Whats going to happen with perks like jolt and nowhere to hide

Well, Nowhere To Hide got deleted from the game, so kind of a moot point now.

I reach 8 surges/kicks on gens on a regular basis in live. Usually it's when survivors push hard on center gens and disregard gens further away so its the only gens to defend...or its a map like the game where the center of the map hits oretty much every gen. I have a few videos of these matches and posted one a few days ago.

I don't think there'll be a major impact on many perks, however, I think it creates the interesting situation where it could be valuable to sneak 5% on any gens early, so that if the killer kicks them, or gets them hit with a perk like Surge, they have less possible regression events if they're valuable gens in the future. Hard to say though, because if you can get 5% on a gen you should probably just stay on it anyway.

I don't defend 3 gens from the beginning of the match. Since you're accusing me of being this type of players, at least watch my match. I dint camp at a gen, I'm actively chasing people all over the map. The problem is when I go against survivors where the ONLY gens they are putting pressure on are the central gens. Why would I go walk miles away to the corner and the map and keep tabs on a gen at 0%? Watch my match. I'm actively doing chases constantly even away from the 3 gens. Once I'm done with the chase and hook, of course I'm going back to the central gen that's now at 60% to kick it. You're acting like that's a "problem killer" that needs fixing. That's ridiculous.

This isn't the match video I was mentioning earlier, but here is me near the beginning of a match where I would be losing nearly half of my allowed charges on a gen within 10 seconds. I ignored the girl at the beginning because she has endurance and is bodyblocking my attempt at him.

https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/s/XuCrlLtCTV

Obviously not a 3 gen situation. A natural chase. I get one hook, as one survivor unbreakables up, and the other survivor has power struggle at the pallet.

That's mere seconds of losing nearly half the charges on a gen. If it wasnt the beginning of the match and other gens had progress, it would have hit the other gen near as well as one all the way upstairs. That would be 3 gens (one being all the way upstairs so not easy to get to) that had lost nearly half of the allowed charges all in 10 seconds causing for a very problematic endgame all for one hook. Again, terrible plays by the survivors, so under the new system, I would be punished by that gen being unregressable towards the end of the match? It's a small map and the gen is in the middle, it's almost guaranteed to get hit by surge. The most common response is "who cares? Looks like they NEED the help" but again, that is putting a situation where survivor misplays are getting rewarded by putting more restrictions on the killer. If they made their bed of misplays, they need to sleep in it, not get rewarded with an unregressable gen.

Yeah, if the system doesn't get an overhaul (like only activating after the 4th gen is done) then it's pretty much rip to Nowhere To Hide, Surveillance, Machine Learning, Dragon's Grip, Trail of Torment.

5% or not, using those perks (which aren't even aimed at gen regression) are not only a limited ressource but also a possible detriment late-game for non-3-genners.

Like, if I'm using Nowhere To Hide and see a gen that's barely started in-between chases, why would I not kick it on the chance a Survivor is hiding nearby? With this system I might have just completely wasted one of 8 perk uses on that gen if nobody is nearby.

Hell, Eruption alone take 1/4th of the charges (kick and proc) and Surge makes keeping count of regression events a nightmare.

What if a gen you kicked a few times times (or affected with Surge) for perk value during the whole game (something that happen fairly often if Survivors are pressuring specific gens, usually middle gens) ends up being one of the last gens? You're now down multiple charges on at least one gen, limiting your movements since that gen won't be able to regress too many times even if you never intended to 3-gen.

I wasn't doing kicks, was doing surges. Maybe you aren't aware of how the new system works - you lose charges every regression event, that means eruption, surge, and so on. It's NOT just kicks as you presume. Also, survivors have perks that can counter a pickup. That isn't the killer "messing up". Going down at a pallet guarantees an escape with power struggle if there's another survivor near (like my example: If I picked up, then the one outside runs in and pallet stuns me. If I go for the person outside, then the pallet survivor has enough recovery for a power struggle). That means at least one survivor is guaranteed to get up from the ground. Once I pick up just one of the survivors, that gives the other one not with powerstruggle plenty of time to do unbreakable which is 100% out of my hands, especially considering now notoriously bad the hook positions are in the map (often in rooms where you have to go a long ways and take a u turn to get to them). Going down in DBD absolutely does not guarantee you're getting hooked. Survivors get a LOT of second chances whether from perks, blinds, or stuns to counter being downed. That's not a killer mess up - that's just how the game is designed.

