The second iteration of 2v8 is now LIVE - find out more information here: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/480-2v8-developer-update

The only change Skull Merchant needed was reload drones from lockers. The rework is horrible

2»

Comments

  • UndeddJester
    UndeddJester Member Posts: 3,317
    edited December 2023

    How is it exactly different from Clown?

    The thing with Clown is he has limited bottles, his clouds last a limited time, and he has to be careful with placements to ensure he gets the 10% boost vs. the Survivors 15% Hindered. If he misthrows either he doesn't benefit, and can even help the survivor out by boosting them.

    Skull Merchant doesn't have to worry about uptime or reloading, she doesn't have to be accurate with her placement, she gets her speed passively while still just zoning the survivor at the loop, while also getting the benefit able to see exactly where they are at all times. She even gets to build bloodlust while zoning, which Clown does not. Either the survivor doesn't leave, where they will eventually get the Hindered effect vs. her haste, which is pretty much a guaranteed down unless Skully horribly misplays, or they leave, which she has perfect knowledge on and either intercepts, or simply repeat at the next loop.

    Clown can make mistakes at loops and be outplayed, it's tough, but it can happen. It is REALLY hard to mess up completely as Skull Merchant.

    Thing is there is not really reason for it.

    Do you know how fast is Blight? Spirit? Wraith? Perks on both sides?

    You may have noticed I'm not especially trying to nerf Skull Merchant. I'm trying to remove her more annoying effects that makes everyone just shut down vs. her. This 5% boost when a Survivor is trapped is a buff, but importantly, it's consistent.

    You're right, there won't be more than 2 scans most of the time, but the point here is to make the survivor being chased the decider for how much speed she gets. If someone gets scanned cross map, for the most part it shouldn't apply additonal pressure to the person she is currently chasing, because the person she is chasing is likely to pick up a scan too. If someone gets claw trapped cross map... they really screwed up, but they obviously become a juicier target for SM vs. A healthy survivor at a loop.

    My point here is that trying to watch where Skull Merchant is and what she is doing for mind games, trying to watch where the drone is facing (especially in stealth mode), and trying to watch the HUD, and then trying to adjust for her speed at loops is a lot to ask of a survivor to process at any moment. A claw trapped survivor is something that is not hard to notice on the HUD, even in your periphery, and making it consistent, means survivors can adjust their timings and get a feel for playing vs. her.

    Do you realize Shock would be way stronger? How the hell is that better for survivors?

    Again, I'm not high elo, but in my experience against Doctor, you can anticipate a shock and throw a pallet early, or fake towards/take vaulting pallet/windows for mind games as the shock hits you. If you succeed at that mind game, you can make distance, but if you misplay it you get boned.

    Vs. Hindered, just like Clown, even if you succed at the mind game, you still get Hindered, and they catch up, you're still in a dire situation because you can't make any distance, and again, unlike Clown, Skully doesn't ever have to slow and reload, she just bolts after you.

    Do tell how a shock is so much stronger than Hindered? Cause I see the opposite in my games. A good Clown is harder to face at loops than a good Doctor, that's why Doctor has additonal slowdown and detection screams in his kit via madness and static blast, while Clown literally holds loops and that is it.

  • VomitMommy
    VomitMommy Member Posts: 2,257

    The thing with Clown is he has limited bottles, his clouds last a limited time, and he has to be careful with placements to ensure he gets the 10% boost vs. the Survivors 15% Hindered.

    It doesn't really matter for specific chase tho, it's enough to get hit.

    Clown is able to get hit on shack even if pallet is up, no need for big mind games.

    So basically even tho her speed and hindered are weaker, it's supposed to bigger issue just because it's easier to use?

    That seems balanced to me, it's not as difficult to use, so it is weaker...


    you can anticipate a shock and throw a pallet early

    But skull merchant wouldn't need to actually use the shock, right? I can just keep running around the loop, getting bloodlust, while you can't vault the pallet. If you vault, you get tagged and can't vault back.

