The Onryo Feedback
Comments
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Maybe that could happen, but condemned will always encourage to go for the highest condemned person, so there won‘t change much.
The thing is her current version is worse than her first and second one. The first one allowed good tp gameplay and ok condemned. The second one allowed very good condemned and bad tp gameplay. Now her third version is just her second version with bad condemned and no tp cooldown, which doesn‘t change much, when all TVs are turned off.
I try to explain why her tp part got worse: There are two essential factors. 1. The second rework made all survivors turn off all tvs near them, because they want to counter her condemned. Same goes for her new rework. 2. Tv auras make it impossible/ very difficult to use her teleport in chases/ approaches (to get close to survivors through the Tvs), because survivors do always see the aura disappear.
All in all I think my ideas above would allow both ways to be in a good spot without only focusing on one aspect, because global condemned will always make survivors turn off TVs around them. And if they feel like my idea makes condemned too weak, they could add that survivors get condemned regardless of teleporting after some time (every 30-60s you get one stack).
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I agree the current version is the worst version ever, but survivors would still turn off all TV around them to avoid killer teleport to them, no matter global condemn or not.
So the condemned spreading via opened TV is not viable.
I think the previous version of global condemned is just good.
They just need to make the condemned lesser via teleporting and add global condemned via basic attack as a compensation in order to encourage chasing survivors and teleport lesser.
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I actually believe that they won‘t take many tapes when there is no global condemned and the passive condemned from holding tapes would also make people not taking tapes. That in the end would also make one Tv condemned better, because they won‘t be turned off and the proximity change I suggest would also buff condemned in a good way. But that’s just my opinion.
Your idea with basic attacks giving everyone condemned is cool too, they should definitely think about it.
I only don‘t like global condemned, because it always leads to people turning off TVs.
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The only feedback I could come up with is that Dr. Nagao works in BHVR and want to throw Sadako in the well as quickly as possible.
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And then they filled the well with concrete!
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Problems
Survivors are never punished for mistakes because there's 5 counters at any one time and there is 0 threat to holding a tape, AGAIN.
- The first iteration you added passive condemn gain holding a tape because you knew she needed threat and to encourage survivors not to wait until the last second to cleanse.
- The first PTB rework of 2.0 you made it so holding a tape has no threat and literally everyone complained so then you added it when you pushed it to live. It was THE defining change of live 2.0 from PTB 2.0.
- Then 3.0 rework on the PTB there was again, 0 threat to holding a tape outside of gaining a single stack of condemn when you grab a tape which is nothing for shutting down being able to push condemn to an entire section of the map.
- Then you also made putting tapes away take 0 time so if you let your condemn build up all the way you never need to worry because you can put a tape away mid chase since it's so fast giving condemn 0 threat.
- Now you've not only not added pressure back to her tapes when pushing it to live, but you took the two bits of pressure away of gaining a single condemn stack and locking meaningful condemn while simultaneously letting survivors just walk around turning off TV's they walk by while holding a tape. THEN made it so there is a cooldown on actually pushing condemn.
So grabbing a tape prevents Sadako TP'ing for 70s. Prevents Sadako pushing condemn. Doesn't build condemn for you or threaten building condemn to you in anyway or your team. Doesn't have any punishment for being caught out with one since you can't destroy it without hooking which doesn't reward you in any meaningful way and allows you to cleanse your condemn whenever you want with a killer interaction so quick you can do it twice in the time it takes Sadako to just Demanifest.
I haven't seen a killer have so many counters to their power before in my life. I can't believe you've learned TWICE now that she NEEDS PRESSURE ON HER TAPE and she needs to be able to punish survivors for waiting until the last second to cleanse and yet you went ahead and removed all pressure on her tape.
No meaningful condemn can be pushed mid chase because it only pushes it at the end of the teleport animation not at the start and you can see all the TV's. So you're being chased, you run towards a TV to bait her to TP on it then when she does you can run away from it and leave the 16m radius before the animation is done and completely prevent the condemn push. Since you see all TV auras it doesn't even take effort like it did in 1.0 to do this.
