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Incentivizing spreading hooks would be a good step forward.
From the killer perspective:
When someone asks me as to why I don't tunnel often and care about 4k's, I tend to scramble for a reason. Not reasons, just a singular reason. I like to take the approach of playing how I'd like to be played against but I don't do it for fun or to challenge myself, I find myself getting irritated more often and get punished for it. All the forms of toxicity you could experience on DBD is what I've experienced playing 'fairly' and it's such a demotivator. I recently did a comparison of playing fairly and just playing like most killers I experience as a survivor and I got more BP from that than the way I usually play. I found I experienced way less irritation, I was experiencing far easier games, and I didn't even receive any insults in the endgame chat because that's how normalized such a playstyle is. This helped me realize that playing fairly promotes more 'fun' for the survivor side at the cost of my sanity. There's only consequences to playing fairly. Sometimes I don't even get a simple thank you for giving the last person hatch.
I do tunnel sometimes, because otherwise I'd get steamrolled, and it creates a ton of pressure which only helps ease my games - something hooking others fails to do. It's a valid strategy for sure, but it shouldn't feel so necessary since spreading hooks should be more rewarding for making the game more fun for both sides. I enjoy facing different playstyles that evolve to counter mine and I dislike tunneling, It's just stale and I feel bad for the survivor most of the time.
From a survivor perspective:
It sucks to face all the time. Plain and simple. With how awful matchmaking is, my solo queue teams cannot handle the pressure and they crack. For them to loop for more than thirty seconds would be a miracle. I try my best to help, but body-blocking can sometimes be more detrimental than helpful and there's only so much times you can successfuly flashbang/flashlight/pallet save them. With tunneling comes camping. Killers will proximity camp and wait for the unhook in order to tunnel to create the pressure. Tunneling and camping are hot topics currently with how ineffective the facecamping meter is (progresses too slowly and killers can camp super close for a while). A change to incentivize spreading hooks would knock two birds with one stone if approached correctly and cause a win-win situation. There's no fun to be found in tunneling and camping.
When I'm told to run anti-tunneling perks, I kind of get dumbfounded. Decisive Strike is a waste of a perk slot. Three seconds of a stun equates to one Nurse blink and you're back on hook. You can't even get to a loop most of the time with such a short stun for someone purposefully tunneling you. Dead Hard is a one-time use perk (if a killer falls for it the second time then that's just their fault) but it is decent. The only downside is that if you get hit immediately off the hook, you can't even use it. What's tunneling without camping, am I right? Same goes for Off the Record. We do not have the tools to even inconvenience tunneling properly if the killer knows what they're doing. They don't even wait out the ten seconds, they immediately hit so you cannot get use out of Dead Hard thanks to the wounded effect.
Some thoughts:
I don't know how this could be achieved optimally because there's many options out there. You could lower BP gains from tunneling, provide slower gen speeds if you hooked each survivor once before one was sacrificed, make the game focus more on chases and hooks instead of kills, etc. I don't believe that waiting so long for a Decisive Strike rework will fix the underlying issue for both sides.
Tunneling and camping have been the sole reason for a vast majority of killer winstreaks. I don't understand how the numbers are so high, it either proves how tragically bad matchmaking is or the effectiveness of this strategy. Nevertheless, it should not be possible to win that many times consecutively. No game, with proper matchmaking, has such high winstreaks like Dead by Daylight does. I severely doubt neither the survivors or killers had any sort of fun.
Kills are way too rewarding compared to hooks. Killers literally slug the second last person until they BLEED OUT (four minute timer) just to have a chance to find the last person or hope you fall into a silly ambush almost every single time. Since people tunnel for kills, I wouldn't put it past them to do that all the time.
Perks promoting anti-tunneling for killers won't be used if tunneling is as effective as it currently is.
Tunneling the weakest link out shouldn'tbe as justified as it is. They also deserve to have an engaging experience and not an easy 3v1 opportunity for killers to obtain effortlessly.
I would add more but I'm too tired as of late, I hope everyone reading understands what I mean. I don't see how this wouldn't be a win-win situation for both sides.
Comments
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Problem is you can incentivize spreading hooks as much as possible and you'll still get killers who tunnel someone out just so they can get the 4k, for reasons anywhere between they desperately want the wins or they're trying to adept.
If, somehow, BHVR magically made a mechanic to fully stop tunneling then something would need to be done about certain loops and tiles, as well as really busted perk combinations and SWF coordination and I don't see those happening any time soon.
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It'll be inconvenient for them to tunnel if the right actions are taken place to prevent it. There would no longer be arguments about needing to tunnel because by tunneling they are losing the proposed benefits of spreading hooks which would help them. People obviously will still tunnel, but it'll help others stray from it and finally reward spreading hooks.
