Only killers should be punished for forcing their objectives?
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ı don't know. Even i lose all gens, it's usually i had 5 - 7 hooks. And that's my worst matches. So i am just taking L and moving on.
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If your feelings are getting hurt over a video game you play online, I don't know what to tell you. I'm going to play how I want and if anyone's feelings get hurt, I couldn't care less. I play both sides and when I get tunneled out, yeah, I get annoyed but I move on. I don't demand someone play a certain way so my feelings don't get hurt. It's just a video game and that person is a stranger. They don't know you. It's not personal, it's Dead by Daylight.
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Perks have a lot more to do with how the game is then anything....
Cause not running certain Perks means a "win" or a "loss"
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Good for you.
Now all we need old DS back. So killers can play however they want but not for free. Not without risk.
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Why it's bad that killer forces his objectives, but "oh well what else should we do", when survivors do the same?
tunneling prevents the survivor being targeted's ability to partake in many aspects of the game. Some people like being chased all game, but some don't. As a survivor being tunneled, you spend the whole game on the hook or in chase, and have no freedom or agency to do anything but run and hope that's enough, which many find unfun.
Now let's look at "gen rushing": Can survivors force you to do any one particular thing, or otherwise prevent you from having any agency in the game? Nope. You can "tunnel" a generator and the generator's feelings won't be hurt. Sure, the killer might not like that they are losing, but that's different from having no agency in the game (even if it in unwinnable). You are still welcome to chase whoever you want, go wherever you want. If you have a killer challenge that isn't based on killing everyone, survivors have little to no power to actually stop you from doing it. On the flip side, good luck doing most survivor challenges when the whole game is spent on the hook, on the floor, or in chase.
Completely ignore everything in game because of 4 Resi, 4 Adrens?
This is actually a situation where you could camp/slug and it would be justified and the afflicted survivor should be mad at their teammates. It is very easy to force survivors to heal or sacrifice a hook stage by proxy camping/slugging when you know they are all injured.
Survivors have been put in a situation through many years of healing nerfs to where resetting and healing is sometimes a waste of time, and it can be better to push gens injured. I wouldn't say this is "completely ignoring" everything, especially with dead hard nerfed, survivors are now sacrificing a whole health state and making it a lot easier for you to end chases and pressure them.
This isn't a scenario where survivors "aren't punished" for focusing only on their objective. The punishment is the lack of health states, and it's up to you to capitalize on it.
I'm so tired of being punished for non-tunneling with 4 Adrens, really.
You will always be "punished" for not playing in the most optimal way. This is not the fault of adrenaline but rather an issue where tunneling is so strong and easy, that every player thinks "I could have won easily if one guy was dead already" and it makes the loss sting more. This is not a fault of adrenaline. You are base game punished for not tunneling because a fourth survivor is alive. Same thing if a survivor decides to do side objectives and give the killer extra time instead of solely doing gens.
If you want an example of a perk that, BY DESIGN, actually specifically punishes more fun, non-optimal play, look at Hex: Pentimento with dull totems.
4 toolboxes with BNP?
We have all seen the videos of 4 minute game speedruns. I don't think anyone here will tell you that 4 toolboxes + BNP is balanced and healthy for the game. "Gen tunneling" is not a thing, but that is a separate point.
3 gens done by first hook every second game? 8% of killer's objective vs 60% of survivors' objectives?
Not a good comparison. First, the game starts with the killer at their weakest and survivors at their strongest. It is expected that the first few generators go quickly and the last few take longer. Second, the survivor objective is not simply "do all the gens". Finally, it isn't really accurate to express the killer and survivor objective progress with simple percentages. If the killer has "25% of their objective" aka 1 survivor dead at 5 gens left, the survivors will most likely lose that game. If survivors have "100% of their objective" aka gens done, but one is on the floor, one is dying on hook, and the other in chase, it is not really representative of the situation.
Granted, it is very difficult to exert gen pressure as some killers on some maps if both sides are decent. But 3 gens for 1 hook isn't really 8% for killer vs 60% for survivor, as I've explained the killer's objective tends to progress quicker as the match goes on whereas the survivor's objective tends to progress slower.
Game really needs to be slightly slower on both sides imo.
Sure, I don't disagree with you there. But most of this thread is an "us vs them" argument farm about tunneling and not really relevant to this point. And when some natural slowdown happens on the survivor side, tunneling needs to both be less optimal and less easy, otherwise it will just continue to be the better strategy and nothing will change.
