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Tunneling
Instead of band aid fixing tunneling (which'll always be the correct thing to do if you want to win) the devs need to incentivise splitting hooks as of now...why wouldn't you tunnel assuming you want to win for survivor's "fun" (you'll get teabagged and told gg ez if you split hooks anyways) BP isn't enough
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They do. It's called pain rez.
Didn't help.
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The better question is what would incentivize you not to tunnel. Definitely not longer gens because that's been proven that people will still tunnel.
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Deduct Blood Points if you target the same person off hook within 60 seconds. Killer already has an easy accumulation of BP compared to Survivor so let's make it impossible to attain like a Survivor that gets tunneled.
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I'd rather have one less health state then another 10s on gens.
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I literally said BP won't matter I have everyone to prestige 3 (this isnt a humble brag) and I don't give a spit about BP its supposed to be an incentive not a deterrent
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I used not to tunnel. But recently my MMR got to a point where 8/10 of my games are 3-4 person escapes (mostly against decked out, SWFs, P100). All gens get done by 3rd hook. So I started tunnelling out of necessity, and actually started to have a chance again.
I am convinced that tunnelling is required at higher MMR to put pressure on surv to blodyblock, not do gens,.. otherwise it's a loss on killer.
OR maybe my skill level is way below the surv I am going up against,.. which is an MMR problem.
I've play more surv than kiler, it wasn't until I started playing killer when I noticed how bad it is for them once a certain MMR is hit.
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It is required at high levels anyone who says otherwise is just plain lying so you give them easier escapes.
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I'm quite surprised the devs made an anti-face camping mechanic before any anti-tunneling feature of any kind.
Pretty sure the community can agree that camping is a lot more manageable compared to tunneling.
Basekit DS (to a degree ofc) was an idea a lot of players had.
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The 4 healthstate meta hits like a brick wall
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if its encouraging to tunnel to win in the game maybe you have to ask yourself. is tunneling the issue or is it the balance.
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A Perk is a band-aid.
Not only that, it can also be used in conjunction with Tunneling, as it still procs on that first hook.
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It is both.
DBD's fundamental metric is time-management: Can Survivors spend enough time on their objectives before the Killer catches them.
Killer can more or less interrupt one survivor at a time. If a Survivor is removed, the future time that they could have provided is now burdened onto the other survivors. The remaining survivors are now more beneficial to interrupt by the Killer. Repeat.
People will optimize the fun out of the game.
Find what is optimal, and make that fun, or shift what is optimal.
Make being sacrificed early, inactivity on Hook, and short chases fun.
Or give survivors easy tools to prevent early survivor removal and/or give benefits to the Killer for not tunneling that equal or exceed the time-benefit from tunneling.
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Wanna make it basekit?
Well, if you want actually fix it, then bring back old BBQ. That actually made killers throw games just to get 4 stacks.
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That will appease one section of the playerbase, but not the competitive section.
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Literally who cares about competitive DBD seriously
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I've seen this argument a lot. No point in addressing part of the problem unless you can solve the whole problem?
No point curing cancer if you can't end world hunger, right?
The one of the biggest issues with tunneling right now is the frequency at which it occurs. If you fix it for part of the playerbase, the amount of killers tunnelling decreases (but not to zero), the frequency decreases. But I guess anything less than zero is not worth bothering with.
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Competitive section
Those actually need to tunnel to win. You can't fix that and it's minority anyway.
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Does "balance" matter in casual gameplay?
Should Insta-Mori's and Old Brand New Parts have never been removed because it's "competitive-minded balancing"?
Didn't say it couldn't be implemented, just that it only addresses some of the problem: If you like bloodpoints you'll go for it. But if you like "winning" the defined Trial mechanics, you'll fallback onto tunneling.
Tunneling lets you win harder, it isn't only a "crutch". And people tend to gravitate towards better strategies over time. Why do you think looping is popular even though it wasn't the main focus of the game to start with. Thankfully looping is relatively entertaining for both sides.
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Tunneling lets you win harder
I have feeling your concept of competitive and mine are different....
When I talk about competitive I mean tournament levels. It's not win harder there, it's often win or lose situation.
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Probably.
When I say competitive I'm talking about the drive to reach your goal to the detriment of your (human) opponents. This game is inherintly competitive.
And I think the problem with Tunneling is that it's both effective as shown that it's the meta tournament strat, and it's the path of least resistance:
- If you don't find another survivor if you choose to roam, if the survivor is unhooked you now know where two survivors are, who are likely healing, whom you can interrupt and likely will have one already injured that's easier to down.
- You can proxy hook to intercept rescuers and potentially interrupt three survivors at once (Hooked, intercepted, new rescuer)
- The Hooked Survivor is one more hook state closer to being removed from the game, which upon reaching makes all existing strategies that much more time-efficient
- A more readily apparent defense target can give some semblance of comfort and ease, part of why camping was so prevalent.
Eventually, it will become the prominent gameplay style for a player unless they actively try to avoid it.
Post edited by AssortedSorting on0 -
Eventually, it will become the prominent gameplay style for a player unless they actively try to avoid it.
Well, nerfing most other strategies is really not helping...
Sloppy is going to get nerfed. So hit&run will take a hit.
Hexes overall are just shadows of past, like how often you see that? Their spawns are just awfull and you neede Ruin as slowdown with it... There used to be time where survivors actually used totem detection perks. Those are useless now.
