No Way Out & Remember Me are too powerful together
Alone these perks are overpowered enough as it is and both need to be changed. Using these 2 perks together is beyond overkill. If the killer has max tokens for both of these perks and you're the last survivor then its game over. Not only do you have to wait 60 seconds for No Way Out to deactivate (all the while letting the killer know exactly which exit gate you're at) but you then also have 24 extra seconds added onto the exit gate bar. This is just a huge slap in the face to survivors when we have to go up against this crap. These 2 perks should not even be allowed to be used together. Besides that, this build on the trapper gives him complete control over the end game. If he traps the exit gates you're done. You're already done from the perk combination but being able to trap the exit gate levers alongside these perks just gives the killer more reason to laugh at you. I had a trapper do this with this build and he didn't even bother trying to hook me knowing that there was no way I would get the exit gate open.
These perks give way too much power to the killer. They are problematic on their own and extremely problematic used together. No Way Out should not block both exit gate switches. It should also not notify the killer when you interact with the exit gate. That part alone gives the killer the match because once they see the notification of which gate you're at then there are only so many places they need to look to find you. These perks at the very least should scale based on how many survivors are alive once the exit gates are powered. If there is only 1 survivor left, neither of these perks should even activate. There is way too much imbalance in this game with certain perk combinations for killers that favor them completely in 1v1 situations. Survivors have nothing on the same level as this. Our perks for the most part are a joke compared to the power killers gain from sometimes even just 1 of their perks.
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End game perks are powerful because you need to spend the entire match without a functional perk. That's not problematic, that's forgoing power in the short term for power in the long term. Those perks have an activation requirement, they're not free.
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They are endgame perks. They should be strong since it only works at the very end of the game, not doing anything before that.
Killer perks should be stronger as killer has 4 perks while survivors can have 16 perks in overall.
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If your the last survivor, yes. Your game is over. But the killer spent two of their perks for this. That means, they played the entire game with only two perks until this point.
That's a fair trade if you ask me.
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They are too powerful and give too much reward for the killer. The activation requirement for both of these perks is also not that difficult to achieve. When 2 perks can prevent you from opening the exit gates entirely then they are overpowered. I cannot even think of a situation where the last survivor could even open an exit gate with these 2 perks active. That is not balance and it is not fair. Survivors have no incentive to try against this much power. Also, going the entire match without a functional perk is no excuse for this. Killers already have several overpowered perks that function more as an additional power than an added benefit. There should never be a situation where the last survivor is left with quite literally no way out. The power gap between survivors and killers in this game is too wide.
Survivors have nothing that gives them this level of power. There is no build a survivor can put together that gives them this much leverage or control in the end game as these 2 perks alone do They are too powerful together. Both of them need to be redesigned and until that happens these perks should not be allowed to be used together.
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That is not a fair trade. There is no trade. The killer wins because they selected 2 perks that basically guarantees them a 4k in the end game when 1 survivor is left. Are survivors forced to bring a key every single match? That is ridiculous.
Stronger, yes. Impossible to win against? Never. Having more perks on the survivor team doesn't balance the situation when survivors can't even communicate in the match what they have and better utilize perks together. Only with SWF are these situations better.
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These perks don't guarantee a 4K. Only in the past week I've gone against No Way Out twice and still survived with room to spare, so Remember Me wouldn't have made much difference.
In order to capitalise on these perks the killer still has to pressure survivors effectively and score downs. If all survivors have made it to end game then the killer likely hasn't been doing that all too well
It's true that if not all 4 survivors are alive at endgame it can be very difficult, and they're basically just "win more" perks at that point. But the same can be said for the likes of Adrenaline or Sole Survivor.
No Way Out can be worked around. You can still evade the killer, make your way to the other exit, and chances are the killer will still guard the one you touched first.