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Hey Siri, set timer for 60 seconds
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And this is the reason why only sweats and camping/tunneling killer remain active.
Until those tactics get removed and truly only sweats remain.
Good job 👍
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The game will never be balanced in general with the sheer amount of killers
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I did not mean to imply anything about the strength of regression perks. Just that killers have to end chases for the good ones to work.
I cannot say how good the old version of Ruin (the one with skill checks) actually was. I simply wasn't around back then. Although, I imagine that this perk must have been terrible for beginners and less skilled survivors. I considered Ruin a pretty healthy perk overall because it required the killer to chase and it had a pretty good but fair effect (although old Undying must have been a huge pain in the Ace).
To be honest though, I think Ruin was past its prime anyway. Boon perks have lead to many survivors actually learning common totem spawns and that meant Ruin was more likely to be found. It was still pretty good but the risk of it just deactivating early on was huge. Maybe that's just my own perception though.
I think the current regression meta is mostly fine. It has its flaws but so did Ruin. The only issue I have with it is, that killers with trouble in chase can't capitalise on them as well as they'd need.
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As killers were never sweat before. The final goal for them is 100% kill rate, the Devs goal is 60%. To achieve higher than 60, you should sweat.
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Just a little something I wanted to point out :)
The original versions of Ruin were really good perks. Even though it was possible to power through those Hex Skill Checks, most survivors would go on a totem hunt when they saw Ruin was being used. It was a perk made to slow the game down... just a little bit (props if you get this reference), and it did a wonderful job. So much so that immediately after the rework some killers got a bit confused as to what they should run and how to approach the game, especially around Green Ranks. Those were some of the easiest trials I ever had as survivor.
People did realize the potential of Reworked Ruin eventually, but the perk really shined when Undying first came out. Every game had that combination, the infamous Ruin + Undying meta. Also the only reason why I bought Blight and leveled him up. Boons were eventually released and changed things a bit, but the original Undying was no longer around when that happened.
I think the current meta is a bit excessive on the stacked gen defense perks, but I understand why it is that way.
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Not really topic, just wondering
Why do people have the need to change definitions community made up years ago?
Last year some people try to call tunneling as "kill rushing" for some reason and now they are trying "gen tunneling"?
Its still the same thing, no need to change how we called it for years.
Also its not something bad or good, its just an action taken in a video game, everyone tunnels sometimes, no need to be ashamed of it so much that you feel need to change the name of it
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Good luck when i am waiting in locker to being grabbed. The moment DS's time is out, Head On will do and chase will continue and your 60 seconds is already wasted for no reason while other survivors are doing gens.
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It's had plenty of time with the conspic action restriction and it wasn't a problem.
(Outside of killers complaining that the anti-tunnel perk was making tunnelling harder.)
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If the survivor player cries after being tunneled, I think they have more severe problems
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I feel like, Genrushing is a difficult term. Some say, it only applies to survivors that focus solely on gens, even ignoring hook stages and brining bnp + commodeus every game. Others claim, to already counts, if a survivor finishes / commits to a Gen in the killers face.
My overall stance is this: no match of dbd should be finished in 4-5 minutes. Not from the killers side or the survivors side.
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I lose one gem minimum for my first hook. 2 and a half is more the norm.
As a Pig main, I know that only then, my game starts, but think about this: not every killer can delay survivors for several minutes without perks.
I would consider myself above average with good ol Piggy but I have to say, losing that much in this little time without the possibility to do something against it does feel bad. This, I can absolutely get behind.
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I am not safisfied when this happens. I got gobbled of a potentially good match.
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I absolutely agree!
However, this not only applies to tunneling. If the killer had a horrible start, hasaybe two hooks with 4 gens done. Should the survivor finish the 5th in their face?
If you ask me, that's similar. But it's way less complained about for also understandable reasons.
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Why do people have the need to change definitions community made up years ago?It's a rhetorical trick to try and win an argument. If people have already reached the conclusion that X is bad in their minds, if you can convince them that Y is also X you can piggy back off the decision they've already made.
So if you already believe that tunneling is bad, I don't have to convince you that gen rushing is bad if I can instead convince you that gen rushing is the same as tunneling. This is easier to do if you slap the same label on it. I now have two ways to convince you of my point of view.
