I'm glad this game mode exists.
This game mode has succesfully allowed us to witness DBD's issues in an amplified manner, as someone mentioned here on the forums. With multiple discussions being formed regarding the unpleasant experiences people have encountered, one thing seems to repeat the most - tunneling. Who would've thought that in a game mode where anti-tunnel perks are non-existent and killers are ENCOURAGED to tunnel (thanks to survivors being stealthy, the whole point of the game mode) that this would happen? Proxy camping is a whole other issue I'm not even going to go into here because it's self-explanatory with no terror radius presence and goes hand in hand with tunneling. Tunneling has stained every experience it touches and nerfing Onryo's tunneling potential does not compensate for this stain. Something more has to be done about this playstyle or there needs to be a new matchmaking system that provides reliable teammates to have games not end up in 3v1's at 3-4 generators every couple of games. I understand that it's a strategy and necessary sometimes, but it shouldn't feel necessary. Mitigate tunneling so that it doesn't ruin just 'one' person's experience (when it affects the entire team) and compensate for it. I don't have a specific idea in mind, but I really want to play old DBD again, where different playstyles were encouraged and it didn't feel stale and mind-numbingly dull to play. Being happy that I'm not getting tunneled or proxy camped shouldn't be a thing, I shouldn't feel forced to run anti-tunneling perks to have a chance at countering such an obnoxious playstyle, I shouldn't be punished for spreading hooks, etc.
Incentives can only do so much so I really don't know what the next steps are here. Tunneling isn't going anywhere until something sufficient will be done. I'm glad this isn't a permanent game mode, but a little reality check where you play a couple of games and then never want to play again since it's that bad. Had high hopes for this game mode, but here we are.
Comments
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As long as the killer is rewarded more for killing a survivor than they are for spreading hooks, anything short of making survivors invulnerable would stop tunneling. But making survivors invulnerable would be a far worse situation than tunneling is.
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I'm looking for things that would mainly restrict it's prominence, not eliminate it. But yeah, those observations are correct.
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Survivors already have basekit BT to prevent being tunnel straight off unhook. There's not really more than can be done for survivors, because the survivor is the 4 man team and the killers main objective is to kill them.
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Base kit BT doesn't do much in the long run. In fact, it hinders anti-tunnel perks because when you're deep wounded you can't use them. Killers know this and that's why they hit off hook. Saves them more time than being hit with a dead hard would've and that's why tunneling is so common.
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Yeah the excuse of saying they have to tunnel to get a kill is getting old real fast. Makes it look bad on people actually struggling and needing to tunnel after being punished for spreading hooks.
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If you want to go back to the days of getting unhooked and immediately going down, be my guest. It exists for the reason so killers can't just take advantage of the fact an unhooked survivor is an immobile target.
Not to mention that basekit BT existing didn't make tunneling more common. The devs have slowly nerfed many alternative ways killers had to win without tunneling.
Hit and Run was killed with CoH release and despite nerfs to healing since, Mangled and Sloppy are about to be nerfed again.
3 Gen strats just got nerfed.
Strong regression perks keep getting nerfed.
If you are a killer and you are playing to win, the best try and true mention is to kill a survivor quickly. Optimally this means focusing your early hooks towards a quick kill which results in tunneling.
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I don't. I'm just saying basekit BT isn't as glorious as you describe it to be - It's a minor inconvenience against tunneling. If you are a killer and playing to win, tunneling at five gens shouldn't be something you want to be planning for. It's a boring experience for both sides, especially against solo queue where killers steamroll my team and still tunnel as if their life depends on it. If you're playing to win, at least try a little bit. The game shouldn't dish you out wins and tunneling doesn't make you feel like you achieved anything. After I tunnel, I don't feel satisfied. I don't see why I would.
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Tunneling at 5 gens is blaming the killer for something that is the fault of the survivors. If the killer is chasing 1 survivor, you have 3 survivors who can work on gens. Assuming relatively equal skill on the killer and survivors, survivors should have at least 1 gen done by the time the killer gets the first hook.
So if the killer is capable of tunneling out a survivor without any gens getting done, the survivors messed up.
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It's only been a few hours. You shouldn't expect everyone to change their playstyle immediately. I've only played survivor so far today and my teammates are basically trying to play the same as normal and being punished for it, or being too afraid to work on gens that aren't in the open. Most games I'm finding most of the chests completely unopened even though they're a major help. They'll adapt soon.
As far as tunneling goes, for me at least it's been far less prominent in Lights Out. A lot of killers are going completely out of their way to avoid tunneling.
What I've noticed the most being on display is the lack of survivor skill and lack of genrushing. People are getting pulled off gens like they aren't even trying to pay attention. When the hud shows a survivor in chase a lot of them are still too afraid to work on gens with blind spots.
TL;DR: We're seeing how the abundance of information, powerful perks, and strong items are carrying a lot of survivors that have no business winning, and how tunneling wouldn't be necessary at all and could be safely nerfed if the survivors weren't given tools powerful enough to let low skilled players compete far above their skill level.