If they aren't running anti-pick up perks, then yeah, it's game over for the survivors. This match ended in about a minute. It was a bully squad, but they for whatever reason didn't run unbreakable and such.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6SvH38N7R4

Here's a NON-small map where I had 8 regression events on a single gen, again, doing constant chases and leaving the center of the map several times. (EDIT - counting the grab here as a surge, as it should have been considering I intentionally started the attack a distance away - not sure why it did a grab anyway).

Here is a match where I simply chased and down survivors on The Game. One gen had 8 regression events (12 regression events if you count locker grabs as a surge hit if they simply decided to not go into a locker) and that's including NOT kicking the gen when I could have. As you can see, I did constant chases, including chases upstairs, downstairs, and even to the opposite corner of the map to also try to protect a far gen.

You'll notice that both of these matches, the survivors kept putting all of their pressure in the center of the map meaning there was nowhere else for me to even be at. I had an unlucky shack spawn on the first match, so naturally the survivors stayed right in the center with the shack since it was a strong loop for them.

Despite me not just parking my butt at the 3 gen at the beginning of the match and never moving - never doing chases - never doing downs - you know...what this "fix" is supposed to only affect, I would be placed in a situation where I have to simply watch the generator go up and up and up until complete without me having the ability to regress it. It would be even worse if I actually used more than just ONE regression perk (the weakest one, to boot!) or if I used kick information perks such as trail of torment. If I was running simply eruption, the 8 charge limit would have been reached within the first few minutes of the match.

First, thanks for taking the time to actually review the footage instead of just making blanket accusations of "obviously a 3 gen killer" like others have. Kudos!

Anyway, I'm basing it of the DAMAGE EVENTS on the upper right, so I wasn't counting the failed skill check. I didn't point it out here because I forgot (I pointed it in the original post), but I was counting the grab at the beginning as a surge hit because under normal circumstances, a lunge like that would have been an expose down, not a grab for some weird reason (client\server confusion, I guess). That's the 8th. I wanted to avoid a grab so I'd get surge value. The game just said NOPE. XD

My point I was making is that reaching 8 isn't some "incredibly rare thing" that happens and that even a LOWER number was initially thought of as being incredibly super rare but "8" to be safe isn't actually realistic in a match. Remember, they said their actual target was under 8...that under 8 is incredibly rare (whatever that might be....6?) and 8 was a "buffer".

For The Game, it's 8 surge\kick events, but 12 if you count the locker grabs because again, under normal circumstances, those would simply be a down and trigger surge. It's just happenstance they hopped into a locker (not all survivors are smart enough to locker to avoid a surge hit, so kudos to them...but that's a rarity). Also, the statement that kicks would have been more effective doesn't come into play here. The gen would have less progress, but the amount of regression events would not change since they never did a tap and go. I leave gens, so they always have 4s+ on a gen. Again, both scenarios are showing the same thing. BHVR says that their initial number UNDER 8 gens is incredibly rare (I'm guessing 6?), but to be safe, they bumped it to 8 so it's super super super rare to happen...AND that it would ONLY happen in a 3 gen situation. All 3 of those videos show this simply isn't true. The fact is, this new change absolutely IS affecting killers who are NOT just camping gens from the beginning of the match refusing to do chases, and that 8 regression events is NOT a super incredibly rare situation that only happens when it's a 3 gen camp.

Here's the kicker though of the point I'm trying to make. In ALL of those matches, I hit 8+ regression events (again, the outdoor map that grab would have been a surge if it wasn't for client\server desync). That is with me only using a SINGLE regression perk - just one....and no information kick perks. If I had been using other regression perks, or making good use out of stuff like Nowhere To Hide, it would have been hitting 8+ MUCH faster. Just for an example's sake in the ones you types out, if I was using eruption, I would have capped out on the center gen about 4 minutes into the match (if you ignore the desync, 6 minutes otherwise) which very well could have changed the outcome of the match (as the gens are far spread out and a slow m1 killer takes a long time to get to the outer edges), all while I was never 3-genning. That's a problem. This absolutely 100% affects non-3 genning killers.

Now, I'll grant you, those survivors were in a losing situation - absolutely. You are correct, there. However, I'm not comfortable with survivors getting outplayed, or survivors making terrible decisions, and the game responds with an automatic killer nerf baked into the match because of that. What we are essentially doing is giving free catch up mechanics for poor decisions for the survivors. That's like giving basekit NOED to killers. Killers didn't play well early on and made poor choices? No worries, can still get a free leg up in the endgame. (not a fan of NOED obviously, ha). Remember, this was only support to hurt 3 gen killers who camp from the beginning and never chase. It's not working out that way.