It's not really unique to this community, its very common in politics/social movements to argue over definitions to make the rest of the argument as favorable to your side as possible. The thing that makes this community different than others is that we are much more us vs them (much like politics) because people have preferred sides. Symmetrical games people have preferred character mains/weapons/etc, but not whole sides. You can still have disagreements, obviously, but they don't get as heated because there isn't the mass presumption of bias.
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Does it matter what we call it? The ideas the same.
Tunnel gens, gen rushing, tunnel kills, kill rushing. It's all the same in the sense of "I'm mowing down my objective efficiently because I want to win".
There's plenty of IRL examples of the same thing being referred to with different names/words/phrases. I don't see why all of a sudden in a game it NEEDS to be referred to as only 1 specific word/phrase.
Everyone knows what's being referred to.
The main point is: you're focusing you're objective I'm focusing mine. It hurts your "feelings" to get killed quickly? Well maybe it bothers killers too to have gens finished quickly.
If you want killers to consider your feelings on losing too quickly you need to respect theirs as well. As long as many if not most survivor players refuse to show the killer any respect or kindness in this regard, especially out of the flimsy defense of "ThE GeNs DoNt HaVe FeELinGs", things will remain as they are.
Sure the gens don't, but the killer player does. Why should they respect your feelings and your play, if you don't respect theirs?
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It makes a difference because it draws a false equivalence.
Killers can choose not to tunnel, while still progressing.
The only way survivors can 'not gen-tunnel' is by loitering around doing nothing.
As long as many if not most survivor players refuse to show the killer any respect or kindness in this regard out of the flimsy defense of "ThE GeNs DoNt HaVe FeELinGs", things will remain as they are.
We've had YEARS upon years of killers constantly refusing to accept any measures being taken against these extremes, but now that killers have been buffed to hell and back and survivors are playing efficient to try and keep up with it, suddenly it's the survivors that are stubbornly refusing to yield?
Gens going 'too fast' is comparatively recent. Killers cutting corners and wrecking the game in the process is as old as DBD itself.
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They won't cry but they will complain rightfully. It's BHVR's job to fix tunnelling issue. DS hopefully will back.
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That's under the argument that its a false equivalence which I disagree with. It might be false in your view, but to others not so.
Well if survivors have to do chest and do totems then so be it. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You need to do something to give the killer extra slack since they are giving your side extra slack. If you don't want to then don't ask for extra slack.
So would you rather have both sides play relaxed or both sides play efficient? You can't have efficient for me but not for thee. Well, at least if you don't want to be a donkey. Which is exactly the reputation survivors have and this is a large reason why, double standards.
Also idk where you've been, but gens going too fast has been complained about since forever. I can only account for when I started playing the game back when clown was released, and ever since then its been complained about. It is in no way "recent" that junk is older than Plague.
Post edited by MrPenguin on8 -
I even highlighted the main idea of the post in one sentence:
All i want is so people remember that both sides can complete their task crazy fast.But it seems that everyone is more interested in discussing if I can use this words to describe what i'm saying, lol.
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If you ask me, i would even propose a basekit ds because i dislike having healthy mechanics locked behind a payment wall. The version i would propose:
Basekit - anti tunnel:
- after you get unhooked (first AND second hookstage): if the killer downs and picks you up, you can hit a skill check and escapee the killers grasp, stunning them for 4 seconds in the progress. While this is active, you can not interact with pallets or items and if two or more survivors are chased with the killer, you (with the mechanic active) lose collision with the killer (kinda like Sadako). This mechanic deactivates upon a conspicious action or being healed by another survivor to 50% (not counting resurgance, if resurgance is in play, the mechanic deactivates upon 90% healing progress).
Perk - decisive strike:
- increases the stun duration by 2 seconds for a 6 second stun.
This mechanic, however, has to be introduced with a mechanic that encourages the killer to go for multible hooks. Something like old bbq stacks. As it was already discussed by @Xernoton .
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So would you rather have both sides play relaxed or both sides play efficient?
My guy, we had that. Killers didn't like it. Now it's gone, and killers don't like that either.
Any talk of restricting camping/tunnelling/slugging is always going to get mired in a bunch of forum killers decrying the very idea or drowning it in drawbacks and conditions to make sure that the mechanism, even if it ever does see the light of day, does the bare minimum.