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3 people on your team are dead, the hatch has been closed, the EGC has begun. Unless it's a massive map with favourable exit placement, all that remains is a formality at that point. End game perks turn it from a 'you have a 95% chance of dying' thing to a 'you have a 99% chance of dying' thing in a 1v1 scenario. The power it exerts on the game is minimal because the game is moments away from ending anyway.
Survivors have nothing comparable in power because they're not supposed to. It's an asymmetric game; individually, the many are not supposed to be comparable to the few. It's the driving force for the genre.
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As a retired survivor main I'd say no it's fine.
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The trade is, that they have to play the entire game before that with only two perks. That means, they are a lot weaker until that point where the two perks become active. That is where the survivors have the advantage. That's the trade. You have a weaker match until these perks become active. On top of that, both of these perks have to be built up. They are not as strong from the get go.
You make it seem like the end game is the entire match. This is not the case.
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If your issue is last 1v1, then it's not unique to those perk. Just Whispers is going to do same thing.
If 3/4 survivors are alive and you lost against No way out, Remember me, you probably simply didn't touch the gates and tried to go for save first etc. and that's just missplay on your end.
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Asking for more nerfs, endgame perks at that, after every gen-kick (even those that aren't made for regression) and/or regression perks (outside of Pop and Pain Res) and the best chase perk for weaker/M1 Killers were gutted is just baffling.
That combination of perks is basically only a victory if there's only one Survivor left and the Hatch was closed and both perks are at full power. Even with only one or without those perks there's almost no chance of escape unless the Survivor brought Sole Survivor & Wake up to vaporize the gates and the gates were far away from each other.
The Killer is essentially working with 2 perks during the rest of the game (most Killers can't really deal with good teams without a full build) and if even just 2 Survivors are left then it's still not a sure victory.
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I agree completely 💯
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Well, I guess its time to make hatch keys basekit for survivors then. Killers gain full control over the exit gates with these 2 perks if only 1 survivor is left. I will never accept the idea that if the killer eliminates 3 survivors they deserve a 4k handed to them. That is neither balanced nor fair.
Who said anything about an easy counter? Thats your words not mine. I'm simply asking for balance in a clearly unbalanced situation. I'm starting to understand why people complain about solo que so much. You get a dead weight team and then have to deal with a situation like this. There's a reason why people love SWF besides being able to play together with your friends. It does make avoiding these situations less likely to happen simply because of the communication difference.
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I guess the new 4k strat will be run these 2 perks and get 3k then close hatch and GG.
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The activation requirement for both of these perks is also not that difficult to achieve.
So hooking every survivor once at the same time you tunnel the obsession out using only 2 perks before the end game (potential DS, MoM and potential good player) is easy?
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When I say I think Adrenaline is too strong, survivor mains tell me it's an endgame perk, it's allowed to be strong, they spent the whole match without a functioning perk so it's okay.
But when killers have strong endgame perks, suddenly it's a problem.
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Run out of regression perks to complain about so the next is endgame perks?
The full time delay from Remember Me + NWO is less than Deadlock blocking 4 gens. NWO needs 4 unique hooks for the full duration, Remember Me requires hitting the Obsession 4 times + they cannot be touching the gates just to get the full time delay.
Since the Killer used two perk slots for this combo, that’s two less slots for early/mid game perks like Corrupt, Deadlock, Pain Res, Pop etc.
If your team only had 1/2 people left by the time the gates were powered, then your team probably wouldn’t have completed all 5 gens even if the Killer didnt bring endgame perks and brought slowdown perks
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Yes.
Let me know when survivors are given a perk that allows them to block all hooks for the killer for 60 seconds, then I will be Ok with Remember Me and NWO.
Post edited by KateMain86 on0 -
I've red the entire posts until now and the only thing i get from that is that you don't understand in what situation you are and that you already lost in a match were the killer only had 2 perks.
The killer killed 3 persons before you with only 2 perks and found the hatch first: So you lost your first chance as a team and your second as the last survivor.