TLDR;

Essentially, this heavily discourages killers from using kick information perks entirely, because if killers are simply running surge only and hitting 8 regression events (or even near 8 events) in normal non 3 gen situations, then there is absolutely NO room for kick information perks or additional regression perks...as if they do, they will absolutely breach the 8 limit fast. At the end of the day, this change negatively affects killers who specifically are not 3 genning. THAT is my point. Killers will be discouraged from using info kick perks, more than one regression perk, or have to stop to plan out "should I kick that gen?" when they could just freely do so before. Killers already have enough to balance on their plate. No matter how one could say "well the survivors were losing anyway" or "killers are overpowered anyway" or whatever else one might come up with, at the end of the day, non-3-genning killers are being ACTIVELY discouraged from playing as they normally would (info kick perks, seeing a gen and feeling free to kick, wanting to use perks like eruption, etc...). That goes beyond the scope of "this will only affect 3 gen camping killers who don't chase", and that's my point. Not if the survivors would have won or lost anyway...the point is this nerf is out of scope...beyond its intended target. As BHVR said earlier in this thread, now killers will have to be more mindful if they think they should kick something. That's a global statement to all killers...not 3 gen camping lame ones.

Now, confession time. I'm mostly coming from the POV of someone who mostly plays M1 killers. Most M1 killers can't afford to leave the central area of the map. Gens are just too far away to reliably defend. While other killers have sprints, teleports, and so on, killers like myers\GF\pig\trapper and such absolutely cannot afford to run off to a gen off in a far corner. Staying central and not doing extended chases are mandatory, and they are highly susceptible to being bullied. That's why on the Xeno, I feel I don't even have to stay central, I can just use the tunnels to get to even far away gens. His pressure is map-wide. M1 killers don't get that. They depend on gen control perks to buy them time to even do chases, as their chase power is abysmal. If BHVR's whole goal is to eliminate gen control as a killer tactic and purely go on chase's alone, the M1 killers seriously need some reworks. They can only afford to do short chases. This change really hurts their ability to control gens which leaves them holding the bag vs the rest of the killers who are more chase capable. This, I feel, is because m1 killers are strongly encouraged to stay centralized in the map, as the gens incredibly far away just aren't feasible to defend. If this change goes live, then M1 killers need options to spread themselves out further more viably. If we truly want to stop the 3 gen situation, then kicking m1 killers while they are down isn't the answer, reconsidering map design and gen placements is - or at the very least let the m1 killers branch out easier without being punished.

Thank you for coming to my DED talk.

Personal note - thank you once again for engaging in an actual productive discussion. You have my gratitude!

Nowhere to Hide is a kinda cheap perk anyway and you're not supposed to go around and kick gens in order to find a survivor. If your tracking is so bad that you need this perk to find anyone, it's a you-problem. It's still good enough because even when playing this perk i never regressed a gen 8 times or more. No gen is worth to defend it so excessively and scratchmarks and noises are still a thing. I don't remember that i triggered Surge on any gen more than 8 times. Gens either get done or they get abandoned eventually if you defend them too hard.

When i read those threads i get the impression that people play gen defender instead of killer. You're supposed to defend (and let go) gens tactically, but it's always best to apply pressure via chasing and downing (and eventually killing) while regress gens in between those actions. It shouldn't be your main focus to just regress gens, any halfway decent team will you punish you for that eventually by pushing other gens.

Reaching 8 on one generator (if not 3-genning from the beginning) is indeed not an everygame occurence.

However in the PTB, when using any gen-kick perk (not even regression-based, like Nowhere To Hide, Surveillance, Machine Learning, Dragon's Grip and Trail of Torment) then it wasn't rare that, when Survivors inevitably 3-genned themselves, at least one of the gens was at least halfway through it's regression events. A Killer shouldn't have to count every time they use one of those perks because it might make the last gen harder to defend.

Why should the Killer have a tougher endgame because they kicked gens for perk value in-between chases? If the system only kicked-in during the last gen then it would be more fair since a 3-genner (who brought a build for that) who didn't commit to chases and hooks will have to deal with a team in better shape at the end and would burn through their regression events quicker than a Killer playing normally that just ended up in a 3-gen that the Survivors created (which is most 3-gen instances) that will likely have to deal with a weakened team and have chase perks. Sure regression can only go so far but that way regular players would be less punished than 3-genners (which is the goal, and the whole marketing for this idea in the first place was to only affect 3-gen infinite game).