We had whole loadouts being dedicated to countering those strategies and those had to be nerfed. We had people wasting time on boons, they had to be nerfed. We had people healing, that had to be nerfed.
Also idk where you've been, but gens going too fast has been complained about since forever.
But it's never been complained about more than now. Now, when gens all take 10 seconds longer. Now, when killers work faster in a bunch of aspects.
You know what it is?
As long as tunnelling/camping/slugging are in the game, survivors will always be 'too strong'. Gens will always go 'too fast'. Because as long as you have the ability to utterly break the game, you have leverage it to make demands. All these methods are used as beatsticks in balancing discussions.
'We'll tunnel less after a round of nerfs.'
'We'll tunnel less after the next round of nerfs.'
'No, no, one more round of nerfs and we'll totally tunnel less.'
'Gosh, you survivors are so stubborn, just take your nerfs and we'll totally tunnel less.'
Kill rate could be 95%, and as long as tunnelling has not been addressed yet, the second someone complains about tunnelling, there will be complaints about 'gen-tunnelling'.
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Gens are the wildcard in DBD's balance and their speed/completion time is currently balanced by the Claudette self-caring in a corner for 60 seconds and the David just doing his "open x chests" tome challenge for half the match.
If the teams is actually sticking to gens and doesn't leave them as soon as they hear the Terror Radious, and you have someone with minimal loop knowledge being chased first, the killer gets their first hook at 2 gens left, easily.
Gens are wildely inconsistent.
And when a Killer tunnels right from the get go in the match, I usually THINK (and I say this as someone who plays more survivor) they're doing that because they don't know what gens they're going to get this time, not because they want to hurt someone's feeling playing the game.
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I'm not sure what you mean by "we had that". We had what? Both sides playing efficient? Isn't that the supposed problem? If that's the case its not just "killers" survivors don't like it either.
"forum survivors" also reject the idea of doing anything to combat their unfun effective strategies as well. Both sides go through this.
Those things got nerfed, in most cases, because they were too strong. Things on the killer side got nerfed as well for the same reason. Both sides experience this.
You can't just sub one problem for another and then ask "but why are you complaining about the new problem?". It's still a problem and should be complained about so it can hopefully get fixed. We need improvements not replacing old problems with new sometimes worse problems.
How much something is complained about is subjective. We got gen times increased because it was complained about so much and people were legit quitting killer and survivor ques were 20+ minuets. Was that more or less than now? To me it feels about the same.
Survivors (good ones) are too strong, for the majority of killers at least, if you don't tunnel/camp/ect. That's part of the problem. I'm not sure if that's what you're saying or not but that's my opinion on the matter. They are tied to each other. Gens do fly and they do so because killers can make kills fly by as well. If you choose not to have your kills fly by, the gens don't care. They don't get longer timers and as is survivors also don't care they will still slam gens. At least one of these needs to change if you have any serious intention of making the game fun for everyone not just survivors.
Tunneling and camping aren't "breaking the game", the game is designed with them in mind. The game expect you to. Choosing not to do so is handicapping yourself. Likewise focusing gens is not "breaking the game", but you handicap yourself if you choose not do it.
So again I ask, do you want both sides to handicap themselves or not? There needs to be a general agreement for both sides to either play "to win" or "Play to win but with handicaps so it's more fun".
Killers are not going to tunnel less unless you give them a reason to the same way survivors are not going to slam gens less unless you give them a reason to. Whether that's from the game itself or the community.
There are killers who play "nice" because of the idea that they should to help others have fun. But I never see survivors holding themselves up to that ideal as well.
If killers should play "nice" why shouldn't survivors? The double standard is hurting both sides.
Do I expect it to change? No. Survivors want their handbook signed but don't want to sign the killers. That's how its always been. I'm cynical af and would love to be wrong about this. But I've seen close to if not zero progress in the entire time I've played the game.
Post edited by MrPenguin on10 -
Love the posts!
Such a Blessing to have you and Pulsar and the handful of voices here on these forums who speak sensibly and truthfully, without any delusion.
Keeps other players (who know the facts you are speaking are legit) remembering that we’re not alone in our realistic ways of thinking, and maintaining our sanity; while preventing the attempted gaslighting via the ‘Killer-is-in-danger-of-going-extinct-Quick-bring-on-the-Survivor-nerfs-immediately!’ rhetoric that so many people on here spew.
