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I'm glad this game mode exists.
Comments
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Thanks for explaining it better, I couldn't really put it into perspective like you did.
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52 up votes 😮
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I've played several games as survivor tonight.
Nobody was tunnelled. (I must be very lucky.)
The only annoying thing was a survivor collaborating with the killer (That was properly infuriating.)
Getting only one health state isn't really a problem. It just means I'm allowed one less mistake. I believe I'm not the only one thinking like that given how many survivors will do a gen instead of healing.
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That tells you how many haven't got a clue about the need for tunnelling. I'm back on killer right now and I'm finally going against teams doing gens in parallel. Low score for everybody and impossible to get a kill unless I tunnel. ^_^
Thankfully, I've started with the first 3 gens popping in a 10 seconds interval. Got 2 kills in the end, the second one rage-quitting when their blocking tactic failed. (They were four Steam friends) That was pretty close though. I got him inside the gates. (Demogoron, I've assumed it was the weakest killer in this mode given the noise he makes)
Goes back to the same thing. If you go against a strong team it's the only move.
And you never know in advance what kind of team you'll get.
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When I see "Old DBD" I equate that to pre-2019 DBD. Because to me the differences between 2019 DBD and current day DBD aren't all that big. Tunneling was extremely prevalent before then and much harder to actually deal with compared to now where to me it feels like I have a ton of options to address the situation the times I did play survivor.
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Interesting.
As far as I know most players consider the Old DBD to have lasted from the game's initial release until the atrocious map reworks. So, 2016 - early 2020.
But this is subjective, of course. Either way, I think 2019 DBD is a good example of how to do properly address tunneling.
No problem, my friend! I'm always happy to talk about the golden days.
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For me "Old DBD" predates anti-tunnel perks as that's how long I've personally played the game. So, I'm aware of the times when they did come into being and their peaks as well as their low points. From my experience and perspective there are only a couple handfuls of situations where survivors truly just have no recourse to deal with tunneling. Not that the options you have are at their strongest peak, but they are by no means ineffective either. They just don't absolutely remove the team reliance element from the equation if you are in a particularly bad spot anymore.
You're only punished for spreading hooks if it is overall just taking too long, but the benefits of spreading hooks are usually a much more stable endgame. Tunneling applies a ton of pressure to the early and mid game if you're successful with it and don't lose a ton of that pressure to losing gens. Spreading hooks gives up a heavy pressure application early in exchange for an overall better chance of winning as long as you can keep the game at a decent pace. Also it isn't as if you have to choose one or the other because you can spread hooks through early and mid game and then single out someone to start snowballing towards your endgame. There isn't a one size fits all strat that works for every killer, but this is the overall theory I've played my games around for a long time.
Teamplay being non-existent in solo q isn't something that the devs can fix as it isn't a mechanical problem and changing matchmaking still won't give you teammates who want to play in a team oriented way. The playerbase needs to recognize the issue lies within them and then strive to correct it. Preventing tunneling is a nebulous goal with no real sensible way to do it based on how the game is designed to work.
Whether the killer is chasing the same person repeatedly or trying to chase everyone equally at some point you're gonna end up in a situation that technically qualifies as someone's definition of tunneling. Preventing tunneling means fundamentally changing something about chases or hooks, but it would also be a major change that would effect many other facets of the game for both sides. It isn't as simple as making players invisible or using cage of atonement mechanics ( the two most suggested things). Ultimately, the games are still progressing normally even if we don't appreciate the way it is being progressed.
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Well the ''need'' for tunneling has been tarnished quite a lot by killers using it to excuse bad gameplay. Removes the validity just like when gen-rushing was exaggerated. But you're right, it's the only effective thing against SWF. That's why I wouldn't mind a compensation for removing the playstyle.
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Endgame isn't really stable anymore considering the popularity of Adrenaline. You could be chasing a injured survivor and suddenly you're back at step one. It's not really the perks fault because it's balanced and whatever but you should not really expect much apart from one kill from camping and maybe a couple of hooks from trades. Tunneling applies more gen pressure than spreading hooks ever would. If you tunnel out the weakest link (like many killers do) you have a 3v1 relatively fast. Once that happens it's ggs unless you're tunneling a survivor that knows what they're doing a bit. That survivor may be trash at looping, but they still contribute the same gen progress as every other survivor.
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That's not an easy one. On one hand, on principle, I'm against removing options for any side. (As much as I dislike seeing gens pop in parallel)
On the other, I like chases better than anything else in the game.
I believe, like many others apparently, than changing the rules to go for hooks instead of kills is a step in the right direction.