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Or perhaps the MMR messed up? You know, the reknown system everyone loves?
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Tunneling being far less prominent? This whole forum is talking about how bad the tunneling is... What game are you playing?
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Incase you haven't noticed, people tend to greatly exaggerate how often tunneling, camping, and 4man SWF death squads happen.
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I think the whole stealth aspect amplifies that. Hook someone then walk around for 30+ seconds to find exactly nobody so logically you'll just go back to hook.
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And people tend to greatly exaggerate about how tunneling isn't effective. What's your point here?
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We could get DS back on 5 seconds, for a start...
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Oh come on, you know what their point is. Hyperbole is often used on these boards to try and make something (tunnelling, camping, slugging, whatever else) seem far more prevalent than it actually is. Players on both sides do this all the time, whether it be survivors exaggerating about how often they're camped/tunnelled/slugged or killers exaggerating about facing back to back SEAL team 6 SWF's. My experience so far playing Lights Out has been about the same as "Exxodus21" has described.
I don't think many people exaggerate about how tunnelling isn't effective. I don't see that argument very often. Most people know exactly how effective it is, that's why they do it.
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I know right. A rework isn't that necessary.
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I haven't played yet, just woke up and was planning to. Here I thought people would treat this mode as a fun experience. Shame to hear it's still all sweating.
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Well here's some recent examples I'll summarize: Tunneling only ruins the experience of the person getting tunneled (false), tunneling means three people will be on gens (to have three people on gens in solo queue is a miracle + killers finish chases faster when the person being tunneled has one health state), tunneling is necessary to win games (false), etc.
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Not really sweating. Killers are just encouraged to camp and tunnel to win, played one killer game and got a 4k without really trying. Can't imagine how easy it would've been if I did tunnel.
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Not really exaggeration though, is it? I doubt that people who make those claims even believe that rubbish themselves, to be honest.
For what it's worth, I agree with you. Tunnelling ruins the experience for everyone. Tunnelling rarely means that three people will be on gens if playing solo and you certainly do not need to tunnel to win games. Bad players use this as an excuse instead of trying to actually improve their gameplay. This boosts them to an MMR level that they don't belong in and can't compete in without that "strategy" and then of course they double down on how "necessary" it is.
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In my solo q experience, that 1 survivor being chased kites the killer into me, the killer almost always switches to me, the previously chased survivor runs off to look for heals instead of taking over my gen, and I end up getting tunneled out of the match from that point on (either because I looped too long and the killer's ego was hurt, or I didn't loop long enough and am seen as the weak link).
This has reinforced my stealthy selfish playstyle. The killer can't tunnel me if I don't get found in the first place.
Post edited by Nos37 on1 -
I don't think anyone says tunneling isn't effective. The whole argument is that it's the most effective strategy, especially now.
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If the killer finds you on a gen and has been chasing another survivor, you weren't being tunneled.
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Some do, some don't.
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I don't think a perk behind a pay wall is the solution. It's a start, but not a good start. A base mechanic would be much better.
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This is typical of my experience with the 12ish games of survivor I've played today.
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That's not what I said in my post.
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You said another survivor kites them to you, meaning the the killer is chasing them, then you said once the killer starts chasing you the other survivor doesn't take over your gen, meaning you were working on a gen. Nothing about that situation is being tunneled.
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I see how my wording made it sound like that. I meant that the killer proceeds to tunnel me after I've been caught. Fixed it.
"In my solo q experience, that 1 survivor being chased kites the killer into me, the killer almost always switches to me, the previously chased survivor runs off to look for heals instead of taking over my gen, and I end up getting tunneled out of the match from that point on (either because I looped too long and the killer's ego was hurt, or I didn't loop long enough and am seen as the weak link)."
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It only lasts 10 seconds and goes away after one hit. Killer can easily catch up. The devs could be doing so much more than just focusing on perks to balance the game. They proved it with stopping gen tapping and face camping. Although the killer can still face camp after the last gen is completed or proxy camp basement for 4k. I get that the game was heavily survivor sided but now it's heavily killer sided because they still think the game should be balanced around 1v1v1v1v1 instead of 4v1. And a lot of games were balanced for 4v1 metrics in the past, just not for PvP. Final Fantasy for example started with 4 characters against a different number of enemies, including just 1. Had this game actually balanced with stats in mind since the beginning, it would be easier to keep it balanced today. Instead, they chose 1 to 2 huts on survivor and stunning killer. There is no way to balance this game efficiently the way that it is.
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I had my first game and killer obviously had wallhacks lol so that was my first experience. I ran straight across the map to basement (in shack, gen was complete) while he downed and hooked someone on the opposite side of map. Then he made a beeline straight to me in basement. He had no reason to come straight there. I'd love to know how that's fun for them.
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I think a lot of killer players who thought they were actually good at this game are going to realize how much they rely on scratch marks and perks. And I think a lot of survivors that could pull off those flashlight saves and jump through windows and drop pallets realize that without their perks they're just like the rest of us.