Like a breath of wholesome, fresh oxygen amongst the stale, polluted, life-sucking atmosphere.
Feels Awesome, thanks🫶🏽
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"forum survivors" also reject the idea of doing anything to combat their unfun effective strategies as well. Both sides go through this.
Strategies like what?
Because currently, the biggest complaint coming from the killer side is that survivors sometimes win by doing their objective. That is what these complaints boil down to. That's why the term shifted from 'genrush' to 'gen-tunnelling'. Because genrushing was already acknowledged to be a problem, and killers now just want to make 'survivors doing gens' into a problem.
Tunneling and camping aren't "breaking the game", the game is designed with them in mind. The game expect you to.
This argumentation can excuse literally everything. Remember old old BNPs? Instafix a gen?
Game was designed with them in mind. Game expected you to.
Did it break the game?
So again I ask, do you want both sides to handicap themselves or not? There needs to be a general agreement for both sides to either play "to win" or "Play to win but with handicaps so it's more fun".
The handicap you're asking for on the survivor side is literally that they just throw the game. The slowest possible pace isn't slow enough for you. And guess what? It's going to continue to not be slow enough for you. You lose one match and you'll be back here.
Tunnelling is by far the most effective and fastest way to win.
Doing gens is the ONLY way to win for survivors. Asking them to stop doing that is to ask them to just lose.
Killer winrates are above where they should be. They're a good distance above survivor win rates. But it's not enough. And it's never going to be. Tunnelling is always going to make you feel like you have an argument.
It needs to be ripped out so killers can see how the game is supposed to work.
If, and only IF, this causes killer winrates to drop too low, we can talk about nerfing survivors. Because we've been through several waves of survivor nerfs and the tunnelling never stopped, and nerfs to tunnelling continue to be off-limits. I don't trust any forum killer to admit, after any survivor nerfs, that tunnelling is breaking the game, so we're not doing this whole 'nerf survivors and then we'll stop tunnelling' song and dance again.
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You can't Head On with crows
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I think its kinda minimizing to say its just "survivors win sometimes by doing their objective". That's like saying "survivors are just upset that the killer sometimes win by doing their objective. Their trying to say 'killers getting kills' is a problem'". Its not just winning in general that's the problem. Its doing the objective in the mot effective playstyle for either side that's not fun for the other or sometimes both parties. From the killer perspective, especially when they expect and often demand that the killer purposefully play in a very suboptimal way that in any serious match is throwing. It's not just people saying saying "doing gens at all is a problem".
I understand what you're trying to get at but tunneling and camping are not OP and overpowered. They are needed to preform at an even level in an evenly skilled match. Things like BNP were not needed to preform equally and they were unbalanced.
So maybe its more accurate to say "the game is balanced with these things in play/mind" which cannot be said for BNPs and such.
Sure, if you outclass the survivors you can spread hooks around. If you always play by spreading hooks, like myself, you should be in an MMR where you can do that and still win reliably. But that needs matchmaking to work well and we both know it doesn't for both sides.
"The handicap you're asking for on the survivor side is literally that they just throw the game."
Yes, exactly, and you're asking killers to do so as well. If both sides throw then neither side is throwing. The problem is survivors are asking killers to throw, while they themselves play efficiently.
I understand that "well we don't want to do totems and chest, it makes winning take longer and actively detrimental". which is fine, but if that's you attitude stop asking for the killer to spread hooks, because it's the same for them.
No ones asking for only survivors to handicap themselves while the killer tunnels, just that survivors return the favor when killers don't tunnel in their own way. But instead we get this attitude that "no we can't. We NEED to ONLY do gens and do so efficiently, even if the killer is giving us slack". Which is exactly the thing in the way.
I'll give you slack if you give me slack. This people will be a lot more willing to agree to.
You need to give me slack but I won't give you any. This people will not agree to and they shouldn't.
"Killer winrates are above where they should be."
I'm not sure where you're getting this data. Killer win rate should be around 60% so accounting for discrepancies in killer strength maybe 55%-65% give or take afaik. I would like to see where it's above those numbers.
Well, I can't speak for others but I'm not asking for a nerf to survivors alone and acting like weaker survivors = less tunneling because that's not true. Just like nerfing killers won't make survivors suddenly stop slamming gens.