But as for the solution ... I'm drawing a blank. To be fair it's 00:01 here and I've been up since 02:00. I'm barely functioning.
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Meh, I am just not interested in playing against it. Myself and 3 other randoms just threw ourselves at a tunneling Ghostface and 3 of us died on our first hook. if that is the direction you want to see the game go in. Keep doing what you do.
This was in "lights out", love the mode but the baddies are wrecking the enjoyment.
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tell that to corrupt intervention.
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What if I told you SWF was the anathema to tunneling you’re looking for?
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Camp hook saves and find killers that circumvent vision.
That is what lights out mode is.
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Looking away from the problem because I would have a SWF wouldn't be right in my eyes. It would only cause killers to get irritated that their go to playstyle isn't working like they intended it to against us and they'd take that newfound anger out on a solo queue.
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Adrenaline's effectiveness while strong isn't insurmountable. You endgame is actually quite stable if you've had a solid early and mid game of spreading hooks. Also you have other tools at your disposal to address potential Adrenaline plays such as slugging. The strength of your options will again depend on what killer you're playing. Stronger killers or killers with niche gimmicks that work well in the endgame will obviously have better results.
If your only concern is a total victory snowball then yes, tunneling is your best value play. I would say that playing that way typically isn't the most stable way to play because unless you're actively profile peeking to see who is most likely to be the weak link you could end up over committing to the wrong target and if you mess up your tunneling strategy it is harder to recover than if you are spreading hooks. If you're spreading hooks effectively and consistently that means you're also pressuring more of the map and map pressure is one of the big difference makers that can swing a game in your favor.
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Agreed, but the thing being, Strategy. Survivors in my experience rush for saves, never giving killers the amount of time to even leave the area. My experience in Lights Out seems to be altruistic survivors going for saves, which in the end, gives a noise trigger. And what Killer would just allow that? I myself go for the one who saved the hooked survivor. Why be damned for that? The survivor should allow the 1stage of hang time and instead finish a Gen. I notice more often than not, once caught and chased down to get hooked. There are survivor mates going for body blocking and fail at best. They should be busy doing gens. And still continue altruistically unhooking, not leaving time for killer to seek others, because they are already nearby. At the end of the day, survivor priority need be more "selfish" and sneak more instead of saving a mate so rushed.
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Ghostface must've queued up for another game instantly knowing it's an easy win ha ha
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Ah here in lies the problem, with a broad enough definition anything can be called tunneling.
I've had people say I tunneled them even when I've hook 2 people in between chases simply because I downed them again in swift order.
The players who say they see tunneling everywhere are clearly seeing tunneling in any scenario so yes they see it everywhere.
Its an effect that definitely suffers from survivorship bias in that a player hyper-focuses on "tunneling" and as a result only remember or count the games when it happens and gloss over the times it doesn't.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen just that it doesn't happen the extent to which people want to claim it does and if it is then how wide of net are they casting with their highly subjective definition of tunneling.
Players aren't immune to elimination just because they've been unhooked nor should they be.
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Anything could be considered gen-rushing as well. I mean I've had Trappers complain about two gens being done before they got a hook in when they were busy setting traps and didn't run Corrupt Intervention.
The players who see gen-rushing everywhere are clearly seeing gen-rushing in any scenario so yes they see it everywhere.
It's an effect that suffers killer bias in that a player hyper-focuses on "gen-rushing" and as a result only remember or count the games when it happens and gloss over the times it doesn't.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen just that it doesn't happen the extent to which people want to claim it does and if it is then how wide of net are they casting with their highly subjective definition of gen-rushing.
Players aren't immune to losing just because they've brought a regular toolbox.
(You see the correlation, right?)
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We cant take bad actors as evidence to then say tunneling is encouraged.
In lights out you do not need to be doing this to survivors. This is entirely up to skill/pressure by the killer side.
Here's some raw video and a quick summary I have made on 10 matches I played using, what many consider the weakest killer in lights out Nurse (not sure how much I believe it), not engaging in tunneling, camping, or rushing back to saved survivors. I won every match and only close to "losing" in two games.
First match: Good people, amazing match had fun. Survivors had fun, points to be had. Let em all go
Second match: Some mistakes were made/idk whats going on, claudette hatred maybe? Just wanted the match over to not drag anything out for the rest of the survs. Appologized and went next.
Third match: Good little trio of friends im guessing, killed claud cause she seemed a bit lost rather not waste her time waiting for a slug pick up. Survivors had fun, points to be had, had a slug race. Fengs are too cute!
Fourth match: Maria quick DCed made a decent blink play, understandable if you dont like nurse I get it. Noone went to save the bot, was gonna kill everyone in this match but then the server stopped responding.