    This would be so annoying to deal with it.

    Hindered doesn't stop you from vaulting. Predropping currently works quite well against Skull merchant, same as Clown. It wouldn't really work with shocking.

    It would become way more oppressive for chased survivor.

  • UndeddJester
    UndeddJester Member Posts: 3,317
    edited December 2023

    So basically even tho her speed and hindered are weaker, it's supposed to bigger issue just because it's easier to use?

    That seems balanced to me, it's not as difficult to use, so it is weaker...

    Thing is though, its not weaker. Most Clowns don't stack up yellow bottle and purples at majority of loops. 15% Hindered is enough most of the time.

    10% Hindered and a 3% speed boost for all intents and purposes is effectively the same thing. You have the point that SM can't apply her speed swing as easily as Clown, but again, she can keep getting her speed boost, her Hindered, her killer instinct and everything, without needing to aim anything, all while building bloodlust, with no downtime and no reload, which Clown can not.

    But skull merchant wouldn't need to actually use the shock, right? I can just keep running around the loop, getting bloodlust, while you can't vault the pallet. If you vault, you get tagged and can't vault back.

    This would be so annoying to deal with

    I still don't get you here, because in all scenarios the same problems exist for Hinder but are almost always worse. We don't need a Doctor level 2.5s action block shock, that number can be fiddled with to meet something reasonable, but a Hindered effect will always be an issue unless you want to make it really short too?

    For the shock, against a weak loop, yes the shock has this problem she can just keep running after you until you get shocked, but unless she accounts for when the shock hits you and/or changes drone rotation accordingly, you can still threaten vaults before your scan. You can even bait a less optimal vault just before the shock to get a swing, you juke the hit and and leave. The problem is much less against a strong loop, cause when you get to the pallet from out of sight of the scan, you can throw/vault before your shock scan, and when she breaks the pallet, she loses bloodlust, and you get the distance while she breaks. The point is, a shock only hurts you when you want to throw a pallet or vault...

    However with the Hinder, both strong and weak loops are worse, cause on a weak loop she does the same thing as before... but now whether you vault or not she just doesn't break and catches you regardless, the hinder makes it so any attempt to leave is completely pointless, so you must leave before hand. At a strong loop, you can throw like before, only this time you don't care about when you get scanned, cause the Hinder is gonna hit you anyway. Even if she breaks and loses bloodlust, you still don't make distance while she breaks cause you have the Hinder vs. Her speed boost. Hinder hurts you no matter what you're doing.

    I genuinely can't think of a scenario where I'd prefer having my ankles broken, vs. say a 1.5 action block from a shock.


    Edit: What's also nice about the shock is it behooves Skull Merchant to use her radar to change the beam direction at the right time for the shock to allow her to convert to a hit. This means she isn't building bloodlust cause she is using her power... as opposed to Hinder where she doesn't really need to care when it hits the survivor, as long as it hits.

    As an aside... does anyone know why Skull Merchant gets Killer instinct when a claw trapped survivor is scanned? I never understood that... she literally has a radar for this exact purpose... why even use the radar when Killer Instinct does the same thing better?

    Have a harsher alert beep and colour the blip orange or something would be my choice.

    Post edited by UndeddJester on
  • VomitMommy
    VomitMommy Member Posts: 2,257

    15% Hindered is enough most of the time.

    of course it is weaker. Skull merchant usually has only 3% movement speed bonus and even if you tried your best (as survivor) you are not able to get hindered under 9 seconds (without addons), but in reality it's going to be way longer.

    even if you get it there is 13% difference, which is still less than 15% Clown has (just from Hindered). So even if it works out, values are lower and it's way more difficult (time consuming) to get it on survivors. Hindered for Skull merchant is way more difficult to get on survivors than Clown's bottle... Basically it's up to a survivor if you even manage it in whole chase.

    without needing to aim anything, all while building bloodlust, with no downtime and no reload, which Clown can not.