If its coming from the game, both sides need to be slowed down. How that's done can vary.
If its coming from the community, the mindset of survivors needs to change to consider the killers side of the equation and their fun as well.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you want killers to not tunnel and purposefully make bad decisions while survivors continue to slam gens and play efficiently. To that I ask you, how is this fair to the killer player?
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Tunneling is not necessary.
It's easy, efficient and EXTREMELY difficult to counter, ie, OP. That's why it's common.
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On that I'd disagree. At least if you're on an even skill level with the opposition.
Like I said if you outclass the survivors a lot sure. Which with the way matchmaking is, can happen more often than not for some.
If you always play a certain way then you will get put where that playstyle is effective. Myself for example. I'm probably well below where my skill level actually is in MMR, but that's because I DO spread hooks. So ideally I'm put where me handicapping myself is equal to the skill of the opposition.
Matchmaking could be better but that's the idea.
When I face good efficient survivors, they will roll me because I'm handicapping myself. As they should. But if we both handicapped ourselves we could both have better matches. But they don't want to.
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What I am getting at is that this line:
"I understand what you're trying to get at but tunneling and camping are not OP and overpowered. They are needed to preform at an even level in an evenly skilled match."
Is getting cemented more and more with every survivor nerf/killer buff. This idea that you -have- to tunnel is a supposition that's being leveraged to demand more survivor nerfs/killer buffs.
It really doesn't matter what the state of the game is like, as long as you, as killer, get to be the sole arbiter of what's 'necessary to win', you're always going to claim tunnelling is required.
And you're never going to find out if it's true, either. Tunnelling can inflate your MMR to a point where you're not getting 'even' matches. Matches won by tunnelling could've been winnable without. You'll never know.
That's why tunnelling needs to be ripped out. We'll never have a clear understanding of the balance as long as it exists.
"I'm not sure where you're getting this data. Killer win rate should be around 60% so accounting for discrepancies in killer strength maybe 55%-65% give or take afaik. I would like to see where it's above those numbers."
A -win- rate of 60%!? That's extremely killer sided.
I assume you mean a -kill- rate of 60%, which BHVR, a long time ago, stated was what they felt was best for the game.
But right now, we're sitting on killer winrates that are a little ways over survivor winrates. Killers are outperforming survivors. Increasing killrates would slant the game too much towards killers.
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No.
If your opponents are the same skill, you do not need to tunnel to kill two. You probably don't need to tunnel to kill three.
If your opponents are better than you, then sure.
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But killers are not the sole arbiter. Survivors are also deciding slamming gens is also "necessary to win".
If you have to tunnel to win then you have to. If you have to slam gens you need to. That doesn't mean survivors need nerf or killers need buffs, just that you should tunnel your objective.
However if you want to nerf killers by removing or hindering their tunneling abilities, then for the sake of balance you should do the same to the other side. Unless survivors are already underpowered, which is not my experience playing as or against survivors unless its like, Nurse.
Imo, it's not "inflating your MMR" to play in the most efficient way possible. That's what your MMR is for the playstyle you're using. It should put you in matches where playing your best is the same as the opposition playing their best. Is it it inflating survivors MMR by them slamming gens? No, that's just what their MMR is.
It sounds like you want a shift in the balance philosophy and/or state where tunneling is no longer the thing we balance around. Which if that's true on that I can agree. We should stop tunneling. We just need to do so in a way that doesn't bork over the entire balance.
Again, either from the game or the community.
Also yes I assumed you meant killrate since that usually what people mean. So I can take fault for that. But I also don't know where this data for winrates is coming from, so if you could share that'd be appreciated.
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An equal match for me that killer able to get 5 kills in 2 matches, and that achievement is really easy to get without the need of tunneling.
If you play it fair against a team and get 2K, you would be able to 3-4K if you tunnel. Which mean, for survivors to have 2E against you as a tunneler, they have to be better than you. And if you dont even get 2K after tunneling, survivors are too far better than you which they deserve the winning.
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Yes.
We'll just have to agree to disagree here.
With all due respect I don't really see a way for either of us to prove whether it's "necessary" or not. You feel like its not, I feel like it is. Plenty of others share the same views as both of us.
But regardless we should at least be able to come to an agreement of "if you want slack you need to give slack".
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Who decided that was "fair"? Its not "fair" for one side to slam their objective while the other doesn't. That doesn't sound fair to me.