Fifth match: Made a gen grab that did a large hickup not sure if the survivor DCed or crashed. Normal match just trying to go next, having a bot on your team sucks I know. They made it to a decent 3 gen though.
Sixth match: Very efficient team, probably because its ormond and easier to find gens, three genned themselves though. Kept running into laurie randomly. Good people, tried to refrain from just locking the gens down. Let them complete it and let the mikaela go.
Seventh match: Very efficient team again, oddly enough with all the down farming at the start. Ended on a good note with some pallets, let em all go. Good stuff, fun fun.
Eighth match: Poor wee Feng, she was not happy at the start, its typical nurse crap I get it. Gave the survivors some blinds, did the match normally got some kills. Hope they had some fun out of it.
Ninth match: Efficient team on lerys very surprising, hard to do as survivors in this mode. I felt bad for Steve and Nancy, they wanted that gen really badly but didnt leave the basement, and I heard them downstairs. Zarina/Mikaela were on point as well. Good survivors!
Tenth match: Played normally, didnt really do anything special. Felt bad for the Alan running into a door, didnt really want a kill like that. Let Feng and him go got some pallets, fun stuff. Good survivors.
Raw game footage 10 games lights out nurse play:
There is an argument to be made if you are facing ONLY coordinated SWF's but that does not happen, streamers with over 9k hours and play this game as a career do not have a majority of coordinated SWF opponents. So this argument quickly falls apart as it is over representing your matches for opponents you will barely face.
In lights out, you have the advantage of survivors not spotting generators as fast and the possibility of grabs/easy hits due to sight and terror radius reductions. This also applies to chases, as they will not be anywhere near as long, not just due to the absence of WoO but because they can't see or identify loops as well.
While this is only 10 matches that have been recorded and some wacky DC stuff has happened, I generally do not see any evidence to say that tunneling was required in any of the situations I was put in for these videos or for any games I havent recorded. Same could be said about camping, and neither is encouraged at all from what I can tell.
Will continue to record gameplay during this event as much as I can, from what I see though, its just horrible people that play killer side that want to tunnel/camp and then justify it for their lack of skill/pressure. As they are using tracking killers such as doctor/legion. Or even worse killers that circumvent vision like meyers/ghost face.
Good luck in your matches.
Remember killers: there are actual living people behind those opponents of yours. You dont need to ruin their day by playing like jerks. And you certainly dont need to play like that to "win".
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Facts. 9/10 of my survivor games in this game mode i had a tunneling killer. Most games were also legion, completely taking away the immersion and ruining the fun of the game mode
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Some people definitely bought Legion just for easy wins on the game mode lmao
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Different game mode with a ton of potential, same excuses for their top 5% MMR strategies (they are going against a solo queue team).
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This gamemode is a joke, will be funny to see stats after it ends
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I doubt they'll be shown, especially with the comments on their TikTok and Twitter being mainly about tunneling and miserable experiences.They'd just be supplying evidence to them that they are correct.
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Back in my day we were thankful to be tunneled. You young wippersnappers don't know what you're missing out on. Pallets as far as the eyes could see. Windows decorating the walls like paintings. Back when paintings were painted using paint. Not like these sheet metal plate thingies you kids are into. My grandson got me one of those and I cut my hand trying to put up. Who thought having a guillotine as a wall ornament was a good idea?
👴
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Hahaha.
Do not cite the Deep Magic to me, Mr_K.
I was there when it was written.
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No there is no correlation here. You've misused the term correlation.
Making the exact same point about a completely different unrelated topic in no way contributes, counters or provides further discussion of the topic at hand.
The topic being discussed in this case "have you been tunneled?"
The concept of survivorship bias is a universal one with respect to data in general. So while the same point can be applied to many complained about aspects of the game. It can't be used in the manner you have used it to make the point you are trying to make, simply because it's not relevant.
Its whataboutism for whataboutism's sake, in a weak attempt to undermine the discussion being had.
That's a lil debate and discussion 101 for you.
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It does counter it because one is used to justify the other and vice versa. It can be used in the manner I've used it because it is relevant, and it's not up to you to decide in order to make your point seem more valid. It's not a weak attempt to undermine a one-sided argument by providing the same exact argument regarding a supposed causation. If it is, you're technically saying your argument is equally as weak. Get out of here with your childish discussion 101.
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Again it really doesn’t, I’m sorry the snide attempt to counter my point by making the same point in an unrelated topic didn’t work.
Basically what you said agrees with me not counters me so I’m not sure what your goal was other than indulging in foolish “us vs them” survivor/killer tribalism.