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If they can enjoy tunneling, I'm sure this won't get in their way either.
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Also, someone got tunneled and really didn't like it. What matches are short anyway so what's the use in getting upset? I got upset and I still get upset but I just play on.
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There is no further reward than having easier match with 3v1 from tunneling. I dont get it why most killer think that transparent number MMR is a reward to them.
The only way to making tunneling less efficient than spread hook to make killers stop tunneling.
There are alot of things to work on anti tunneling, if take it to the extreme like BT endurance last forever until healed or do Gens, and even slap DS in basekit along with it (of course with some QoL improve like removing collision, and give BBQ aura on the least hooked survivor after a hook .ect); then by monitoring how killers perform without ability to tunneling, they can buff killers accordingly; but Devs want tunneling to stay in the game.
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- Survivors get two lives each. They die when hooked and respawn away from the killer.
- Killer gets regular, intermittent KI on other survivors so they can't hide.
- Killer gets permanent BL gain from chases until they kill the next survivor, at which point it resets (survivors get a permanent slower version of unbreakable to avoid killers slugging and using BL to go after other survivors without trying to hook the first one).
- Survivor who is killed is immune to KI and cannot be hit or bodyblock until one or two other survivors are killed.
- Points 2, 3 and 4 disable when all gens are completed or only one survivor remains, at which point regular hook play begins.
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Before this mode I never once seen a forum post about tunneling. Yes, this mode as brought to light, 😆, a huge issue secretly plaguing the community.
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It hasn't been brought to the light by this discussion, nor did I infer it was a secret. This game mode just made it more obvious as to the extent thanks to its features that you wouldn't get to experience in a regular game. Clearly the point flew right past you...
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I feel like lights out really says NOTHING about the base game's problems. If this was JUST a game mode where the only thing missing is perks, you'd have a point. It's not though... The fact that it's hard to find anyone unless you are super close to then could have something to do with the fact that grunting survivors are getting chased more. Tracking has been reduced to mostly sound. Base game has scratch marks, or just looking for crows to fly in the distance. Lights out...doesnt.
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Base game's problems will be amplified in any game mode that involves randomizing perks or removing them altogether. Killers will be encouraged to tunnel because they won't expect any solid anti-tunnel perks. Sometimes there'll be cases where it's necessary or whatever, but most of the time it'll be voluntary just like this game mode has shown. You could easily jumpscare survivors and both have fun but majority of killers just tunnel thanks to the BP incentive being boosted and only kills being rewarded well over hook stages.
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You'd have a point if the killers vision WASNT obscured so much. Tunneling is only that when the killer is CHOOSING to chase 1 target over their teammates. This game mode's hamstringing of tracking heavily limits that. The only thing you can really track is bloodstained and grunts.
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Also sometimes the survivor just runs into you, because both sides can't see very well and survivors don't get TR sounds.
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I'm noticing killers with some kind of tracking ability work really well for this. All of a sudden Legion is S tier and Nurse sucks, lol. It makes sense that ppl are chasing injured survivors simply because they are easier to find. 90% of tracking comes down to sounds on this gamemode.
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Even though Legion is strong for the mode, he's still legion and is still an M1 killer for downs.
It's not the full map pool, it's like 3 or 4 maps selected specifically for the mode and all maps are still quite big so Frenzy TR won't cover most of it. Legion also doesn't have access to his duration and speed addons for frenzy which makes quite a difference. Feral Frenzy itself is still not lethal without 5 hits which can be avoided by survivors spreading out a bit.
Frankly, without having some gen control, gens will still pop. I haven't really encountered a game where no gens were finished simply because you still have to locate a survivor without any help.
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This WOULD be true normally, however it's difficult to know which way Legion is even coming from. "Spread out" only works when you know where your teammates are. Survivors can recognize that a legion is frenzying from the HUD, but they dont know if the Legion is coming to them next and from which direction.
As for being an M1 killer... it's actually not that bad. After you get ppl injured, tracking them down later is alot easier due to sounds and bloodstains. You're also going to get a whole lot closer than normal against survivors who can't see where the closest pallet is most of the time. Chases end alot faster than normal.
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Basekit 3s DS, with the perk bumping it up to 6s?
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I feel like people are tackling this game mode with a Core DBD mindset and applying Core DBD “rules” to it leading to overwhelming negative feedback.
I hope that the devs don’t end up shelving or delaying their plans for other game modes solely based on how Lights Out was received.
Lights Out would have been a great game mode in another time where the community was less optimized and experienced perhaps.
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Something like that, yes. But with restrictions.
The most important one being:
- If the survivor that has the mechanic active AND another survivor is being chased, the killer loses collision with the survivor that has the mechanic active.
Making the perk basekit is a better idea than making a healthy effect (if used healthy) locked behind money.
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Mics are not necessary for genrush. As long as genrush exists, tunneling will be necessary for killers that like to win.
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