Watch a VOD of onepumpwillie playing her. He is arguably the best Sadako player in the world, far more skilled than basically any other Sadako player. Now I want you to pay attention to just how much effort he is needing to put in to push any meaningful condemn. Now I want you to count just how many times a survivor instantly cleanses all the condemn in his face (a massive complaint from 1.0 Sadako that was finally remedied with live 2.0 Sadako just to be brought back with 3.0 Sadako). It's absolutely ridiculous that a survivor can't be punished for letting so much condemn build up on them while you have the killer needing to do gods work just to get the survivor to a state where it actually holds a threat. You've got killers like Nurse and Blight who can finish chases in under 20s, meanwhile Sadako who's an M1 killer needs to spend LITERAL MINUTES building up condemn doing perfect play after perfect play after perfect play and a survivor can mitigate literally all of it with at best, a 15s detour.
Suggestions For Fixes
Remove the ability to just turn off TV's while you are holding a tape OR you need to make it so doing this turns the TV's off for a shorter time than grabbing a tape traditionally does AND has more of a punishment than 1 stack of condemn. 1 person shouldn't be able to grab a tape and just go round turning off every TV on the map with 0 repercussions.
Make it so Sadako can actually do something about the tape being held. If you're going to let them instantly put tapes a way, we need a way to destroy them without hooking them. Destroy them when they are hit and turn the TV back on that it was grabbed from. This prevents the situation where no TV's are turned on for cleansing and will allow the Sadako to punish people on that gen by getting some condemn push when the tape is broken.
Revert the condemn lock changes.
Remove the terrible cooldown on pushing condemn in the first place. Condemn on TP needs to be locked in ON THE INITIAL TELEPORT ANIMATION NOT AT THE END.
Revert the ring drawing change. You nerfed the slug playstyle on it, why rework it again. Current ring drawing should be base kit since we can't even break tapes so there is an actual punishment for being caught out with a tape. The fact ring drawing is currently bugged and has both the new and old effect and meaningful condemn still can't be pushed shows just how horrific she currently is.
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Ok so playing as Onryo with all these nerfs, I do hate that I cant even see when survivors gain a stack/how many stacks they are at. Please change it back to the PTB where it universally applies across all powered TVs AND let Onryo see how many stacks survivors have. Not being able to see it makes the condemned feel so boring/it’s not as rewarding getting a condemned kill without seeing them build up to seven stacks. You also lose valuble info like being able to see that they decreased their stacks from inserting a tape.
Also id like to see some add ons buffed/brought in line with the update. For example Survivors can turn off the TVs for so long and bringing well stone only takes off 7 seconds, that feels so insignificant like several other of her add ons.
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I agree with your post, but just to be clear on the safe side, we were never able, or had the ability to see how many stacks of survivor has clearly like the survivor can on their hud.
well, I do think it would be incredibly useful, it was never a thing. The killer should be able to have more Intel about their power, though in my humble opinion. I know they do this to help prevent tunneling but if you’re going to tunnel you’re gonna tunnel that’s not gonna stop it.
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You said it well my friend. Thank you for your thoughts 👌🏼
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🤣🤣🤣 I’m dead lol
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They should make that the white color turns more and more into red the more stacks you have.
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oh wow im totally mixing up when I verse Sadako with when I play as Sadako. My bad!
the fact that i didnt get anyone to 7 stacks in my games today has me buggin lmao
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It would be really neat, however, I wish we could just see the stacks personally if I had a choice lol
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I actually went against a Sadako recently and found out how crazy it is you can run around and shut off TVs the entire time with a tape, get rid of your stacks, and repeat. I lost the match because 2 other survivors were trying to bully her with flashlights, getting slugged and wasted all the pallets instead of doing generators. It's still kinda crazy I alone can keep most TVs off if I'm uninterrupted and even if I am, I take a hit and go directly to my target TV and cleanse 4 stacks. I can't even blame her for slugging at that point, and she at least hooked when survivors weren't trying to blind.
