The Onryo Feedback
Comments
-
Completely agree with you and hope BHVR will address this.
This is also why I've been strongly advocating that when survivors are holding a VHS tape, they should not be able to see TV auras other than their assigned tape drop off TV . This would make them have more pressure to do the tape rather than sit on it; it would also make it harder for a survivor to systematically turn off all the TVs to deny condemn and mobility. The requirement of it only being once they hold a tape will also still allow newer players and players in general find that first TV with a aura to stop condemn and help them figure out the counter. Its a good compromise solution I feel.
Condemned is dead in the water if survivors realize this.
The worst part is that a lot of the survivors I question in the post game chat are either unaware of the basics of her new power and some not even realizing that she was changed. In a couple of weeks to a month once many survivors start to learn how her new power actually works, this issue will get much worse.
2 -
The reason for reworking and adding CD after PTB is that dev don't want Onryo teleport frequently for condemned and chase survivor normally.
The PTB version allows Onryo to teleport into "wrong" TV frequently to have condemned stack, so the rework is meaningless if they maintain original PTB version.
However, Onryo would still teleport frequently as long as she need to gain condemned via teleporting.
So it is not a good game design actually.
1 -
If the devs really want to give her a cooldown every teleport then she should at least allow her to condemn to the tv she teleported at the very least, that’s just hoping though
1 -
Completely agree 💯
1 -
I've been playing her a lot since last week and it's just disappointing and sad to see what they've done to her.
Survivors are so cocky and confident against her now because she basically poses zero threat - tapes get put away in your face, TVs all get turned off denying your power, everyone carries tapes because there's very little risk involved, very little to help in chase, the visual heartbeat so being demanifested is useless. Overall, it's just a miserable playing experience and I can understand why players turn to killers like Blight, Wesker, Billy (now) and Nurse instead for a fair game.
1 -
God forbid Survivors actually interact with the killer's power. Like the counterplay to her telepott spamming is just to turn off the TV next to you. They already light it up. It's impossible to miss. So why nerf the killer because Survivors are too lazy to do what they need to in order to not die?
3 -
@radiantHero23 @Skitten56 @MechWarrior3
(and everyone here lol)
I don't know if any of you saw Peanits' comment on the discord. I'm sure they'll announce it here soon as well. But I think many of us will be rejoicing :)
1 -
I’m very excited 😊
0 -
I still hope they do a bit more like adjusting addons, the tv auras and tapes to have a bit of a downside.
Overall good changes!
2 -
I saw it and am very excited for these additional changes. I do hope they have more unannounced changes though. There are a few add-ons that absolutely need to be looked at. Particularly Rickety Pinwheel, Sea-Soaked Cloth, and VCR which have practically no purpose within the framework of this new rework.
0 -
Question, are they not taking any of our feedback into consideration regarding add-ons?
Or are the changes above just a rough draft?
I sincerely hope they are going to look at her add-ons again. We put a lot of work into the feedback for those, and a lot of her add-ons do you need help.
3 -
Please Peanits make tape animations at least 2 seconds that all I ask for. It's miserable defending your TVs for them to do it mid chase
1 -
Great, one of the biggest mistakes of the 7.5.0 update is going to be addressed thanks to feedback.
Hopefully the other 3 big mistakes of the update are also looked at, at some point.
2 -
Could you make reikos watch 50% again please and make her time she is visible shorter or increase the frequency she is invisible.
Maybe even make her longer invisible like 1,5s and then leave reikos watch with 25%.
1 -
What was posted???
Please dont let me in the dark!
0 -
My understanding is that Reiko's Watch is like the original Reiko's Watch again. Rather than 50%, they made the add-on 25% and then took the other 25% and made it basekit. So if anything the add-on is better since we got an important basekit effect. Someone can correct me if I am wrong though.
0 -
It appears the coming changes will be the following:
- Condemn teleport cooldown will be removed
- Increased the number of condemn stacks that can be locked to 3 (was 2)
- Increased Projection movement speed duration to 2 seconds (was 1.5)
- Increased movement speed while Manifesting to 4 m/s (was 3.68)
I like the Manifest and Projection buffs. I think these will increase her chase power a bit and provide a nice QoL increase to those playing her. The condemn cooldown being removed is good if they don't plan to address her counterplay issues (which seems to be the case sadly). If BHVR did address these issues such as the TV auras and the 1s tape insert speeds, I would be okay with them keeping the cooldown.