For me that sounds like your team couldn't even hold up against a killer with only 2 perks, so you must have misplayed terribly or the killer is just better. At that point the win of the killer is deserved and the hatch is just the last thing for the survivors to get anything out of the match, and you didn't even get that because the killer found it first on a "fair" 50/50. So for me it sounds pretty "fair" if the killer wins like this, the other 2 perks hardly make any difference because you wouldn't able to open a door anyways if they are not terrible placed for the killer.
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This is still only a niche perk that does nothing 90% of the time in a match, since it is finally activated when the killer is almost certain to lose.
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stop crying, when the killers say the same thing about adrenaline and hope they make the excuse that it is only activated in endgame and they played with less perk during the game but when something from the killer that has requirements to use this strong they cry
To start, first you have to hit and hang all the survivors and you have to play with 2 less perk against 16 survivors perks , if you are the last survivor and they closed the hatch on you, the killer deserves his 4k, he did his job well, if you want him to be nerf that combo with pleasure but in exchange they have to nerf adrenaline, hope and that the exit doors cannot be at 99
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If 3 survivors die before the exit gates are powered, the game is already over for the last survivor. Their only chance is Hatch, or, if they are very, very lucky, an Exit Gate. The point is, when you're the last alive, and the Hatch is closed, its over either way unless you get lucky.
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If the Killer has eliminated three-quarters of your team with only two functional perks, has found the time to meet the activation cost of their end game perks and has closed the hatch, maybe it's time to accept that they probably did deserve the 4K at that point.
That is neither balanced nor fair.
Now I understand why so many people get exasperated at the game; there seems to be a fundamental lack of understanding over what the genre is and how it functions. They expect a match to be balanced and fair from a 1v1 perspective, yet fail to realise in an asymmetric game, that's inherently not possible. It's a 4v1 game, not a 1v1v1v1v1 game: the balance has to be built around the 1 vs the many as a whole, not individually. The balance actually is the inability to 1v1 in most scenarios. Accept it or not, it's not going away, nor can it.
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Others have already nailed it, but the other side of the same coin is Adrenaline and Hope, and unlike Killers who only have their perks to play with, survivors can take any mix of perks across the whole team and use their power accordingly. A killer with NWO and RM still has to contend with individual survivors who take gen rush, take meta exhaustion perks, take FTP+Buckle Up, etc, etc, whereas survivors can split their risk across the team.
It's not fun for killers to have 2 or 3 players suddenly pop a health and exhaustion state when the final generator gets popped either, it feels awful, but in order to have that, the whole team of Survivors have had to play the rest of the trial without a perk. What will usually happen instead is the players with Adrenaline/Hope will actively seek the killers attention to buy the time required for their team, and if you fail to identify/ignore the survivor who wants you to chase them, you're quite likely to eat it.
The feeling of No Way Out/Remember Me proccing is the same feeling as Adrenaline/Hope proccing on half the team, but for the killer is was a signficantly higher risk/investment to go for it comparatively.
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This feels very bias. I can't imagine anyone who plays survivor find themselves in this situation and come to the conclusion that this is fair or balanced. Its literally a helpless game over situation. You're punished for simply being the last survivor. These builds are insanely overpowered and unfair. I'm not asking for an easy counter. I'm asking for a chance to escape that doesn't involve a miracle on top of the killer going AFK.
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You want to know the difference between Adrenaline/Hope compared to Remember Me and NWO? You still die with Adrenaline/Hope if the killer is using those 2 perks. These arguments are without substance. I look at the situation and see that the reward the killer gets for using even 1 of these perks let alone both far outweighs anything survivors gain in the end game. Killers are given insane power buffs that do not feel like they are benefitting from a perk but rather given insane favor in the most critical part of the game. The only way to counter these 2 perks is to have more than 1 survivor alive when they activate and even still there are risks.
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You just explained in a nutshell why the solo survivor experience in this game is terrible and why so many people prefer SWF over it.