Something else crazy about all this? I'm recently being namedropped in the Steam Discussions as some kind of killer defender and want 'all killers to be overpowered' including Blight and Billy for saying to take tapes during the 2.0 Sadako at the time and trying to help explain how to mitigate her, and asking why survivors still don't do it now despite how simpler it is. Had to create a support ticket because I asked if he was trolling and the response got deleted while his namedrop is still up.
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Yeah, you can grab a tape turn off 3 TVS and THEN put it away turning off A 5TH TV (5/7ths of her power GONE FOR 70 SECONDS) and then still have a net outcome of 0 stacks of condemn gained.
That is simply insane and poorly designed.
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Yep it’s just sad, especially when you like the teleport part of her power.
The thing is saying something about balance and so on will always make people put you in one group. I personally think they should finally bring the weaker killers in line, so that they can buff survivor again, my survivor games are always a miserable experience, most perks and map reworks are just terrible. In my world fun comes from strong/cool stuff/ features, that are fun and balancing often makes things only worse. I don‘t say problematic things shouldn‘t be changed, but what behavior does with cool perks is always making them die/useless.
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I kinda have the same mindset but in reverse a bit. If survivors had better access to killer information, powers, etc outside of a match and basekit buffs to things like full aggressive slugging and tunneling that isn't abusable to the killer, low tier killers would have no excuse not to be buffed to proper spots. Then we'd also have things like the uncapped condemned-lockon hook mechanic without worrying about nerfing it like this, as well as other killer powers.
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No worries :)
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Please revert the latest changes BHVR... She was healthier and more fun to play. Also many of us would love if you give Sadako more lethality in chase, instead of having only immunity to pallet stuns 🙏🙏
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I don’t believe she needs to be more lethal on Chase, it’s only her power that needs to be stronger. If they buffer and chase, then they have to weaken her power, besides not every killer has to be excellent at Chase.
I personally enjoy using her power strategically, I definitely don’t want her converted more than what she already has been, this has already been a disaster. :)
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now is weaker Executioner.
if want play Onryo, just play executioner.
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My feedback remains same as this thread: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/403099/sadako-suggested-changes-my-version-of-onryo
The summary of the thread is following:
1) Her chase is too weak and has not been improved enough. 1.0 ->1.2 invisibility duration is not sufficient chase improvement.
2) Sadako's gameplay should be more centralized on interrupting tapes and ambushing survivors with tapes. The current version is lacks killer interactivity.
3) The mori feels unrewarding and undeserved in the current version of Sadako.
they already did weaken her power. her previous iteration was her condemn being stronger. rework removed that, so now she needs new strengths.
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I agree with you on the lack of lethality in chase. Onryo not having a good chase power was the trade off from having good map mobility from her TVs and some slowdown from condemn pressure.
The issue with this version is that it is way too easy for good survivors to deny her mobility while also not putting themselves at condemn risk. This can leave her with no chase power, limited mobility, and little condemn pressure; this can render her very weak as a killer. This is all because of how easy and thoughtless her counterplay is, as well as how her TVs are tied to condemn and mobility.
The Iri-tape add-on was a great step in the right direction as it would allow Onryo players to decouple condemn from mobility and ideally have solid mobility as a result. However in practice is it easy for survivors to just go around and deny your power at no risk due to the complete lack of condemn threat. When running this add-on it is critical that BHVR has additional conditions which reduce the survivors ability to interact with TVs.
TLDR: Weak chase is perfectly fine if she still has her macro powers of mobility and condemn pressure, but this update leaves her lacking in all three categories.
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I’m talking about her Original iteration. Sadako 2.0 wasn’t the OG. Her weak chase power is okay as long as her actual power condemn has threat level.
It never needed to be this complicated. Take sadako 1.0 make condemn more threatening, make it so survivors can’t cleanse in her face. The end.