I'm all for removing tunneling and compensating with stuff you've proposed, but I think taking baby steps is the way to go.
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Give BP effect of BBQ and WGLF basekit. That would help and probably make both sides happy.
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Such a shame they removed the BP effects. I think that it won't make a noticeable change however since tunneling was still rather prominent at the time those bonuses existed. Killers won't really use BBQ if tunneling is working out so well and feels necessary sometimes. We're Gonna Live Forever isn't too useful for solo queue when survivors can't call out if they're getting slugged or not. Haven't seen the perk in ages, not even amongst SWFs.
I feel like it's too much of a complicated issue, due to how it intertwines with both roles, to just be solved by perk adjustments. I'm not holding my breath for the Decisive Srike rework either, kind of lost hope already.
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People who want to tunnel from start are not going to use it, you won't fix it.
But many players go for tunneling when they feel pressured, not from start. Getting 4 stacks of BBQ was basically main priority for many players, from what I remember there was way less tunneling during BBQ/pop/ruin. Pop and Ruin forced you to leave hooked survivors to be effective unless gen was right next to it... and BBQ made killers greedy and rather threw game just to get it.
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Many killers tunnel at five generators from my experience. Since Chucky was added, it's felt like it's been non-stop. It's why I took a break because the gameplay was so stale. What you explained is definitely correct, but it's not like everyone ran it at the time, mostly Billy players. With how popular anti-aura builds are currently (especially Distortion), I fear a change like that would only promote more anti-aura builds and this would make the perk obsolete and just a extra BP perk.
We're Gonna Live Forever is also not going to affect much.
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We're Gonna Live Forever is also not going to affect much.
That's just so it's fair and both sides have this system.
You see way more tunneling then you used to, or I remember it wrong... Issue is most other strategies got worse, while tunneling didn't. I believe BBQ helped a lot against early tunneling, at least for me it definetly did.
Also because of many Adrenalin players, killers simply don't want to get into end game, because it's really hard to recover from it and it's going to get even worse next patch.
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Fair doesn't really work when we are choosing two perks, out of so many, to get a BP bonus whilst others don't... It's only going to lead to future agruments about x perk needing it or y perk. With the BP incentives for different roles, the BP gains would be huge and I don't think BHVR would like it even if it's for a good cause like this.
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I didn't mean perk basekit, just those % BP bonus system from those two perks.
So killers are more likely to go for different survivors and survivors are more altruistic.
You could lower maximum BP category back to 8k, so average BP gain is not that higher...
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I never mentioned anything being basekit in that reply. I'm saying it's not fair for only two perks to have the % BP bonus system. Part of the reason they removed those effects in the first place was that it wasn't fair for other perks to not have it whilst those two did (and Prove Thyself).
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The suggestion is that these BP bonus are basekit and not tied to perks.
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I thought they were talking about bringing it back to those specific perks... Thanks for the heads up. Knew I was getting a little lost here.
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No, just let everyone have system that rewards by % based on their actions.
Making killers spreading hooks and survivors being more altruistic seems both good for the game in my opinion.
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Yeah for sure that's completely my bad, should've took a nap and then started replying lmao.
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Basekit 2% haste stack (max 4) every first hook, if someone die u can't get more stacks (but u won't lose what you have). When all survivors have at least one hook the next time one survivor is hooked the gen with more progress lose 15% total progress (max 4), if someone die u can't use the stacks anymore.
When a survivor has 2 hook stage the next time he is unhooked he gets a 60sec effect (conspicuous actions remove it), if he dies all survivors gen speed, heal speed, gate speed, unhook speed etc. increase 15% (max 2). This effect won't activate after the first hook stage so survivors won't use it to aggro bodyblocks etc, 60sec effect because u can still bodyblock with off the record and ds. Doesn't work in end game.
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That is beyond broken...
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Yes 😆
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As long as tunneling is possible it doesnt matter what you do unless it creates another way to easily win the game. Tunneling needs to go. entirely. There is no space to discuss this.
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There is an easy solution:
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Take out tunneling and what's left? Nuke half the game of the only viable strategy in high mmr for them and who do you think will keep playing?
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Baby steps is the way to go.
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Other's have stated it, but people are going to play how they want, which has sort of made Tunneling seem bigger than it is. Half the majority of tunneling, or percieved tunneling, is the result of survivor players playing how they want. There are alot of player's who call tunneling when no tunneling is in fact taking place or is actually being created by other players that are not the Killer. Both sides are the issue, you can try and address one but you can never address the other.
Any incentive made won't stop the complaints and any mechanic implemented to prevent tunneling will eventually be exploited or even be punishing for thse who don't tunnel and toned back down to not being useful. This is a game with sides who have different conflicting objectives, players are going to go for the most effeciant methods, players are going to want to win and they are going to make mistakes, you can only balance so much until you ask, should this part of the game be overhauled completly into something else.