Adrenaline/Hope doesn't stop the killer from winning. I've been using adrenaline for 3 years in all of my builds and I'm pretty sure I've been eliminated far more times than I have escaped. I tried using Hope for awhile but dropped it when I realized I don't even make it to the end game often enough for the perk to even work. Having complete control over the exit gates is too much power. Imagine if survivors had the ability to block all hooks or disable the killer's power for prolonged periods of time. You would probably think thats very unfair and overpowered right? This is how survivors feel in this situation.
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You can be Ok with God power perks all you want, but I'm not. As I said, I can't imagine survivor mains being happy in this situation or feeling like its in any way fair. You and a handful of others may be the exception, but I don't believe your stance on this represents the overall survivor player base. Nothing is more unfun in a video game than being in a situation where you feel you have no chance to win.
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You want substance?
Neither NWO or RM are granted guaranteed. The killer needs to hook each survivor once, and needs to injure the obsession 4 times. They do this while basically not having 2 perk slots. No stacking gen regression, no combined info perks, no strong anti healing combos, you only have 2 slots for the rest of the trial. The killer is on a pretty harsh time limit to get both perks stacked up if the survivors are playing well.
Your contention that you're guaranteed to die is completely incorrect. That statement is an argument without substance. The killer can't tunnel you out if they want NWO and RM value, they have to spread hooks while also ensuring they kill the obsession. This can be denied by stealthy play, especially as far the obsession is concerned.
As long as you still have teammates alive and a hook state to hand (which you should vs. a killer missing 2 perks) your Hope and Adrenaline buys you at least 25 seconds even if you're bad at looping vs. majority of the roster, and 45 seconds to 1 minute if you're decent at looping, 10 seconds to get hooked, and your hook state buys you another 45 seconds before it comes to the crunch of being unhooked in time. The absolute maximum of the NWO and RM combo is 104 seconds. The math is not in favour of this combo being overpowered.
Yeah if you're in the 1vs1 you will likely lose here, but you and your team got smashed by a killer who is down 2 perks. If you don't get hatch, then at that point, you should lose unless you can find a key.
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hooking all 4 survivors while you try to tunnel one of them is not easy for more than half of the killers and pretty inconsistent because if the survivors play in a opressive way just eating those gens you´ll need to speedrun every chase, and the survivors can just hide after activating no way out, do you prefer a 30 seconds gate or corrupt + pain res + pop + dead mans?
Let me know when survivors are given a perk that allows them to block all hooks for the killer for 60 seconds
hook sabo?
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My issue with the perks is the amount of power they give the killer when their conditions are met. I know they are conditional, but the point I am making is the amount of power they grant the killer is way too much. This is why people complained about NOED so much and why they made changes to it. Survivors were sick of losing to a killer who gained insane power once the exit gates were powered all because a dull totem was left uncleansed. Survivors recognize situations where the killer's power difference jumps too far and makes the game feel entirely in the killer's favor.
Survivors have nothing on the same level as this. The perks we do have that could give us somewhat of an advantage are insanely conditional like Soul Guard. I tried using that perk for a few days and never once was able to get any use out of it. Why don't survivors have a perk that gives them the ability to block something accessible to the killer for a duration once their objective conditions are met? You could argue it would be too much power, but that is the same argument I'm making for these perks. The whole situation is not balanced. There are too many God tier killer perks and loadouts in this game that completely demoralize survivors. The only chance you have against many of them is a well coordinated and experienced SWF team. That is why so many people prefer SWF too. Solo que is far too risky to deal with these situations.
Hook sabo doesn't offer the same level of power as Remember Me and NWO. It also does nothing for the last survivor especially against these 2 perks.
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Do you think all of the people replying here are survivor mains? Do you think they are survivor mains who love being thrown into an unwinnable situation and find fun in that? Of course you don't see it here. The forums often feel largely visited by killer mains more often than survivor mains. This thread isn't a good place to get data on this. I'm sure if DBD did a survey asking survivors what they think about having to deal with situations like this a lot of them wouldn't be saying they like the odds.