The devs were only ever trying to boost her condemn threat level.
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I agree with you and all this. I think we’ve been on the same page at the same book since day one my friend.
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The question is will the devs bother to read any of this and address her issues. I want to be optimistic but their history has left me with very little hope.
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I made a poll about old and new Sadako. I want to know how many would be interested in my idea.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/404251/old-or-new-sadako#latest
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One big problem is that dev try to make teleport "skillful" in chasing, but it is just not viable.
By comparing with Dredge, Onryo teleport animation takes longer time(3s) which allow survivors to run away for long distance, and the teleport point is very few(7max but nearly 0 available)
As a consequence, we need to spend longer time to chase if we want condemned stack.
If dev really want to encourage chasing rather than teleporting, just integrate the condemned stack into chasing related event (basic attack / injured / dying / hooking).
Otherwise, Onryo would still teleport frequently and pray someone doesn't turn off her TV.
Lastly, please don't put her face back before her jump scare.
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That’s all we can do is hope my friend. Besides putting our own feedback in. At the end of the day, it’s their video game and their money and how they want to spend it, sadly, there isn’t much we can do about it, but we can always keep trying with our feedback.
It’s the fan that keeps this game going.
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Remove the cooldown. 99% of the purpose of teleporting is to apply Condemned, so this change basically just brought back the old cooldown that NOBODY liked and is the reason she got this change in the first place. Survivors can shut off TVs anyway with miniscule consequence, so a cooldown isn't necessary. If Onryo is spamming teleports, just shut off the TV next to your gen and continue working on it. Once your gen's done put it away and shut off any TVs on your way to the target one. Simple.
Current Onryo has TOO MUCH counterplay that the Killer can't punish. A Survivor can turn off multiple TVs and even if they're caught and hooked, 2 locked in stacks is negligible and once they're unhooked they can just remove the rest. Essentially, Survivors can stop her from using her Power and can't be punished for it. The fact they can insert tapes in your face just adds salt to the wound.
I do think locked-in stacks should have a cap in some capacity, but 2 stacks is too low. 3 or 4 is a solid number.
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Behaviour needs to hire you onto their balance team. This comment is exactly what we need for Onryo 💯
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title, I have really nothing else to say because its pretty self explanatory... sadako has nothing. tapes useless because there is no consequence for the survivor holding them, no benefit for you at all. teleport useless, tv will always be off because survivor will always take tape because there is no consequence for doing that, and teleport animation still takes forever. stealth useless because lullaby. phasing useless because it is too short and survivors dont fall for it. condemn useless because of how hard it is to build and how piss easy it is to remove. ive had 5 survivors remove their tape right in front of me because the animation takes one second... who's decision was that? who decided that its fun, interesting gameplay for the killer to watch their progress be removed in 1 second? oh and ur mouse 1 killer with 0 chase potential. I think we did a pretty good job so far
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Overall, she seems very weak now. All of the games I played against her were easy wins for us as survivors and it didn't feel like she could really do anything.
I feel like there needs to be a reason not to just hold a tape forever. It shouldn’t be passive condemn build-up as I feel that was unhealthy, but there needs to be something.
Most of my gameplay against her consisted of simply turning off the TVs near generators and if it came back on I’d just accept the 1 condemn stack to turn it off again. Then go and insert the tape at the far-away TV at a time that was convenient for me. There was no urgency in it whatsoever and it just felt way too easy to counter her power. Even if I got hooked it was no big deal since 2 stacks means very little. I think the whole being able to see the TV ranges and auras thing may need to be reconsidered. I get why it was implemented, but I feel like it was a pretty big nerf to her power.
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Yeah I’ve not really been having any fun playing her current iteration. She’s just kind of clunky and unappealing.
Everything she has is mediocre. Her stealth isn’t good. Her slowdown is easily countered. Her chase power is gimmicky etc.