Condemn Lock
I personally think they needed to make condemn lock in at 4 stacks to reward good condemn play. Especially given how much easier it is to remove and counter in this version.
If they don't make it 4 stacks I fear many Onryo players will just slug since hooking may not be worth it. At 3 stacks Onryo basically has to play a 3 hooks game while also spending extra time to build condemn, this could make condemn worse than traditional hooking for some and result in it just being a slowdown mechanic. Why should an Onryo player who wants to focus on condemn hook if hooking doesn't result in any advantages?
At 4 stacks however, there is an incentive to hook over slugging. A Onryo can lock in enough stacks to make the effort to build condemn and the effort to spend time picking up a survivor and hooking them worth it. This is critical if BHVR wants to avoid Onryo players slugging.
If they address the issues with her strong counterplay like TV auras and tape insert speeds, 3 stacks is perfectly fine, but without these changes though it should really be 4.
1 -
Yes and they should buff it more or at least leave the addon stronger to give us the ability to get higher than 1,5s. I think she should be less long visible that would be great.
Post edited by jonifire on0 -
Weighing in again after the comments from Discord. Upping the Condemn lock by one instead of removing it is eyerolling.
This still shakes out to the same big problem: Why do I care about getting Condemned stacks? Sadako sees no benefits from playing into her own central gimmick except the potential of getting early kills, which I’ve gathered is what the PTB nerfs and this stubborn adherence to the stack lock are designed to restrict.
But she can’t be balanced like that because giving people the deadly stink-eye is the core of her whole design, and when you pile limitations on her capabilities (as opposed to creating good counterplay), this is what causes her to be viewed as a mediocre or underperforming Killer.
Survivors have so many allowances and good tools to deal with her now: Limited range of Condemned infliction. TV auras. The ability to shut down her teleports. The sheer speed of tape insertion. The lack of any penalty for engaging with her counterplay.
Honestly, a limit doesn’t make sense in the slightest. @Skitten56’s suggestion of 4/7 max is at least not bad, but to reasonably get any more than that in a game where other survivors are also interacting with tapes, a Sadako player would have to be viciously tunnelling that specific Survivor to the detriment of her own chances at victory — which is not an issue that has anything to do with Sadako’s power balance, so why bother?
Limiting it to any extent that would have discernable impact on gameplay essentially turns Inexorable Stare into a less useful Final Judgment. At least with Pyramid Head they just have to run through the barbed wire and it’s a fun little thing instead of the crux of his power that he has to dedicate strategy and effort into achieving.
5 -
Agree and thx for clarifying. These are good changes. I do think however, that the 2 second insertion has to be reintroduced for the tapes to be a threat.
4 -
I wanna humbly offer my own take on these new changes. OBVIOUSLY these will have to be experimented with. It's much easier for me personally to theorycraft about the balance of condemned because that stuff really comes down to time vs gen progress in many cases. Chase buffs are harder to visualize...
HOWEVER, in my mind, this is a very very healthy change and a GREAT solution. This is even better than PTB in my mind!
Regards to hook lock-in: Locking in 3 stacks isn't perfect, I would have liked 4 or no limit too, but I suspect we might never win that argument. It means getting survivors to accept that she's a "buy-one-get-one" hook killer, and while I believe that's actually balanced and we Sadako mains understand that it could be balanced... I can't blame non-onryo mains for hating that idea lol. I also believe that 3 as a limit is a MUCH easier pill to swallow thanks to the chase buffs, which will actually help us get hooks and may even make 3-hooking survivors viable at a higher level of play, in some situations.
For the tape interaction, I am a fan of that being at 1 second. When it was 2, STBFL or sloppy butcher became an obligation, because why wouldn't you block someone fully from cleansing in your face? I hate being funneled into a certain build or playstyle, so removing it as a possibility kinda chilled me out in a way. The idea, it seems, is to prevent cleansing by hooking tape carriers and achieving lock in at least once, and now we have a chase power that can actually help us get hooks...
And this is where we get to the part where I'm not 100% confident in my theory, but 4m/s manifest speed SOUNDS nutty to me on paper. I've heard people call it minor, but in my mind that's actually a really really good buff I never expected. We now lose zero distance while manifesting. Combined with the increased demanifest invis and the immunity to stuns while demanifested, the Sadako 'manifest mind games' just became 'manifest free hits'. Especially paired with telephone or reiko's watch- we are basically a stun-immune SPIRIT at short range.
