Something has to change with Trickster
This killer has way too much chase control. Pallets do nothing to stop him. Running does nothing but slightly delay your down unless some kind of massive obstacle gets placed between you and this killer. He can spam throw knives so fast that you can't do anything to dodge them. Moving left or right while running does nothing. Do his knives even have fall off? It doesn't seem like it. This is yet another killer where their power far outweighs the use of their basic attack. Its way too much of a power advantage. The knives are thrown way too fast and you can do little to nothing to dodge them. I really do feel like the survivor experience is completely ignored when a new killer is being designed. This killer has been in the game for awhile now and never once have I been happy to play against them or enjoyed the match.
Either his knife throw needs to be greatly slowed or the amount of knives it takes to injure and down needs to be greatly increased. Either that or prevent the knives from being able to down survivors and only injure them.
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I think he needs more rebalancing for both sides. I can understand the frustrations of going against him but he still feels weak to play as.
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I figured people who play him feel pretty unstoppable because thats how I feel when I go against most tricksters. Its usually just the ones who don't use their power as often so I feel there needs to be some more balance there. Maybe its just an addon issue. I'm sure he has addons that make his power way better than default. Other killers have this problem too where their addons make it feel like they have a second power rather than a buffed power.
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This is all you @FreeKnives
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Moving left or right while running does nothing.
I doubt this. idd like you to go into a custom game vs bots as trickster, then post it to youtube and then there.
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I personally have not had any issues going up against him. I think he’s a little on the weak side personally.
He is in an awkward state right now until they correct it. Behavior already mentioned that they were going to fix him. His animations are off, his knife throwing speed is off, and they need to move his speed back to 4.4 and buff his knives allowing him to throw them faster to match his animation.
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I actually thought he was alright and really strong before the rework (I can‘t quite understand, why they buffed him).
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I’m not entirely sure to be honest, my friend, truthfully, I don’t play this killer hardly at all. I can only tell my experience based off as a survivor when I’ve gone against him.
before he was reworked, I could loop him for days, it was really easy. In his current state I can loop him for a little bit, but not nearly as long. (to be fair though I don’t use windows or any exhaustion perks. I’m a healer when I play Survivor.)
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Survivor movement in DBD doesn't really support the idea of dodging an attack like this. You'll have a few knives fly past you because the killer is spamming them, but from a distance this killer can still down you very fast. Moving left and right while running from this killer is not a viable dodge strategy.
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Agreed. You need to toy with his FOV, obstacles are a must.
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This killers 1v4 is trash, he can stick to one survivor but ultimately there's a bunch of research I've done into this killer and my results varied based on the survivor teams confidence in understanding which tiles were good against him.
Against teams knowledgeable against him and understood how to spread and respect the power, he gets 3 chases and then the game is no longer in his favor so he's forced to create a snowball or lose.
I hate his current design because it forces you to 1v1 every survivor and is impossible to create any spread pressure or do damage at range, his knives are way weaker mathematically than any previous version and his only saving grace is that you don't lose distance in chase anymore barring exhaustion perks. Lose lose from both sides in terms of fun and optimal play from survivors leads to trickster being forced to abandon his power and use his m1, which should never be ideal given that people pick up the killer in order to master the knives.
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Ultimately if two or three people on the team don't pre-run or find strong tiles somewhere in their chase (which I'd quantify as disrespecting Tricksters chase) then the team will likely accidentally group up creating a snowball, not understand his range of threat which was his previous defining charactaristic but now as he moves much faster that threat area moves across the map more frequently.
Huntress downs you WAY FASTER than trickster and has much stronger snowball pressure. Huntress is simply stronger in most circumstances but you know more clearly if you're in huntress danger zone because her terror radius within her lullaby is much smaller.
Pre-running against Trickster and in fact any ranged killer is simply mandatory and I'm lost as to what to tell people besides playing against optimal survivors as this killer makes shack and main buildings feel like they're unbeatable without bamboozle, and killer should never imo be forced to never chase some tiles. Massive oversight because it feels bad to play, and bad to play against across all levels of play.