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Others are forced to play like that. Encouraging them to play in a way that better suits them is only going to help less killers tunnel. These are baby steps that could lead to something bigger in the future.
People calling tunneling something it isn't is not relevant to this discussion - I don't want this discussion to be sidetracked into a what's tunneling discussion.
All suggestions made here can, in no way, punish people that don't tunnel or even be expolitable. if so, I'd like an example.
Tunneling is a big issue and it should not be understated. No playstyle will ever shadow it due to its effectiveness and little skill requirement.
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I tunnel when i want win a game fast, when a unhooked survivor bodyblock, if i see him doing gen unhealed or when gens are really fast. If I play for chases/hooks and chill survs will still do gens injured after unhooked, finish them in front of my face etc, i am losing because i didn't kill someone fast.
When i play survivor i use a sabo build because 90% of my games someone is hard tunneled with 5 gens up and just give up.
I wanted a basekit where if u hook every surv at least one time and no one is dead, the next time u hook someone the gen with more progress lose his 15% progress (max 4 for each surv). This won't fix tunneling but at least who plays for hooks gets a small incentive to hook everyone one time and not kill rush.
Everytime u hook someone for the first time u win one stack (max 4), when u get 4 and all survs are alive this basekit works and all stacks will be permanently avaliable to use once for surv, if someone is dead before everyone is hooked once it won't.
U can still get 2 consecutive hooks in early game and leave the surv if u want to, or tunnel someone after u found every surv and hooked everyone once because at this time it should be 2/1 gens left.
Post edited by Sewinahs on0 -
grim embrace is a perk that rewards killer spreading hooks. that will make killer spread hooks but survivor won't enjoying playing vs that perk because constant gen-blocking is anti-survivor gameplay.
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For some reason my suggestion didn't make it when i posted, which was kind of the point of the explanation beforehand. So a quick addendum, removing the hooking/unhooking stage of the game would be one of the best way's to remove tunneling, preferably having it so survivor's come back into the trial far away from the killer. Removing the action of hooking however removes element's and opportunities from the game. So the change would require the killer to Hook, from that point it will be difficult for the killer to perform any form of camping/tunneling. Less an incentive and more a force of hand.
Essentially once the survivor hit's phase 2 on the hook the Entity claims the Hook with the survivor (Or the hooked survivor is shrouded in fog), this action counts as a self unhook for all unhook effects (no forcing Devour Hope), the survivor is then placed back into the trial away from the killer (certain killer power/equipment being appropiatly effected. Biopods being disabled within range od re-entry for example). This would put killer's in a rougher spot to camp and tunnel, since the other survivor players could make the decision to not unhook in a situation that could cause tunneling and if the killer wanted to tunnel when the action takes place they would have to waste more time investigating the map. The HUD would also need an indicator for the portrait when this happens, just for player clarity, since unhooking is not meant to be replaced. Unhooking a survivor would provide the better reward of having a player back in the game and being able to heal them sooner.
The idea of this would hopefully make tunneling/camping not a viable option for the majority of match's, providing the unhooked a greater chance of not being tunneled while giving the killer the slight benefit of a survivor being in-active for a breif period. This effect could also be applied to the anti-camp feature as an alternate self-unhook option to speed up the process if needed or be applied as a speed up effect if another survivor is hooked, there's room for experimentation with it.
There was the idea to have the entity claim the hooked survivor imimediatly and let them spectate other survivors for about 30 seconds before returning them to the tial but that might be to much of a change in terms of gameplay, but could work as a buffer period where the survivor can choose when within those 30 seconds to put themselves back into the game, with the hud only updating to say there back on the map once those 30 seconds have passed. I wouldn't suggest making phase 2-3 have the same effect, since it wouldn't be fair to the killer if the survivors just never saved, that or just have it so when a survivor hits phase 3 while 4 or more generators are active the Entity places the survivor back into the trial. Also probably having it so this action becomes disabled when down to 2 players.
It's not without some flaws and hurts some killer's while addressing some aspects of other killer's, but it provides tunneling isn't as strong of an option early on.
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It'd have to give more BP than winning the game, and that's ignoring that BP matters less and less as hours go on and players enter the upper end of MMR where tunnelling is at its most potent.
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Well, it worked in past, don't really see why it shouldn't do it now...
People who want to tunnel for ego boost will do it no matter what you do about it. But lot of players, including me, are really greedy. Getting 4 stacks on BBQ was basically alternative win condition we had. I couldn't care less someone got out as long I managed to hook everyone.
Right now, how many survivors escaped is all you have as a result. That's not really good thing in my opinion.
It'd have to give more BP than winning the game
Have you played with old BBQ? 100% bonus BP will easily get you more BP than just tunneled 4k. Even losing game as killer you often have around 20k, it's really not hard.
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