End game builds are way less used, because of NOED nerf and Adrenalin rise.
3-gen is getting nerfed now. So endgame you just need to get someone out of the game -> tunnel.
Most slowdown perks got nerfed hard, I highly doubt we are going to see Grim Embrace for long btw, because it won't be fun for survivors imo. 3-gen mechanic will make many of them worse too.
Camping got nerfed in many forms.
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Everything you listed
apart from campingcan be used in conjunction with tunneling.Nerfing them doesn't address the core issue. Trying to get a singular survivor out of the Trial as fast as you can fundamentally gives you more breathing room. No Perks, no addons needed.
And nerfing camping (which was a good move) just makes tunneling more desirable.
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conjunction with tunneling
It's more like you go for tunneling, when it doesn't work for you.
3-gen nerf is going to increase tunneling quite a lot imo.
Basically before you had chance to defend your gens and make a comeback from it, it's less likely with this feature, so getting someone out of the game is just way better and easier.
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Or tunneling when you have the opportunity to?
It can be pretty easy to tunnel, even accidentally (usually with undetectable Killers)
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Or tunneling when you have the opportunity to
I consider tunneling an issue only when killer goes into the game with this as main plan and tunnel at 5 gens.
I don't really care when killer does it later (1-2 gens left). It's understandable for me. They still want to win and there is not many options at that point how to do it.
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Why not do it earlier than that?
I'm not a great player, and because of that I'm in lobbies where I get A LOT of other players will also make mistakes that I could easily capitalize off of early. (still kinda feels scummy though and I've had to force myself to start doing it so I can get into higher MMR).
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Well, there needs to be reason to not do it as first thing.
Before it used to be BBQ. That was basically first thing many killers wanted to do, then was tunneling time if gens were low.
Well, if you play smart you will try to hook more than one survivors just to see who will be easiest to tunnel. Tunneling first survivor you see is just gampling. You hope they are not too good, if they are not, then you win.
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I mean. You downed them. If it was quick you've got your answer. If it wasn't you might feel like you're losing already and need to tunnel. And if you're wholly outmatched you likely will not be able to get that "carrot" for not tunneling, since it's less effective.
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It's unlikely all survivors are that good. It can happen of course, but it's rare.
Usually there is a weak link that can cost game for everyone, you just need to find him.
Or play in a way you don't need to tunnel from start and have good chance to win. High tier killers, or perks can carry you through it.
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Why do you think strong Perks/Killers are excluded from tunneling?
Post edited by AssortedSorting on0 -
This game gets more survivor sided and unfair as the days come. It's a 16 vs 4 in perks
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I suppose you gave your own answer; if you wanna win tunneling is always gonna be the most efficient and reliable way. No matter how much you incentivise hook splitting.
Or do you actually wanna ask what could make the playerbase not care as much about winning? - safe for BP, since you ruled those out as an incentive already.
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Another route is remove the speed boost perks. The amount of time it takes to catch a survivor with multiple speed boosting perks is too long. Tunneling gets you at least some points while getting gen rushed.
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People who wants to ego boost will use strongest perks/killers and tunnel. You can't fix it. That's like people who gives up whenever something go wrong. You just can't fix those. Those are often same category tho.
It's different for majority of players in my opinion, most people will not go for tunneling / camping as main strategy. If I use multiple slowdown perks, it simply gives me time to hook multiple survivors, before I am "forced" to get someone out of the game.
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So you're saying that tunneling is in a fine state because most people have empathy and will willingly go out of their way to make the experience of other players better at their own expense?
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not really, I think that should be reason to hook multiple survivors even for people without empathy.
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Excluding a competitive reason?
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You can't fix that. If you want to fix tunneling, you can focus only on majority of people.
Unless you want to nerf the hell out of it, so noone can even do it. That would fix it for competitive killers, because they will not be able to do it. It's going to piss off most killers in dbd tho.
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Don't the majority of people turn to tunneling when they feel like they're losing? Isn't your solution trying to make losing via hook spreading feel like winning through adjacent rewards? Why sidestep the root issue?
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make losing via hook spreading feel like winning
I have felt like winning whenever I got 4 stacks of BBQ...
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Yes.
Why make that route explicitly only for BP and not for the "Core match conclusion"?
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If you gained lost progression on your tier based on hooks rather than kills it would help to move killers to different in game behaviors.
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The thing is grade barely matters outside of bp bonuses killers who tunnel and camp at 5 gens aren't gonna care
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This is the only valid answer to tunneling and camping of any kind. If some chucklehead wants to wander around the hook, chase immediately after being unhooked, and continue to lose points, that's their prerogative. If people are going to be lazy in their playstyle, it should never be rewarded.
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Removing BP does NOTHING do you think the people who did basement bubba care about BP? All you're doing is hurting killers who need to strategically tunnel. I said Incentives not deterrents in this very thread there being constant deterrents is exactly why the game is in the position its in tunneling will ALWAYS be the correct thing to do if you want to win no matter if you like it or not (you don't have to tunneling isn't bannable)
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Strategically tunnel? XD That's a very diplomatic way of saying lazy. Tunneling not being a reason to ban someone doesn't mean as much as you want it to. It simply means it's not against BHVR's arbitrary set of rules.
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