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OK fair enough if you think they are too strong, but I would argue as a player who plays both sides and has been in the receiving end of both, if NWO and RM are too powerful, then Adrenaline and Hope are too powerful as well.
I've been able to play around NWO and RM well enough in my games. It's rare I've seen a game where NWO and RM specifically were the cause of beating me, instead of it being the result of already being in a losing the game. Similarly it's rarely been the cause of a winning game suddenly turning into a loss. The games I've been winning we were so far ahead that the perks weren't even a factor (due to the need to charge them up).
In the same way, as killer, Adrenaline and Hope have made an already losing situation even worse, but it is rare I have been able to point specifically to Adrenaline and Hope being the cause of my loss. Similarly they have rarely been the cause of a winning game becoming a loss, because usually I got a strong upper hand befire Adrenaline and Hope even became a factor.
You say the survivor perks aren't as impactful, but any strong survivor perk can be taken by all members of the survivor team. This means of course on a 1 to 1 level, survivors can't have perks with equivalent level of power as the killer perks, because there is 1 killer and 4 survivors. If all survivors can take a perk at killer strength, it's value is 4 times that of the killer perks. This is why perks like Decisive and DH were too strong. But this game isn't a 1vs1, it's a 4vs1, and 16 perks vs. 4.
I'm sure you can understand that 4 survivors all gaining a health state at end game and running away at 150% for 5 seconds is not small potatoes, it can completely erase whatever pressure the killers has in an instant, and basically near guarantee a 4 man out in that situation. Not differentat all to No Way Out and Remember Me helping the killer have a strong chance of securing an extra kill, maybe 2.
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hook sabos gives a lot of value, and it can you know, remove one hook from the map, if you take a hit the other survivor will not give him no way out, pain res, pop, any scourge, barbecue etc, can save you team mate
so NWO and RM are bad because the last survivor can´t escape even if he lost the hatch game?
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The difference between Noed and the NWO and RM is that Noed doesn't require you to do anything and the counterplay is RNG-based because you don't know which totem it is and where it is.
NWO and RM both require you to do something before having full power and the requirements are causing you to loose pressure in a game where you already only have 2 perks, besides that the counterplay is pretty clear: touch the gate as soon as possible and hide until NWO is gone, after that you can start to distract the killer and open the door.
Now you can argue that it's not possible to do the counterplay as the last survivor, but at that point you are highly unfavored anyways, your role is balanced around having 3 mates besides you but they are already dead.
I can't even understand why you think you would "win" (you lost anyways because you only got out because you opened the gate after everyone died and the hatch was closed), i'm no survivor-main, but your situation is basically doors open and survivors are not injured, its a situation where i lost anyways even if I get one out of luck.
Well the only nerf i could imagine they could make would be that those 2 perks don't activate after the hatch is closed. But I don't see a reason for them to do that honestly.
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End game is not the most critical part of the game. Whether the killer got a 3k or a 4k doesn't matter in terms of mmr.
The most critical part of the game is the early game. This is where the killer has to perform well or their game spirals downward really fast. This is also where 2 additional perk slots would really help.
If you lost against a killer with 2 perks, then yes. I think they deserve to let their perks do their work and give them the 4k. How many chances should the survivor role get?
The team lost the 1v4. The survivor didn't find hatch before the killer did. Then the killer has got 2 perks dedicated, that had to be built up, for this one specific scenario. I think that at some point the game shod be over. The killer can also lose extremely fast. 4 adrenaline in end game is almost gg by default if the survivors play smart. The killer probably loses at this point because they haven't got a survivor out before that happened / won before that happened.
I never thought I'd see complains about remember me, but here we are.
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I never thought I would see a day that someone complained about remember me being too powerful.
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Are we playing the same game?
Unless you are the last survivor those perks are far from op.
Or did you encounter me by any chance when I used the "No-Exit-Gate-Build" on Trapper a while ago?
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