You're ignoring facts. I'm not the only one talking about this. The fact is you're ignoring the amount of people who have been providing feedback of hitting the 8 gen limit numerous times on the ptb feedback forums. I'm just providing video evidence that hitting the 8 limit isn't some incredible miniscule small chance of happening, it happens quite often, and with perks like surge, you can literally lose nearly half your allotted charges within mere seconds. THAT is a fact. We are supposed to be here to share feedback, not silence it.

If a killer wants to just camp a gen, as you said, it'll probably be a loss for the killer since they can push other gens. Part of the game is one side taking advantage of poor decision making from the other side. Sounds like nothing needs fixing - let the survivors take advantage of that. No reason to put in some restriction on how the killer wants to play. If the killer wants to plan poorly, that's on them. The downside to this concept though is some gen spawns are incredibly bad, such as dead dawg where a gen is at the gallows, and two in the field (if that spawn happens, i usually just let the survivors win, it is too unfair). The killer literally can hold that indefinitely (DEPENDING on the killer). Vs 4 survivors, they should be able to slowly chip away at the 3 gen, but it's a super long drawn out boring situation. That's what BHVR understandingly wants to change. The issue here is how the gens spawn. So yes, survivors will "eventually" win vs a 3 gen camper, but it's too long and exhausting. The answer is adjusting gen spawn logic, not nerfing all killers across the board and tying one hand behind their back.

I'm not presuming, I'm fully aware of the changes and neither on the PTB nor during any of my live matches have I found a match to ever hinge on the 8+n-th regression event (rarely ever have I even come close to that kinda number of regression events but that's besides the point).

Let me rephrase though: If a killer gets three slugs within ten seconds and still fails to end the match within two minutes with a 3 or 4 k, they are doing something wrong. If they need gen regression, deletion, blocking or delay in any way shape or form after an event like that to win the match they are lacking an essential set of skills.

I do find it kinda wild though that you go "in case a survivor has power struggle and is under a pallet they can get back up to" "one survivor is guaranteed to get back up". You have three slugs - pick the one who isn't under a pallet if you're that afraid of them.

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As for the Ghostie match: I know playstyles vary but there were several occasions where you were basically idle for a minute or more; no action that advances the match. -- Then again; Jeff and Ace also didn't seem particularly interested in actually playing the match. - Consequently, I wouldn't consider this representative.

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That being said. Yes, the longer a match is, the more likely you will hit that event count. Idk about you but my average match lasts seven to eleven minutes. - But coming back to the previous statement that there's no match where the question is "if" not "when" and the deciding factor is the 8+n-th regression event; that's a good thing and introducing a mechanic that makes sure the "when" isn't dragged out beyond what's reasonable is, imo, a good thing. And limiting resources (considering "gen regression" a resource just like pallets or item charges) is the way to go.

The "solution" is rather simple: Make the system only work during the last gen (maybe reduce the regression events to like 6 to compensate).

If the mechanic is only in effect during the last generator, it directly addresses the issue without making lots of perks, many of them not even being made to guard/regress gens, less desirable and not affecting perk builds too much. Killers that try to guard a 3-gen from the beginning (the problem we're trying to tackle) can no longer really do it since Survivors can simply do the other gens without pressure. It still removes a bit of depth from the Survivor's gameplay but making it active only during the last gen would at least leave Killer perk diversity less limiting. The Killers that end up in a 3-gen situation despite their intentions will at least have a fighting chance even if all 4 Survivors are still alive (which is not uncommon if no tunnelling was done and Survivors were on gens) since they will have a full set of "regression event" and Survivors will likely be in worst shape if the Killer chased the whole trial instead of staying around the same area which means that purposeful 3-genners will be more punished.

The idea itself has potential, it just can't be active the whole trial. Survivors and Killers need to keep as many viable perks as possible (which is why most perk changes in PTB were great except for STBFL which was a complete missed opportunity and counter-productive change that I hope will get reworked another way) to keep the game interesting and discovering fun combos.

It is not the number of restrictions, but the fact that there are restrictions and commitments on every possible matter of killer play that has frustrated me in recent years. Even the FOV slider, which was the norm in other FPS perspective games, took 7 years to implement. Next year, will there be restrictions placed on killers even climbing over window sills or destroying pallets?