Which anti loop abilities do you think have good design with strength, knowledge, and fairness?
While it is important to realize that behavior has overdone this and created some really awfully designed killers in this regard when trying to make anti loop powers or give some anti-loop, I think it's important to see which are good and to stick with that. While there is the classic case of Demogorgon having good anti-loop, I consider Slinger's to be fun to face and ever since the nerf it is fair on the survivor end, but either some of Warden's Keys (reload speed) or Tin Oil Can (missed shot cooldown) should be base kit to make it less punishing for cool shots and make him better to play. And I find Pyramid Head to have a fair anti-loop with pallet mind games being enjoyable. And in my opinion after Pyramid Head is when the anti-loop became a overdone and more flimsy and poorly balanced.
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Oni, Billy, Nemesis, Huntress, Bubba, Wesker and Pyramid Head come to mind. Even Doctor (although that might be more controversial).
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Edit:
I just realized how tricky this question can be, because it depends o one's definition of an anti-loop killer. Pig and Freddy both have abilities that can be used on loops, but haven't been mentioned here. Though that could be because Pig's dash isn't something you see being used by every Pig you go against and Freddy's Dream Snares / Pallets are both boring.
Killers like Huntress, Hillbilly and Leatherface immediately come to mind as good examples. It is on killers like Nemesis, Artist and Xeno that it gets bad.
Post edited by GeneralV on0 -
How long do you have? I could go on for a while about this. But I'll keep it short-ish.
I think Demo is well designed because it's not a super high risk shot. You don't lose a ton if you miss and it's not that easy to dodge. But there things a survivor can do with their pathing to deny or mitigate. It's a good power.
Nemesis is another well-designed one to me. Yes, it takes 3 hits, but I find that the initial infection hit is usually a hit that I couldn't get via M1 anyway. It's not a total loss.
Wesker is possibly the best designed killer in the game. And I think basekit Blight is great too.
I think PH and Xeno are too punishing on misses. It leads to boring playstyles. The kit should encourage players to go for the skillful shots, not discourage it. It's why I also really disagreed with the direction they went on Chucky. It's a super long cooldown and a hard capped flick. Players are just going to do the most brainless thing in that case: scamper under pallet>M1.
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Deathslinger post-ADS nerf and Doctor
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Killers who so happen to have anti-loop but are not anti-loop killers themselves usually have the most interactive forms of anti-loop. Wraith, Billy, Huntress, Bubba, Demogorgon, Oni, Blight, and Wesker all come to mind in this case.
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That awkward moment when Pig's antiloop is so bad that it's not even mentioned.
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It's also severely underrated. I score ambush hits at loops all the time. It's usually a 50/50 but that's better than a guaranteed no hit and eating a pallet anyway.
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Pyramid head
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Just kinda thinking out loud and brain dumping...
Reading this I kind realise why the "unfair" anti loop killers exist. Doesn't your point here kinda highlight the issue that 50/50s are bad for the killer?
Like how many attempts do you get back to back between running to each loop for your attempts? Every failed 50/50 is another at 10 seconds at least you have to chase to get another shot. If you take more than 45s in chase, you're now in a severe time problem, and you only need to fail a 50/50 3 times to be in the problem.
The high skill anti loops killers have a much better than 50/50 chance, but, their execution has to be on point. That's the trade off...
So if you make a killer with a less skill dependant power... how do you make it at all viable without making the killer garbage?
E.g. How would you make Artist more skill dependent instead of being able to close off loops by just plonking a crow there? The fact she can't pull up and throw quickly like Huntress, and she can't immediately wound at range is what makes her different and weaker... but tbe fact she can lock a loop is the compensation.
You could make her so that she MUST swarm survivors first (have 1 good hit with the cooldown low enough to get more crows up) and the follow up with the shotgun afterwards... but she's be a pretty trash killer doing that.
Post edited by UndeddJester on1 -
And greater than 50/50 is fair for the survivor? There's a reason why Dredge and Artist are considered boring. It's because if you stay at the loop you're guaranteed to get hit. 50/50's are how this game works, how every non-antiloop killer plays a mindgame at a non-pallet loop. Pig gets a similar mechanic she can play at pallets too.
Every failed 50/50 with pig might be extra seconds, but it's the same extra seconds it would take anyway if you didn't use your power, circling that loop over and over, eating the pallet, and moving on. The 50/50 is a bonus 50% chance to cut the chase short.
You're talking about 'trash' killers but there isn't a single killer with a poor kill rate...
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It's really not. It's about a 100% miss if the survivor takes that opportunity to simply leave the loop as soon as you try it.
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Can you tell that to all the survivors I hit with it?
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I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I believe that knight has the best designed anti loop, excluding bugs.
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Anti-loop....