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To add to this, Huntress doesn't have this same issue on Main Building and Shack as Trickster does, the reason being is because her value is guaranteed once landed- it cannot be snuffed out - You get the hatchet hit and you gained your value.
Meanwhile Trickster has to spend much longer in getting his value to come to fruition, often resulting in gameplay against good survivors requiring perfect play or they will burn your laceration meter out on strong loops alike these two I mentioned. Keep in mind this killer isn't like Legion, Dredge, Deathslinger, or any other killer because the power has 0 utility, its damage or nothing and the only feasible way that they make a design like this feel rewarding and impactful is if it's effective in the only value it can provide: dealing damage.
The only real comparison to be made on it is Huntress, and his range + spread pressure is supremely neutered comparatively, sad to say.
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Here's a video I made giving a breakdown of the power and optimal play against it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGk2CeYIKeM&t
With a lot of topics as complex as DBD counter-play I just like to clarify every point before making assumptions because the issue you're having could be soloq teammates, personal understanding of the power, or a heap of other variables of which I cannot grasp from a forum post, hope any of my comments helps and I'd be happy to provide more information, I play this killer nearly every day and obsess over the nuance, so please ask questions!
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My experience was completely different. Most times he was already really oppressive, but I can‘t tell how it was to play him, I only played him 3 times before the rework.
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Listen. I am sure that you really believe he is too powerful…I can assure you though the average Trickster is not and plenty counterable. I’ll go into detail later why, and it may even help you understand how to counter him and why this statement is so off and irresponsible to say “he needs to be changed because you cant counter him”, rather than making a forum to ask “how to counter him….”
I am a decent Trickster, and if you make mistakes, I will jump on them so fast, your head will spin, because I know my killer is not S tier, my aim is only decent, and if I don’t capitalize on your mistakes…it can cost me the entire match. And most people are running second chance perks anyway so I need to play for pressure at the start. But heres what you can do as a survivor that I guarantee you aren’t doing:
1. Using LOS breakers, 2. Watching your laceration meter 3. Understanding your killer's power 4. Looking behind you and infront of you. I’ll elaborate:
1. LOS Breakers.
Paying attention to whats around you. Someone designed that rock, that tile… that tree. And If you are not already in a bad position…look where trickster is, and then use Line of sight blockers in your path, in the direction of a safer area. Weave while you are doing it.
2. Watch your laceration meter.
BHVR made a hud to help you. If the Trickster is missing a lot, and they are on you, you’ll notice the meter is rising slower and you will hear the collision of the blades on impact of something (Hopefully behavior fixes Tricksters audio and sfx) and you might even hear Tricksters blades flying through the air, which will tell you hey hes missing, maybe I can make it to another tile. Or this area is safe to waste his time. If the laceration meter is going fast a few at a time and you don’t hear any misses…hes probably good with aim. Best thing to do if you are out of position is take him away, go down strategically, on a pallet or in an open area, hope for a save. If you are really good and you are about to turn a corner around something, dead hard the last knife.
3. Understanding your opponent.
Im guilty of this, though I don’t go on forums to call for nerfs… But I don’t know each killers power or how they work and it can cost matches because of that (my poor teammates). With Trickster…it takes 8 Knives to main event. So you need to pay attention to your lacerations, and count to 8. If they hit you or anyone around you accumulatively to 8 times…They have main event. You need to be at or near a tile….you can use your endurance but if you are out of position then you are going to go down. It doesn’t matter if its knives, a chainsaw, a dashing killer, if you are out of position you are going to go down. Period.
4. Looking behnd you and running in a straight line.
Look behind you to see which knife in which hand he is throwing, and weaving in a pattern that makes him miss. This will take practice, and skill to learn. Don’t expect to be an expert right away. But with the average Trickster it wont matter, try to make him miss as many knives as possible. Stop running in a straight line. You may go down anyway, cause not every Trickster is adamant about using the knives you hate so much….Trust. There are some Trickster players who are happy to go along with your idea of nerfs and make him more m1 style, and then…they will just bonk you with a bat, and you will have no chance. But most tricksters, you should be happy they have egos about using knives….because you could be in their face weaving and they will actually spend 30 seconds to 1 minute to try and practice using knives. So be happy about the knives. I am one of those to a point. Unless Im already behind on hook stages, then practice with knives starts to become less priority and after the match I feel bad because I didn’t use my knives mostly.