This chase buff changes EVERYTHING in my mind. Iri tape becomes way more viable because we actually have map pressure without condemned. Lock-in at 3 becomes (well, maybe not STRONG but acceptable) because it becomes the groundwork for EITHER 2 more hooks or 4 more stacks of condemned as the situation demands.
Lastly I agree there are still some add-ons I'd love to see reworked or improved at some point, but this is the best looking basekit I've ever seen for her and I'm just really happy about it!
4 -
Very well thought out and expressed. I agree with you over most of this though I still would prefer 2s insert times, or at least 1.5 as a compromise.
The chase buffs are very welcome and I do agree it is an acceptable trade off for them to not give us 4 stacks of condemn lock. The Telephone add-on is one many thought was a bit too weak to justify using but with the Manifestation buff, this add-on got an indirect buff as you alluded to, so now it is in a good spot. As you said, this is the best look basekit version we've probably ever seen of her, certainly the best we've seen recently.
Iri tape becomes way more viable because we actually have map pressure without condemned.
I would like to agree with you here however I still need to voice my concern in the hope that BHVR will notice and address the one glaring issue with this add-on. It is simply far to easy for a single survivor to go from TV to TV, turning them all off for a long 84 seconds. This allows survivors to essentially completely shutdown her power without and risk in return. It turns what should be a fun mobility add-on into a potential liability as using the add-on removes all condemn risk and if survivors abuse this, they also leave you with significant;y limited mobility.
I would love to see BHVR modify this add-on to either hide TV auras when holding a tape (other than their drop-off TV), or make it so when using this add-on survivors carrying a tape cannot interact with TVs other than their drop-off TV. This would still allow for counterplay with the add-on from the survivor side while not enabling them to completely shutdown her power.
Lastly I agree there are still some add-ons I'd love to see reworked or improved at some point
Absolutely. I hope they have plans to address some of them. In my opinion Rickety Pinwheel, Sea-Soaked Cloth and VCR require the most urgency.
Overall I am please and its a step in the right direction with Onryo. I think we all realize and know condemn is a hard mechanic for BHVR to balance and I appreciate the time and effort they seem to be putting in to try and make this right, even if they are taking it safe by slowly making small adjustments.
1 -
Completely agreed. PTB Sadako was amazing, the PTB-to-live changes were disappointing to say the least, and the proposed upcoming changes seem like a wonderful compromise that bring her to a good, healthy state. Love them!
1 -
As long as I can condemn freely as I want I am happy. 😃
I don’t want to be forced to play one way OR the other. I wanna play how I enjoy to. One day that might be hooking, one day that might be just condemning.
1 -
Could you make her invisibility also work when vaulting a window please.
I tested it and everytime when I‘m invisible and start vaulting, I get visible.
1 -
What's up with the sound when onryo damages a generator? It's a bit much.
0 -
I love the new sound for it. Her sound design has always been amazing and this is just another aspect of it. I would be sad if they removed it.
1 -
Nooooo, I love it, don’t change that!
1 -
I would like to express my opinion regarding "When Sadako appears from the TV, the influence she has on the nearby survivors."
To be honest, I don't really want Sadako to have a fighting style where her unique characteristic is high-speed movement, where Sadako appears from the TV and accelerates.
It's not that accelerating is absolutely no good, but I think it would be better to "slow-down the escape of the survivors who were near the TV," which would give a sense of Sadako's personality in the original movie.
Also, even if the survivors witness Sadako appearing from the TV, they do not raise a voice of surprise and are able to calmly run away with all might from the scene without their eyes glued to Sadako. These feel very uncomfortable and strange compared to the original movie "Ring".
As a specific improvement suggestion, I would like the following effects to occur within a certain period of time immediately after Sadako appears from the TV.
- The "survivor who saw Sadako nearby" or the "survivor seen by Sadako" screams, and the survivor's perspective is temporarily fixed in the direction of seeing Sadako in front. Therefore, the survivors targeted by Sadako cannot take their eyes off Sadako, and will basically run backwards (towards the front of the screen). This will make it difficult for the survivors to escape, and they will be more likely to crash into obstacles behind them and be cornered by Sadako.
- At this time, it may be a good idea for the survivor's perspective to be a first-person view instead of a third-person view.
- If Sadako and the survivor cannot see each other due to a wall, the survivor will be able to move their viewpoint. However if Sadako sees the survivor again within a certain period of time, the survivor's perspective is fixed again in the direction of seeing Sadako in front.