Post edited by EQWashu on3 -
I agree, I can have fun with other weak killers because at least you can use their power even if it sucks, I can use pig traps, I can use trapper traps, I can use myers stalk... but when a killer has a power that never ever works that's not even frustrating anymore... is just boring
Post edited by EQWashu on4 -
I'm not quite sure you know what you're doing here.
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She feels horrible to play, didn’t check much during the ptb since I had other things going on but I can say with certainty she is much worse to play now
old Sadako (the first one) had the problem of too long tv cooldowns, condemed not building fast enough, and the counterplay being far too easy
Super Sadako had the problem of the fact that she dis encouraged chasing with destroying tape on hit and map wide
Current Sadako now feels exactly like the first Sadako only with semi better tv cooldowns and tapes being EVEN SAFER then both iterations
My solution would be firstly undoing the post PTB changes then additionally bringging back the stack + passive condemed that holding a tape gave, as tapes are now the safest they have ever been as they essentially do what they did with super Sadako with none of the downsides, since turning a tv off protects you from condemed but now the only way to give them condemed is if they run by another tv while holding the tape
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So, after playing this version of Sadako for a good bit, I will say she's not as bad as I thought she would be. Condemn lock, although a heavy nerf, wasn't as bad as i thought it would be, it feels like it doesn't matter all too much, but i think that might be because of how safe cursed tapes are to take. There's no downside to taking them, and with the 1 second time to insert a tape, its also safe for survivors to cleanse stacks right in front of you. And honestly, I'm alright with that change to tapes. Condemn is strong. If you put that time into going to your TV mid match, you deserve to cleanse some stacks.
My problem is that if stacks are easy to cleanse, then there shouldn't be a limit on condemn lock. A survivor has many things in their favor, if they get to high condemn and it's locked in, that's a mistake on their part, and it should be punishable by Sadako. Condemn lock hardly comes into play when tunneling is involved because if a survivor is being tunneled, the amount of stacks they have locked in is irrelevant. When a survivor is hooked, they lose their tape, so it's not like they can lose stacks for condemn lock to be relevant. In my opinion, remove the condemn lock limit and let survivors keep their tapes when being hooked. That way, if they're being tunneled via condemn, they can do something about it. Condemn lock does nothing to combat Sadako's condemn tunneling. Give condemn lock a bit of time before it locks in so that a survivor can make it to their TV if they were downed close enough to it, or give survivors condemn immunity for a period after being unhooked to prevent tunneling via condemn but still remove the tape. They could be immune to condemn until they perform a conspicuous action or are fully healed or after X seconds, whichever comes first.
My gripe with cursed tapes, however, is that they don't feel cursed. They don't carry any of the thematic weight they do in the source material. In game, their sole use is to counter Sadako's power. They don't even help spread the curse, unless you run one specific addon. With how safe it is to do tapes, i feel like there should be some sort of penalty they inflict. Not slowdown of course, but a little something to make a survivor think at least a little before taking a tape. I agree, it should be easy to do tapes and a survivor should be rewarded for positioning themselves good enough to cleanse themselves of condemn. However, with spreading condemn being weakened and condemn spreading less with tapes being the safest they've ever been, there needs to be something to make cursed tapes feel cursed and help spread condemn in some way, whether direct or indirect. Personally, I love the idea of tapes negating bonuses. Haste, endurance. gen and healing speed increases, gone. Or, even just reducing bonuses by 50%, something along those lines. Maybe they can reveal a survivor's aura intermittently while being held. If we wanna get crazy, have them inflict hindered while in chase. If tapes are gonna be easy to do, there needs to be some downside to them.