Anyway. Those are my tips.
I do run into survivors like you on occasion and they say the similar things. They either DC, stand by hook, or quit at the very first down.....they come into my chat and say "sorry, I hate this killer, or this killer should be deleted, or shame me for enjoying this killer" Sometimes they are nice and just say I just dont like the killer but gg lol. Not saying you've done that but its in the same family of reasoning...because they dont know how to counter or dont want to learn.
If you are willing to learn, and practice, you can counter this killer like any other. Not everyone is going to figure things out on their own. Thats okay. Thats why there are thousands of "how to loop" videos and hundreds of survivor streamers. So I am more than willing to help you.
But it is so incredibly frustrating to hear survivors say things like “change Trickster, nerf Trickster” when our weaknesses are right there in front of them, and good survivors already have it figured out and use it effectively in our pub matches. It's even more frustrating when Devs listen to people who haven't learned the counter play or listen to content creators who just hate this character flat out, and want to see them out the game or nerfed to the ground.
Trickster is high C tier, maybe A in 2 hands, S in only 1 persons hands that you probably will never meet, that I know of (thousands of hours on him). I'd say hes weaker where he was weak before and stronger in some areas than before, so it kind of makes him more or less the same rank. His power has changed to make him friendlier to use though to whom BHVR was targeting I'm not sure. Which took some of the things we enjoyed away but also some of the frustrations away. But he still thankfully takes skill to master. He also thankfully takes unique ways of thinking to go against. He is hella fun to go against when you know what not to do. Very intense matches, that are not the usual m1 killer gameplay, but fun no less. I go against more Tricksters than most of the survivors who say hes “too powerful” do. And I play Leon, so you know Im not that great of a survivor (no offense to fellow Leons).
I also am willing to take you into a custom and teach you how to counter this killer. But making a post like this that reads as:
"I dont know how to counter this killer so, therefore, he needs a nerf or gutted" is just…something else.
And thats really unfair to all the Trickster mains who have painstakingly taken the time to learn him despite him being a C tier killer. Especially with Trickster being in a situation where the Devs are missing the mark on killer adjustments, because they are taking complaints like this at face value.
Bottom line is…. The reason you feel he is too strong is because he shoots more than one projectile. It takes 16 knives to down someone. Not one hatchet, not one spear attached to a chain that leads to an m1, not one dash into you….16 KNIVES! Trust me, that’s a lot, for the average Trickster. Have you tried him? Playing him might help you learn how to counter honestly.
You feel the pressure of “gotta do something, lacerations are building…OMG im going to go down, what do I do!” and think…hes not counterable because you inevitably did go down 16 knives later….when that actually buys you time…having to throw multiple projectiles…. buys YOUR team TIME. 16 knives per person, 4 times, and then if they have second chance or endurance perks… Hello he has 44 knives…..Making Main Event(ME) crucial to using him. And even his ME has a long cooldown that gives you another chance to make it to that rock, object or tile. IF he was out of knives when he started ME guess what he has to reload. BUYING MORE TIME.
The point of looping any killer is buying TIME. So in essence, Trickster is inherently weaker and more counterable now BY USING HIS KNIVES. Making him inherently weaker than say Huntress, and yet where are the forums to demand her nerf?
So making him fun, challenging, and strong enough for Trickster mains to play him, is what keeps us playing him….If you take the things mains love about this character away…like value and reward in throwing knives…..the character dies. I don’t want to be an m1 killer….I love throwing knives. I would rather throw knives even if it costs the match (sometimes it does).