- I think it would be more good if Sadako could increase the survivor's Condemned Meter even more if she successfully attacks a survivor in this state within a certain amount of time.
- It might be good to have an add-on that "slows down the survivor's movement speed when the survivor's perspective is fixed the Sadako in front".
I would like to see more emphasis on Sadako's unique personality: "She comes out of the TV and inflicts a threat to nearby survivors."
* I'm not good speaking English. Thank you for reading.
Post edited by JDecker on3 -
I think all of the changes are great, but here is what I would like to see
MUSTS:
2 Second Tape Animation, I don't want to have to Rely on Sloppy Butcher to stop them from putting a tape away in my face.
Remove Visibility of TV Auras, with them on it allows for no Chase mind games except against baby survivors. I want to have a chance at my MMR, it's like Dredge where they can't see the lockers, but they can still counter them by knowing where they spawn/where they are.
Nice things:
Remove Lock on limit Entirely, just makes no sense to have it cause at most we want to hook the survivor once, getting 2 hooks and a condemn is pretty much useless for her and takes way to much time for a killer with no chase power.
Change Iri Tape Back to What It Use To Be! It was a much more fun add on, and wouldn't be to Strong anymore now that TVs are 55% shorter time than what they used to be!
Change Yoichis Fishing Net to Passively Gain Condemn (1 Stack every 30 stacks while holding a tape) Maybe faster though as that's kinda slow.
Honestly that's it the other changes that were given so far seem amazing.
2 -
PLS bring back 2sec TV interaction and remove TVS auras for survivors!
5 -
Agree and please improve her more🙂
3 -
Still trash.. honestly.
- Survivors CANNOT see TV auras
- Interaction of introducing the tapes from 1s to 2s
- Survivors who carry the tape in their hand win passively condemned
I don't know if creating this will serve any purpose.
4 -
New Onryo Is great, Just needs one more touch of love.
2s Tape Interaction
NO TV AURAS PLS
Passive Condemn Add on for Yoichis Fishing Net
Revert Iri Tape to what it was in Onryo 1.0
That's all!
3 -
Ok so after playing some games she does feel better, however a few Matches I got this one guy Condemn 3 times, and he just put the tape away in my face 3 times, I couldn't do anything cause I would hit him and he would do the 1s animation.
Also this match here https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2057184564
This was against a good team, and THIS is why Passive Condemn Needs to be added to tapes.
You can grab a tape at the start, work on a gen next to your target TV, and the second you get 3 stacks put the tape away.
Tapes are once again a safeguard that survivors can just hold onto with no worries.
5 -
TV auras are the #1 BIGGEST issue with this new iteration.
I thought on paper that overall Onryo 3.0 is superior to Onryo 1.0 in every way, EXCEPT, after I played many games, I realized that these TV auras are far too powerful, allowing survivors to counter Sadako's power too easily. It has already been pointed out how survivors can simply turn off TVs near generators, denying Sadako of her power. Spending a few seconds running up to a TV, and one second to turn it off is far too easy. Next, after you're done slamming out a gen that Sadako can no longer teleport to, you can just run across the map, turning off TVs as you go, return your tape to its target TV, and then start working on the generator near that. It's very problematic because her power is too easy to disable, it's too easy to relieve condemn, she has quite a poor stealth ability despite being a "stealth killer" (more on that) and is just a M1 killer in chase.
I have played and seen many games recently where within the first minute of the match, Sadako teleports to one TV, chases one survivor, then three more TVs are shut off in quick succession. That's 4/7 TVs shutoff at the beginning of the match, and there's simply no way to quickly go over there to disrupt the survivors who shut off those TVs. Can't stop them from working on gens. Can't inflict any condemned on them. Your only reasonable options are to continue trying to chase one guy with no chase power, or drop that chase. Guaranteed they'll just run up to another TV, shut it off, and start working on the generator near that as well.
It's also been pointed out that survivors seeing the auras of TVs is also detrimental because this means they also see their auras when they shut off. That means instant verification of if she has teleported to you (using VCR addon or not!) and survivors can also easily tell when you try to teleport ahead of them. They can simply turn around, and you've lost even more distance.
A big part of what made Sadako fun was the ability to teleport to survivors mid-chase.