And a very personal thing I'd like for Sadako, making reiko's watch and old newspaper basekit. Sadako has the weakest chase of any killer. And i know it's because she has the threat of inexorable stare and mix of map pressure and slowdown her chase can't be strong. However, with doing TVs being as safe and easy as ever and the slowdown from it generally being weak, I think she needs some chase power. The current base numbers of Sadako's invisibility aren't enough to be viably used in chase. In my experience, which is many, many, hours using the addon combo, reiko's watch and old newspaper give a good and fair duration of invisibility that can be used in chase and to sneak up. Pure untrackable invisibility is good, but is ultimately a mindgame, one that survivors can adapt to when used in chase by winning the mindgame, or holding W. And for outside of chase when used to sneak up, with good enough game sense and her ambient noises, a player can still know when and where Sadako is approaching from and act accordingly. I will say that chasing while demanifested so that bloodlust can be built is good. Considering Sadako's chase ability, even with reiko's watch and old newspaper to extend invisibility, bloodlust kicking in when it needs to is nice.
As for condemn itself, i feel like it is just a bit too weak. While being able to teleport at will again does feel amazing, the condemn power timer doesn't feel as near as good. It has the psychological effect of wanting to use a projection on cooldown. It basically takes away some of the agency from the player by saying, "hey, use your power now, or be inefficient." It's not a good feeling for the Sadako player. And even if during the PTB a player could chain some teleports before going to the TV they really wanted to get to, so what? Survivors can counter that by turning off the TV Sadako is ultimately targeting. There's little downside to doing so. And even if there was a downside, such as negating penalties, and even if her chase was better via better invis, she still wouldn't be overpowered or as difficult to counter as sadako 2.0. Survivors have to be within range of a powered TV, and if they're holding a tape, can power it down in exchange for a stack of it isn't the highlighted TV. That 1 stack gained will likely prevent many more stacks being gained, preventing multiple stack occuring on yourself and any nearby teammates on.
On a minor, related note, TV spawns. Sadako does well on indoor maps due to most being multiple floors that condemn can spread through, making taking tapes to prevent getting condemn slightly harder. And with multiple floors and typical smaller perimeter, a breather effective percentage of the map has area in which condemn can spread. However, Sadako will have a less easier time spreading condemn on bigger maps due to a lower percentage of the map being an area where condemn can spread. Gens are more spread out, so TVs are too, and with more area, TVs are much less like to be close to one another. And uniquely, the swamp maps can have really funky TV spawns. Tvs never spawn at the main building, resulting in their associated TV usually spawning in a way that they wont inflict condemn on a survivor on that generator. However, it can also have some really close TVs, usually in the center of the map. Anyone running though that are is guaranteed to get a stack unless multiple survivors take a tape or return a tape to the 2-3 tvs in the area. Currently, the 10 second condemn cooldown keeps that in check so a person running though doesn't gain 3 stacks in the span of like, 7 seconds or something while in chase. Regardless, this is uniquely a swamp problem, I'm guessing because TVs cant spawn on slopes, and can be addressed accordingly. And regardless of swamp, it's nice that Sadako is stronger and some maps and weaker on others. That goes for any killer though.
I know I did a fair bit of like, complaining, but ultimately, as a Sadako main, I'm happier with this more healthier state of her. She might be weak, but she's skillful again. And now that she's back to being something more skillful to play, I hope she can be adjusted to be more viable, even just slightly so. Regardless, I hope this feedback proves useful, and thanks for giving our favorite Onryō and her fans some attention!
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To be honest the whole condemned system seems like its something that high end gamers try to completely exploit, to a point where it gets nerfed for everyone else. And no matter how it gets applied it makes the killer avoid standard gameplay. Perhaps the whole condemned status could be either changed to something else like an end of round mechanic or can apply stacks when you hit the survivor so that they just build up through normal gameplay and the tvs remain a mobility option. Because currently it either takes too much effort to apply this mechanic, or previously no effort at all.
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Listen up. I played 3 days of PTB I plyed for around 4 to 5 games a day. No Killer games because I couldnt be bothered to wait 20 Minutes for one Game. Not once... Not a single time did i queue into an Onryo. She was free for PTB and i might have just been unlucky or very few people bothered to try her.