Forgive me…but your post is so inconsiderate because it doesn’t take into account the whole picture and you haven’t taken the time to understand your opponent either. The reason you don’t like going against Trickster, as it would seem, is Tricksters knives, basically the heart and soul of the character. BUt really its about the knives pressure on you. That is what Trickster is all about…gradual pressure. With other killers once they hit you its over. No pressure, no need to fight for survival accept your fate, maybe it wasn’t your fault maybe you got sandbagged. But usually you messed up and you are down, quick and simple is the m1 one way. With Trickster you don’t go down immediately and have to buy your team time, you have to think about where you are, and what you are doing, taking more focus. With Trickster everybody on that team needs to pull their weight and keep him busy if he finds you, even if its just 5 seconds, that’s good enough, eventually it will be more, and it adds up. Personally, I find that so fun and unique, and each time I go against a Trickster I learn a little more and last a little more. Sometimes I outrun them altogether. Trickster is so unique I actually am a little surprised that BHVR came up with him. It causes me to pause actually at how creative this killer is.
I don’t know half the roster of killers power, or understand them. I hate going against Knight and Clown, because I feel I cant do anything, but I would NEVER make a post on a forum asking BHVR to gut them, change them, or nerf them…because I know I don’t know how to counter them and that’s on me.
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I hate these forums. It always deletes what I say if I go into edit mode.
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It didn’t delete anything? I still see your original post.
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That’s fair to say
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This is true for newer Trickster mains, and can be true for controller or console Tricksters...I would be wary of suggesting it to people, because you wont always be able to tell if someone is on controller or how new they are. I know 1 Trickster main on controller you cant even tell hes not on MnK. Hes that good. And even with me...I will just back up and continue throwing knives at you, and if I dont feel like practicing with knives, I'll bonk you with a bat. So if you are stuck and in a dead zone or caught in the open, definitely do this. Mess with FOV, but dont forget we have shadowborn baskit now.... And I see this all the time and laugh, DO NOT run back into a Trickster trying to mess with FOV if you could have made it to an LOS blocker, or tile. Even if you take the injure getting to an LOS blocker or tile, thats better to be injured in a tile, than in the open in Tricksters Face healthy. LOL
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This is also true, what Mech said here. Mech used to loop me for days in custom matches when I was learning or when I was 4.4 Trickster. I've given tips to Mech for looping new trickster that has helped him too.
Actually Mech is quite familiar with versing Tricksters as he is friends with 3 Trickster Mains and would have to suffer 3 Trickster matches back to back in our customs all the time :). We would lose a lot actually.
We still do these matches on occasion. I still hold Trickster custom matches to help people learn how to play Trickster in a controlled environment, I know Endzej does on occasion. You could look either of us up on Twitch. Revvium who has also posted here would be happy to go over Trickster counterplay, hes also on Twitch. So even if you just wanted to learn how to verse a Trickster you could just play survivor in one of those custom matches, or go and find Trickster main on Twitch and talk to them, ask them questions. Here's a list of some that will be very knowledgeable on this character and have broken down this character into a science: Wacek134, Ayano_hm, Endzej, Revvium, Littleruguaard, Knifyyy36, Geugjigo
The answer isn't nerf, its better understanding.
(Which is why Im baffled by no updates or optimization for custom lobbies, they are so useful....)
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If you are out of position for any long-range killer with decent aim, you are going to go down. Does that mean they should be nerfed?
Can you say without a doubt, there was nothing you could have done better?
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I mean that’s fair, but it’s the only tactic that seems to work for me just fine lol.
I understand it won’t work for everyone it’s not gonna work for every trickster based upon their skill level but it’s likely something that Kate hasn’t tried and it may help her a little bit, let’s be honest weaving back-and-forth left to right like on Fortnite is not gonna cut it lol.
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Nothing was deleted, as noted above.
We do have a Spam Filter on the Forum that will often catch messages from newer members, those with lower post counts, or those that make frequent edits. When these occur, we have to permit them manually until the user has a certain amount of posts, and they won't have to worry about the Spam Filter catching things after that.
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It did get deleted the first time. Unfortunately when you go to edit, if you didn't copy the entire thing before hitting save comment, the whole thing can get deleted. Its happen to others in another forum as well. They had to retype everything from memory. So I learned to save the whole thing before hitting save comment just incase. I posted it again, and got a mismatch error, and it wouldn't post, so I attempted again, and then thats when the spam filter activates. Which is where you came in.