Here are changes I would suggest for potentially the most fun and balanced Sadako:
- NEVER show TV auras by default. Survivors may briefly see the aura of a TV near them when they get a stack of condemned from it.
- Only reveal the aura of their target TV briefly when they first pick up their tape, and when within 16m of it.
- Powered TVs put heavier static on the survivor's screen when they are at risk of receiving condemned stacks. They also emit audio cues to help survivors find them.
- It takes three seconds to get a tape from a TV and shut it off. Realistically, let's say it takes some time to make a copy.
- If you already have a tape, it also takes three seconds to shut off another TV, and you get ANOTHER tape.
- Each extra video tape you acquire grants you an additional stack of condemn.
- It only takes one second to return a tape to your target TV. However, that's a one-second animation PER TAPE you have picked up.
- You relieve three stacks of condemn once ALL your tapes have been inserted into the target TV.
- While near a powered TV or holding a cursed tape, you hear and are affected by Sadako's lullaby.
TLDR what should this accomplish? TVs are harder for survivors to find, but not frustratingly difficult (minus multistory shenanigans). Disrupting Sadako's power takes a bit more time investment, but far better to attempt this before you are in trouble, not after she's found you. You can still quickly return tapes, but if you have been cocky and shut off more TVs than necessary, you might pay for it. Holding onto a tape or leaving a nearby TV powered has additional risks, as she might be able to sneak up to you demanifested.
5 -
I haven't tested it yet but is Sadako putting away chases quicker with the Telephone addon now given that the Hindered debuff is akin to stepping on Freddy's blood pools?
0 -
It is just a pure M1 killer with tons of useless gimmick as long as the condemned condition is 16m of opened TV.
They may need to review why they need to rework for first version.
Survivors just need to turn off a single TV then they can sit at the generator for 70s.
2 -
The fact that survivors can see TVS is so sad, it remove the element of surprise and mind games possible! Such a bad decision. Who though of that ?
3 -
Yep everybody runs away, before you even see them and nobody gets scared, when she crawls out a Tv in front of you. Just sad.
Post edited by jonifire on2 -
TV auras are 100% the biggest issue with her right now. It baffles me that BHVR has not taken an easy compromise decision to just hide TV auras when survivors are carrying a tape (aside from their drop-off TV). This would easily fix most the issues with TV auras while still allowing survivors to be able to find their first TV to grab a tape and avoid condemn.
The TV auras make condemn so weak against good survivors and also allows these survivors to easily find and disable her TVs which limits her mobility. There simply must be some sort of restriction because right now the auras give way too much info to survivors.
1 -
Passive condemn is a must. 2 second insert is fine too. One or the other but the original feature behavior made was beautiful
2 -
Yes!! If passive condemn exsisted again I am telling people preaching it’ll buy you a little extra time to potentially get that target vs them cleansing right in your face multiple times in a row.
BEHAVIOUR! Pleaseee bring back passive condemn on tapes.
2 -
I got to try out this version of sadako from yesterday and would like my feedback about it, so far she’s great
im so glad she’s back to the way she was before as along with other onryo mains too
there are a few changes she needs to make her better
her TVs placement and the time to turn them off
her tv placement especially indoor maps like RPD can make it very difficult to turn off TVs since TVs can spawn downstairs and have no way of turning them off, TVs placement needs adjustment
as for survivors turning off TVs is way to quick, survivors turning off TVs by 1 second is way to quick which makes it easier to remove condemn in front of sadako which should not be the case, it should honestly be reverted back to the way it was
one final things are her addons
there are few addons that are pretty bad that need changes especially her purple addons like giving survivors hindered when demanifested, iri tape since it no longer gives you condemn she’s just an m1 killer with no slowdown, that addon could use a nice affect like have her teleport faster or even faster movement speed when existing out of a tv
these are my feedback on her and while she’s in a great spot, she’s still gots some roughs around the edges that could use some changes
3 -
Behavior is only going to see the part where you said “She’s in a great spot.” Then proceed to move forward without ironing out the last few issues 😅😭😭
3 -
Wouldn’t doubt it, they’d probably nerf her too which I hope that’s not the case
3 -
Probably.
I hope if they nerf her they give her the functions of OG Sadako and make condemned based around the proximity to TVs.
0 -
Jason please 🙏🏼 don’t say that oh god please no.
1 -
I also pray that won’t be the case, but my god I’m seeing so many survivors complaining about her
2 -
it’s ridiculous. They’re only complaining because they can’t bully her.
3