Good ones-
Clown: Has to know when and where to throw his bottles (and when to switch bottles)
Demo: His Anti-loop is an extended lunge
Bubba: His Chainsaw one shots Survivors and that is enough (at least IMO)
Doctor: His Power stops Survivors from Vaulting or Dropping a Pallet for 3 seconds
Artist: Her power is more on information until you get a Survivor with Crows in range
Most other ones are either bad or in the middle
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I've gotten plenty of hits too from people who try to stay at the loop. You have to sound out a survivor to see which one they are. If I'm at a car loop for example, I lose sight of a survivor once I crouch due to being lower and will only know if they left the loop or not once I'm mid dash. If they didn't, I MIGHT get a hit or at least a pallet. If they DID leave the loop, I won't get a hit OR a pallet. This is a case of survivors knowing the correct move against a Pig trying to dash.
Ultimately there's a handful of structures where the dash comes in handy such as the tractors on coldwind farm maps, but survivors leaving the loop when they see you crouch and hear you roar is a pretty hard counter for basically the other 95% of loops in the game.
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To be fair, I don't even consider a power to be anti-loop if it requires the survivor to make to make a series of poor decisions to land a hit. The survivor has to let Pig control the pallet and then also stay at the loop when she crouches. There's zero anti-loop if the survivor stands at the pallet and waits or drops the pallet.
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Huntress has probably the best designed anti loop in the game. Strong but still allows skill expression from both sides, meaning the better player will win the loop
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"I have seen a nurse fail all of their blinks so nurse is easy to beat" thats how this post sounds. The fact that you have played against people that are so bad they get hit by pigs ambush does not make ambush useful as any good survivor will not get hit by that unless they are in a deadzone.
Aldo each failed ambush should not result in some extra seconds if thr survivor is a good looper, it should result in at minimum 40 seconds before the next hit, however and this is related to your point about trash killers not existing, there will always be bad survivors. So even if you are playing trapless trapper there are some survivors that are so bad they will go down in main buildings against a no power m1, so taking into account the average player is awfull at the game no killer should ever get a low killrate.
However this does not mean that those killers are good as good players, for example comp survivors show how easy it is to take away their agency due to their powers being lackluster.
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Demogorgons Jump is in my opinion extremely strong and fair. Same goes for pyramid head.
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If only Demo's shred could do damage from cliffs and such. It's pretty neat to shred off a 2nd story and get far distance, but it's disappointing knowing it has a 0% chance of doing damage, even if the survivor is in place.
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It's funny how many people mentioned Pyramid Head, when his power is the most non-interactive power in the game. Want to drop pallet? Do it and get a hit, or just run through and... get a hit. Want to jump in the window? Do it and get a hit, or fake it and... get a hit. Because i'm patient with him.
I think this is because many people meet mostly PH players who try to make random shots with his ability and isn't patient enough with him.
I think Blight and Wesker are the best design in the game. Both have insanely high skill ceiling and with pretty fair room for counterplay for survivors. That's why i love to play as and against them, unless it's tunneling Wesker with -8% crutch.
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Often has to do with how well a survivor positions themselves and recognize which loops are a good option. I’ve noticed that many survivors will decide to run certain loops which just aren’t gonna work out for them.
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It really just depends on how the killer plays Pyramid Head. A good Pyramid Head that tries to go for more experimental shots (and does end up getting impressive ones) is fun to go against because of the potential to outplay his Rites of Judgement outside of an animation lock such as pallet dropping or vaulting. It all comes down to that crunch you feel upon dodging that ranged attack.
The patient Pyramid Head playstyle is not fun to go against because you vault a window and get hit by his rites of judgement, or you don't and you get M1'd. All Pyramid Heads will do that obviously, but skilled Pyramid Heads willing to try out crazier shots at times are pretty interesting and interactive.
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I mean, I was operating on the idea that no... a continuous chain of 50/50s is not fair on the killer, considering the Killer has to win multiple times in a pretty short time frame to exert solid pressure. It only takes maybe 2 or 3 lost exchanges and the killer starts to fall quite far behind.
I would hardly say that Wesker, basekit Blight or Huntress hatchets at loops are 50/50s... yet they are lorded as some of the best designed killers in the game. Despite it not being a 50/50, they are liked, so my conclusion is the limiting factor is skill.
So I was merely exploring the idea that a lot of the more disliked killers were not 50/50 either, but disliked because the skill required was much lower.
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pre-nerfed spirit, pre-nerfed, deathslinger, xeno, blight.
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You mean the invisible walls?
I hope Behavior removes them one day.
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Moondash go brrrrr......
In all things ambush I can provide the most insightful information!
At your service!
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No, I mean if you shred off a hill or something, you could land on a survivor and do 0 damage.
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That’s stupid
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