Yeah it would be easy for someone like me because I'm in an MMR where I already don't need to tunnel because that's how I always play. I'm getting survivors well under how well I could play because I choose not to play optimally. But if I wanted to play as well as I could, that would not be the case as I would be tunneling.
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Tell this joke to killers at tournament. Where to the time one survivor is dead, killer barely could have equal game with 1-3 gens left and have CHANCE to win, even on Nurse. Even with limitations on perks and items. And it with keeping in mind that AFC system doesn't exist in tournaments as well.
If tunneling needed in pubs? Not necessary in most matches. But you never now if you queue up against strong team and if you started to spread hooks with them, you pretty much will lose.
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People have wild ideas for balancing this game, and I guarantee some don't even care about balance and just want really busted buffs. Also this may be the only community I see that also wants things to be nerfed to oblivion instead of reasonably balanced to the point where people end up arguing over the same ideals, only over minute things like how long a perk is active and act like each person in question is wanting wildly different things or assuming the worst.
I honestly don't envy BHVR when they have to comb over some of these suggestions when they decide on changes.
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Does it matter if the killer is experienced? They lost 4 gens for 2 hooks. This doesn't mean that they are inexperienced. There are a lot of factors in dbd that can lead to both sides losing without playing particularly bad.
As killer, it can already be a certain map, good items and good survivor perks.
As survivor it can be soloq teammates and a tunneling killer on a bad map.
Even if the killer is experienced, I dont think the Gen should be finished in their face. It's basicly putting the nail in the coffin and saying: "We don't care about your experience. We just want to win."
2 -
You have no idea the insane gap of skill between pub strong teams, scrim teams and comp teams.
Take it from someone who has played against all three. Good pub teams are legitimately ass compared to comp teams. They shouldn't even be compared because they're playing fundamentally different games.
You cannot use comp matches to balance pubs. Absolutely horrific idea.
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In some cases, it it necessary.
Proof me wrong.
3 -
If you are worse than your opponents due to poor matchmaking, tunneling is necessary.
If you are looking for an easy match, tunneling is necessary.
If you are looking to ruin one person's match in particular, tunneling is necessary.
I will allow these concessions. I feel they are legitimate.
6 -
Friend, this is not the best Argumentation and you know it.
What I personally see as "gen-tunneling" is basicly finishing it with the killer standing 2 feet away from you. If someone is getting chased right next to the Gen, why not do this Gen right next to the killer to make them sweat a little harder. The killer had 2 hooks for 4 gens done? Let's just finish the 5th in their face. That's what's complained about. Is this doing the objective? Yes. Is it also basicly saying: "we don't care about your experience at all? Just want to win?" Yes.
Anything else i personally don't see as gen-tunneling but these are UNFUN strategies for the killer that happen more often that you like.
Tunneling and camping are in the game. They are in the game for now over 7 years. Why? Because as @MrPenguin said, it's designed with it in mind. "Fixing" tunneling entirely means giving the survivor literal god mode or making the killer player a bot. Both are not good. I didn't know that insta gen BNPs are still around. Seems like they broke the game and got nerfed. I'm the last guy encouraging tunneling, but it is a necessary evil that sometimes has to come into play.
That is what @MrPenguin meant as far as I see it. Both sides can do stuff that is extremely unfun for the other side. However, it's more frowned upon when the killer side does it for a good reason. Tunneling destroys a lot of interaction, the game normally provides. Everyone gets less points, less chases, less heals and in the worst case scenario less points.
When did anybody say that the game is way too fast for them? Did I miss it? For this I'm going back to my statement from earlier. If the killer has 2 hooks and 4 gens are done without them making huge mistakes, should the 5th be done in their face? No match should only last 4-5 minutes. Not initiated from the survivors or killer doing side. Currently, that's absolutely possible. Slugging Nurse against soloq / voice comms swf against casual Doctor.
If you truly want to tackle tunneling, I suggested to make a version of ds basekit with a ton of HEALTHY requirements that mean, that it ONLY works to counter tunneling and nothing else.
But maybe there should also be a mechanic to encourage killers not to tunnel. Maybe a BBQ stacking effect for BP could be a solution.
Tunneling is a problem, but not as one dimensional as you make it seem like.
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But killers are not the sole arbiter. Survivors are also deciding slamming gens is also "necessary to win".