Now from what I heard she was actually really nice/improved ... (improved does not mean overpowered or unbalanced) to play as or against. Now I also read lots of comments saying that after the nerf she is just plain, weak, unfun and has to tunnel. Why make a Killer ,the few people that met her or played her described as fun, diffrent then when people actually enjoyed them.
I think that up to 3 condemned stacks should stick after a hook. Every Killer has their own counterplay and survivours have to adapt to the killer. If you dont cleanse your condemned you are not allowed to cry over it sticking. 2 (as pointed out by others) is a little to little. And encourages tunneling
Someone said in a diffrent post that condemned should be applied by proximity to Tv I agree that would make the condemning easier and more risky for survivours. I belive it was along the lines of 3 meters proximity gives two stacks 3 to 16 gives one stack and 16 to 24 gives half a stack. That would mean survivours also have to time when to get rid of their tape because they might just run into an onryo and get more stacks than they bargained for. As the tape retrieving and inserting speed is buffed this shouldnt make to big a problem.
But honestly why even ask for opinions Bhvr, your not gonna change anything or if you do it'll probably be in two years
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I‘m happy you liked my idea🙂. I really hope they make her condemned based around the proximity to one Tv📺 .
Right now you either stomp people or have 0 chances, depends how good the survivors are.
I suggested (based around her OG versions concept): 0,5 stacks (20-16m); 1stack (16-10m) and 2stacks (10-0m), but all those numbers could be adjusted. Like you already mentioned in the other post, it should be a higher range for the half stack, maybe 16-24/28m.
This change would also make her more skillful and survivors wouldn‘t always turn off all TVs around them anymore, which hinders her mobility.
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I really hope you make her all tv condemned a purple addon and change her base power to her first version with all of the buffs you gave her and make it like I suggested with the proximity change.
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On the PTB they had it perfect. It was right where it needed to be. I don’t agree that the condemn should be an endgame mechanic if that’s what you meant.
While I think it would be cool every time she hit somebody, they get condemn, because her power literally means “to curse” it wouldn’t be the best idea because she’s still M1, with no chase and no anti-loop.
As I’ve said several times before, that’s not an issue just make her condemn an actual threat, the PTB solved that.
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This may drown in the floods of feedback, but I'll give my two cents.
From a raw balancing perspective, both the lock on condemned being unlimited, AND the no cooldown condemned were fine. Good players understand how you gain and lose condemned, as well as how TVs work.
But a lot of people have no clue. You shouldn't nerf her strength to appease players that literally do not understand how the killerpower works.
However, I get where these players are coming from. She's a little confusing, she's had many reworks, they don't know how she works. But that's okay! Because just like the changes to Skull Merchants scan lines becoming white, you can show them how she works in-game!
Make it ABUNDANTLY CLEAR when someone gains condemned while near an active TV , that THE ACTIVE TV is the reason they are becoming condemned! Have it glow with a dark aura! Have it darken their whole screen, except for the TV! Make the TVs all emit a creepy, directional static sound as Sadako is teleporting. Show players the danger, and they will quickly understand "I have to get away from this TV, or turn it off!"
That's good game design! That visual and auditory feedback was the ONLY change Sadako needed from the PTB. You did a great job with her in the PTB, but your takeaways completely missed the mark. Her problem is not her strength, it's the clarity of her power.
Post edited by MrMori on6 -
I agree 💯 people just need to get use to her so they can learn. That’s all.
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A final plea against the condemned cooldown!
Hey guys! Was just doing some thinking tonight and I realized something about this version of Sadako that I find very problematic. It's a bit 'mathy' so bear with me here. I'll try to lay this out as clearly as possible:
Survivor interactions currently turn TVs off for 70 seconds. This is 10 seconds more than her first version. Keep that in mind.
Gens take 90 charges at base. I'd guess the average gen time is around 90 seconds between the push and pull of perks, but who knows. I'll assume 90 seconds here for the sake of argument.