    She has bloodlust only if she got Drone there before, which is still time consuming, because she had to walk there.

    And you can't really deny neither slow, or speed boost from Clown. You can deny it from Skull merchant with crouching / standing still next to pallet and as I said before, her slow is just way more time consuming for Skull merchant. In most chases I won't even get to it.

    Hindered effect will always be an issue unless you want to make it really short too?

    It doesn't stop your from vaulting a pallet, or window. If Hindered was an issue, wouldn't Clown be one of top tier killers? Well, he is not, because predropping pallets is simply very effective. It works exactly same against Skull merchant.

    Right now, if you are healthy, you hold W, if you are injured, you can predrop pallets (stay in loop). If tag would actually Shock you, even if you are injured, your only option would be to hold W. Does that sound fun to you?

    1.5 action block from a shock.

    That's the issue. You have 3 seconds immunity when you get tagged. So if you make that shock value too low, it's basically useless. If it is high, it's way more oppresive than Hindered can ever be.

    This means she isn't building bloodlust cause she is using her power

    Are you sure it removes Bloodlust? I usually use it before hand on certain loops, so I actually don't know.


    Her speed boost / Hindered are simply not that oppresive in my opinion. So I wouldn't change that.

    What other issues are there supposed to be:

    Too many status effects?

    You can remove broken on Claw trap and replace with always Mending. Claw trap would always have some effect, so it wouldn't be confusing for new players and one less status effect.

    Disarming drones?

    You could make a trade and just make it disarm permanently, but display disarmed drone by aura better that it happened. So basically survivors can easily get rid of her drones, but Skull merchant gets the information and can recall it, which would be more in line with how Hag / Trapper works. If she wants to put be back, she needs to walk there and deploy it.

  • DrDucky
    DrDucky Member Posts: 675

    Fair enough, I am sure you enjoy her but there are many people who do not.

    I actually tried her for the first time about a month ago with an open mind and I was just so bored. It just felt like the play was always to drop a drone at a loop and slowly build up lock on until they get hit or leave the loop and it was just a rinse repeat of boring gameplay for both sides without any skill expression. Like what can I do as a killer to impose my skill in anyway when I am just putting up drones? I do wanna try a perma stealth build with her, I feel like that might actually make her fun.

  • VomitMommy
    VomitMommy Member Posts: 2,257

    I play her kinda like Wraith, mainly for hit&run.

    She is really good for surprise hits and it's fun to give survivors heart attack.


    Even for chase merchant I prefered old version to be honest. Current version except stealth is just worse at everything.

    If players don't like to play her, I don't think it's an issue. There is not a killer that will be good for everyone.

    When she is not enjoyable to play against, that can be issue for changes, but not for straight nerfs.


    I don't really get why she is hated so much tho. I still believe it's just that "first feeling" from chess merchant.

    There is nothing really unique about her, she is not best at anything. She just has lot of small things, which can be confusing for new players.

    She used to be best killer at defending. Either gens, or totems. That's gone.

    She used to be best at information gathering. Well, Claw trap is mostly chase only thing now, so that value dropped hard.

    Stealth was below average, so that improved....

    I consider her chase better before than now to be honest.

    Even if she has two stacks (somehow) of haste and hindered (which takes a long time to get) it's same as Clown's bottle...

    I just don't understand why people hate her so much.

    Hold W? Artist, Knight, Trapper, Dredge

    Predropping pallets? Oni, Clown, Pinhead, Freddy, Pig


    If people want to use excuse of too many status effects, then I will gladly remove broken... Just make it always mending as Legion. Fixed

  • Moman624
    Moman624 Member Posts: 106

    The skull Merchant never needed anything, if not she need a buff with an extra 2 drones. The only change that needed to happen is the 3 gen update, now she should be reverted