No, survivors didn't. BHVR did. Doing gens is required for survivors to win.
And that is where the bar is at right now. That's why the term 'genrush' got left behind in favour of 'slamming' and 'tunnelling' gens. Because 'doing gens' doesn't build up the same antipathy. But that IS what this is about: Survivors -doing- gens. They -can't- go any slower without it qualifying for a 'helping the killer' report.
And again, when it comes to doing gens, it's BHVR that set that requirement, not the survivors.
However if you want to nerf killers by removing or hindering their tunneling abilities, then for the sake of balance you should do the same to the other side.
And we've had many nerfs to the other side and tunnelling is still kept as the holy grail. No matter what way the balance shifts, tunnelling will always be beyond the next wave of nerfs.
So no, tunnelling needs to go first this time.
Besides, as mentioned, you don't know what the balance is at, as long as tunnelling is mucking it up.
It sounds like you want a shift in the balance philosophy and/or state where tunneling is no longer the thing we balance around. Which if that's true on that I can agree. We should stop tunneling. We just need to do so in a way that doesn't bork over the entire balance.
This entire song and dance has been done like six times already.
Tunnelling can go first this time.
This is kind of the point though. You can have perfectly fair matches without tunnelling. So what right does it have to stay in the game when it's damaging the gameplay?
Also, tunnelling being the optimal way to play is a fair statement, but the problem is that it's not being pitted against playing optimally on the other side. You're not arguing to leverage tunnelling against BNPs, big toolboxes and Hyperfocus, but against survivors doing gens at all.
What I personally see as "gen-tunneling" is basicly finishing it with the killer standing 2 feet away from you. If someone is getting chased right next to the Gen, why not do this Gen right next to the killer to make them sweat a little harder. The killer had 2 hooks for 4 gens done? Let's just finish the 5th in their face. That's what's complained about. Is this doing the objective? Yes. Is it also basicly saying: "we don't care about your experience at all? Just want to win?" Yes.
You're still just talking about survivors -doing- gens. At this point you're just holding your hand out and begging for free wins. This is not a balancing benchmark.
You have to keep in mind as well that killers can regress survivor objectives, but the other way around is not possible. Letting go of that gen can lead to a PGTW stripping off a huge chunk of progress, buying the killer potentially minutes, especially if it's the last gen. This could easily spiral into a win for the killer simply because the survivor wasn't allowed to do their objective.
Which is what this is: Survivors shouldn't be allowed to do their objective.
Keep in mind that 'game goes too fast' is also dependent on the killer's skill, so there's always going to be folks that will insist that tunnelling is 'necessary'. Because this 'necessity' is also facilitated by incompetence. A bad killer will find it 'necessary' to tunnel far more than a good killer. This whole line of argumentation about how fair or necessary tunnelling is, is therefor never going to end. It's just going to keep dropping the bar.
That's why it needs to be gone. It's being used as a beatstick.
When did anybody say that the game is way too fast for them? Did I miss it? For this I'm going back to my statement from earlier. If the killer has 2 hooks and 4 gens are done without them making huge mistakes, should the 5th be done in their face?
5th gen is not 'all survivors teleport off the hook and into the exit gate'. It's not the end of the game. You still have a ways to go and you can still win. You'll likely still nab a kill, since someone sat on gen until you were right on them, so you only have half a chase left before they go up on the hook, and then it's a clash of skill to see if they can get a rescue without trading.
Conversely, if a survivor dies with more than a gen or two left, there's effectively no way to win for the survivors, barring severe killer incompetence. The game's over then and there, with one player having only done chases and three others having held M1 on gens most of that time.
5 -
All this talk of tunneling having to go for balance in the game is nice and all but at the end of the day everyone still has to default to BHVR’s stance on it.
If BHVR really wanted, they could make tunneling a reportable offense, they could code the game such that if the Killer hooks the same Survivor again consecutively and said Survivor did not perform any Conspicuous actions from the time they are unhooked till the time they get hooked a second time, the game ends and the Killer gets a 90 day ban.
Instead basekit BT and a few anti tunneling perks make up their overall response.
Clearly the devs don’t share the sentiment or have reservations about tunneling being completely removed. Until that sentiment changes, threads like this are still going to pop up.
What the devs have been slowly doing is eradicating certain playstyles, which ironically is going to push Killers into more tunneling and proxy camping.
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