many examples of a botched killer change. All of the weaknesses we talked about existed back when DS could insta scope and had a small terror radius. He was never a great killer. The nerfs made it even harder for DS to engage in a meaningful chase since he can’t sneak up anymore and the increased aiming time puts control of the chase in the survivors’ hands. He is a perfect example of the game being balanced around bad survivor play.
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I agree completely. I did not rate him even before his nerfs as powerful killer but he was admittedly a fun killer to play. Now I just find him unfun to play for exact reasons you describe. pre-running and ADS change putting all control into survivor's hands.
He is only ranged killer to not have lullaby, so on technical level, he can still use M&A to reduce his tr to 24 which was his old TR. this does not allow you to m1 sneak up on people but you can still fire in most cases. Considering that you are having games where you get 5-6 shots entire game, it might be worth considering. In my opinion though, you'll lose to strong survivors regardless for what you select on him. over-balanced killer.
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The problem with CoH is that it destroyed late game(not end game). The killer simply can't walk themselves over to the boon to snuff even blight when they only have a half of the map to defend or god forbid broken boon spots like top of rpd west or top of storehouse. A different objective isn't a full team resetting in 24 seconds on the other side of the map.
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"Killers" wanted this meta. Literally who? We asked for reasonable COH nerfs which did happen, but then they went back and hit it again with a nerf because boons are a badly mechanic in general. Medkits needed some kind of nerf it would have been fine to just nerf charges slightly, heal speed (mostly green medkit self heal speed), addons, or efficiency yet they hit it with a wide range of nerfs. Chase perks are fine, just not when they're uninteresting haste bonuses for getting hit or free hits for losing gens.
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You just described killers asking for literally every change that led to this meta.
And chase perks like MfT and dead hard's *second* nerf absolutely fall into the chase perk category. Let's not pretend that woo, buckle up, and ftp aren't also on the list of complaints. It's just that woo isn't on the road map, and bu/ftp are next on the chopping block.
This is almost exactly the meta killers asked for, even if it's not the one they *wanted*. The only thing that people want differently is to revert the nerfs to the gen kick meta perks and it would basically be the perfect, unlosable game for the average forum killer.
Edit: spelling
Post edited by AmpersandUnderscore on3