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Definitely, if you are out of position, definitely try, it may work. I just dont want survivors to choose run into the killer rather than taking the injure and get to a safe tile if they are in a bad spot. I see so many survivors do that and I end up scratching my head like, what just happened. Makes for good content though....
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Its cause I have been burned before by editing my posts LOL
I just copied and pasted it when it deleted. The problem is trying to post it the second time, it gives an error and then the third attempt get flagged by spam filter.
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The problem I see and have with so many of the killer's we've gotten in the past year or so is that they aren't fun to engage with. When a killer can spam their power endlessly and down you with it especially at range then that isn't going to be a very fun experience. Survivors should have engagements with killers that involve more than just running to the nearest wall to block the killer's power for a moment. Lately its just overtuned killers that turn survivor chases into a slaughterfest.
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Trickster is still a B- tier killer. https://youtu.be/28Pgh-K2NjE?t=68
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Do they really complain about him? He's in a good position but he's still weak. Just learn to play against moving from side to side. It still works but it seems like you don't know how to do it. Also, if you want him not to hit you, play in high loops in 80 percent of the maps. He has these structures
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Yeah. I would argue C+ in most Tricksters hands, but hes not close to A or S tier by any means. Maybe he should be... Hes too complicated to not be strong enough to go against people who are skillful survivors. If that makes sense. I dont care if he is S tier or C tier. I just care about whether or not he is fun to use and the experience I have with using his main event and power. I enjoyed playing him even as 4.4 Trickster. I just enjoy this character. So I really hope they focus on this characters feel and flair, and how it feels to use his knives and the reward for using them. Lets be honest, you dont pick maining Trickster if all you care about is winning. You'd pick learning Nurse or Blight if you did.
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Yeah, Revvium gave them a video of a good example. Im even offering to take them into a custom.
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Throwing around the word spam is becoming quite the popular buzzword, not just from you. And to be honest I doubt we agree on what spam is...Maybe baby Tricksters. Maybe you are in low mmr. Im not sure. I know some Tricksters that haven't gotten good with aiming will spam....but they run out of knives quickly and good survivors make fools of them. Ive watched a very good Huntress main and content creator miss 20 or more knives on one survivor.... Some survivors consider Main Event spamming, not even realizing that is his special power. It's his "Chainsaw" or his "rush", and it takes some skill to know when to pop it now because it's so short. Again, good survivors know how to make a Trickster waste it. Did you watch the video Revvium posted? Showcasing a Trickster main partied with other good survivors and a good random, going against a good Trickster. I encourage you to do so if you haven't. And thats on EU where everything is supposedly more sweatier.
I am going to try and have Trickster community customs night on Twitch, if there is enough people. On Saturday. I welcome anyone including people who just want to play survivor to join. If you want to join, again offer still stands to help you learn to counter him. Learn about Trickster. Or even try him yourself.
I understand that in your opinion this killer, and apparently, Billy too (you mentioned him in another forum) aren't fun. Im telling you...nerfing killers is what causes them to feel powerless to play with anything other than meta, use unfun tactics to win, and make them robotic and unfun to main. It doesn't help to nerf killers when survivors can't figure out how to counter them. What could help survivors is better indicators and Trickster's audio fixed, including his laceration lines on the survivor hud, but thats in another forum. Ive addressed that in a Tricksters Forum and bug report, maybe BHVR will take a look.
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Have you decided on the time yet?
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Hopefully.... 3 pm EST. If everything works out. But it will probably go on throughout the night, cause usually we have to have a queue line for joining when all the Trickster mains I know are present, and I want everybody to get a chance to practice Trickster or go against him. Im starting early so that EU people can join if they want to.
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Can I pm you so that I get updated?
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Easily one of the most annoying to play against
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Yes of course! Unfortunately, we have to move Trickster customs to next weekend. Hopefully, more people can join that way anyway with more notice. I'll update it in my Twitch schedule as well, but feel free to pm.
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