Sadako is now limited by a 10 second cooldown between condemned stacks. Actually, because Sadako is only allowed to start her teleport at 98% charge on the power meter, the cooldown between stacks is closer to 13 seconds. Condemned is applied after the crawl animation finishes and it takes between 2 and 3 seconds to complete that animation.
Tapes have few downsides now- we've established that. But holding a tape does have one critical downside: turning off non-target TVs will inflict a stack of condemned. This can and should be the 'passive' condemned gained from holding a tape. To fully complete a gen in 90 seconds, you'd have to turn off a TV twice in that timespan- only eating one stack in the process. A fine trade!
On the PTB, if survivors did not turn off the TV twice, once the TV by their gen powered up again, they could gain as many as 4 full stacks before finishing their gen in the last 20 seconds. This is the punishment for ignoring the power of the killer and the counter. This is assuming the killer has 3 other TVs up, and somehow is able to teleport to EVERY TV other than theirs before finishing them off. This is an extreme outlier situation, and I'd say a rather skilled play from the killer if they somehow gathered that information and used it. It would also be a HUGE misplay from the survivor who ignored their kill meter slowly rising over the course of 20 seconds.
Currently, in live, in that last 20 seconds, if a survivor completes their gen and ignores the TV by their gen, they are only at risk of gaining ONE more stack. (they can't even inflict condemned twice in 20 seconds).
It's the exact same as turning the TV off. It's arbitrary. There's no risk of leaving that TV on after turning it off once.
This fact SEVERELY diminishes interaction between survivor and killer power.
In fact, (and if my math is wrong here idk sue me), you could carry one tape and complete 3 full gens while only 'passively' gaining 5 stacks in the process. HUUUUUGE nerf from Sadako 1, and combined with the decreased tape interaction time and hook lock-in nerf...
Condemned is dead in the water if survivors realize this.
And that leaves Sadako dead in the well- her chase power is minimal, that leaves her map pressure fairly inconsequential...
This 10 second condemned cooldown is a disaster for the character. PLEASE revert this, and please consider raising the curse lock-in with a hook to 3 or 4 stacks (or remove it altogether)
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Gonna try to keep this brief:
The ptb version of sadako felt better to play, and has a better arrangement of her power than the live version of her.
That being said, I really wish some of her other add-ons got a touch up as well.
Ones that I REALLY wish were reworked are: Clump of Hair, Cabin Sign, Yoichi's Fishing Net, and Well Stone
These effects are either unhelpful, or just not strong enough. The recent addon changes were very good, but I wish we could get her to an even better state
<3
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This exactly. Most killers, with a few exceptions, are at their strongest at release, or when they get a rework, because Survivors have yet to understand the counterplay. I'd argue that Sadako is at her weakest, weaker than even her first iteration. And as survivors adapt to her reworked power, she'll get even weaker. Against coordinated teams, she struggles greatly, and it'll only get worse for her as all survivors learn the counterplay.
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Completely agree with you and hope BHVR will address this.
This is also why I've been strongly advocating that when survivors are holding a VHS tape, they should not be able to see TV auras other than their assigned tape drop off TV . This would make them have more pressure to do the tape rather than sit on it; it would also make it harder for a survivor to systematically turn off all the TVs to deny condemn and mobility. The requirement of it only being once they hold a tape will also still allow newer players and players in general find that first TV with a aura to stop condemn and help them figure out the counter. Its a good compromise solution I feel.
Condemned is dead in the water if survivors realize this.
The worst part is that a lot of the survivors I question in the post game chat are either unaware of the basics of her new power and some not even realizing that she was changed. In a couple of weeks to a month once many survivors start to learn how her new power actually works, this issue will get much worse.
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The reason for reworking and adding CD after PTB is that dev don't want Onryo teleport frequently for condemned and chase survivor normally.
The PTB version allows Onryo to teleport into "wrong" TV frequently to have condemned stack, so the rework is meaningless if they maintain original PTB version.
However, Onryo would still teleport frequently as long as she need to gain condemned via teleporting.
So it is not a good game design actually.
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