I don’t think you knew what your goal was either or you wouldn’t have made such a foolish comparison.
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Foolish comparison? Dude I built my argument based on your points on a related topic that "causes tunneling" to show how they are easily counterable. They are therefore related, no matter how hard you pretend they aren't.
I wasn't agreeing with you, just pointing out how flawed your argument is and how it could be used to justify a different topic related (yet apparently not) to the issue. Point still stands. It's not an us vs. them because I play both roles so don't strawman the argument to tribalism lmao.
I don't think you knew what my "snide" goal was so don't pretend as if there wasn't any.
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You didn't build any argument you just copied the point for a different topic that it can also be applied to, which in no way undermines the point.
Applying the same point to something else in the same way only validates the point for the new thing too. No counter point has been made, if you think it has then you clearly don't understand how to make a point.
Here is the interaction as simple as I can make if for you
ME - The square is blue
YOU - The triangle is also blue... so there!
ME - What's your point?
YOU - I don't have one but they correlate... so there!
ME - Alrighty then.
That's the simplest I can outline the interaction and I can't make the example any more engaging for you as I don't have any hand puppets.
(I didn't pretend there wasn't a snide goal I pointed it out, this is my snide reply.. you're really bad at this).
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I have played DbD for 6 years and was really looking forward to the lights-out mode. I miss original DbD all the time and thought this would be a way to revisit that kind of play again. Unfortunately, it has not been that at all, it has just been players bringing new killers with built-in advantageous perks the OG killers did not have, then running back to every hook like a job. I really think they missed the mark by letting killers see gen auras and survivors see other survivor auras. No input would have leveled the playing field more and made tunneling more difficult. I also would have been fine with limited survivors and killers (maybe just the original 4 etc). I only saw 3 maps so limits could have been implemented. As you can see the game mode I really want is "DbD 2018".
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As you can see the game mode I really want is "DbD 2018".
I am interested.
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There are so many solutions to tunneling, or different game mode changes that ill do the job for the product managers here at behavior interactive (I'm looking at you Jerome).
- Remove notification triggers when survivor is unhooked. If there's no "notification trigger", then the killer who stepped away for a second is less likely to be "reminded" to go back.
- Add a "reward" for spreading the hooks, some examples include... expanding the killers FOV the more range of hooks the killer gets across survivors and call it (killers resolve or killers wrath). Another example... if you hook a different survivor, introduce a base kit bonus to the next time you damage a generator, it grants X% bonus penalty, make it snowball if you have to to entice killers to spread hooks so it balances the time you've lost looking for a new survivor.
- Create a perk or built-in ability that allows a survivor to "trade" hook phases from a survivor. Add a condition where it's only usable if base-kit BT is active (10 seconds) from a recent unhook and the tunneled survivor is within terror radius or chase. The trigger for the perk should be like "reassurance", where it's usable from a distance. Call the perk or base-kit ability "Humanities Sacrifice" or "True Altruism" OR make it an item you can use long range. That way, the killer still retains their "tunneling progress", but it allows survivors prolong their ultimate demise under "tunneled conditions".
- Killers seem to complain about "gen rushing". How about you introduce a new game mode or modify existing game modes so that it's not solely around "repairing generator" but treat it like Friday the 13th game, where survivor must "locate items and parts" to BUILD a generator or an escape item. Some examples include, finding X# of different chests or items scattered around the map. Alter existing perks to increase the time or effort to "pick up" the item. OR if you have to reuse code for generators, make it so that survivors have to build a generator and then repair it. The kicker.... the killer cannot see the location of the building generator(s). If you're worried about killers tunnelling the generator being worked on, survivors can find more parts around the map to build another generator around the map. Make it so the killer cannot see the location of the generator. They must first find it. However, the survivors have to continue running around the map to continue to find "parts" to build another generator. This makes the game more "cat and mouse" and puts more thrill in the chase.
- Add a timer for survivors who are getting hooked "back-to-back" and increase their chance to "unhook" themselves based on the built in timer logic. For example... (Time spent between getting unhooked + immediately being in terror radius or chase again equates to bonus +% to self-unhook).
- Grant tunneled survivors a chance to self-unhook on 2-phase and give free invisibility like Spirits power. Use the code you have around Spirit's invisibility as the framework for survivors and call it "camouflage" and give them temporary 100% iron will. Call it "entity fair play". In return for the killer... grant them a separate incentive such as... "entity respawn"; force a random generator on the map to change locations, OR allow the killer to respawn on the map in a random location OR
- Add a new item or perk that allows user to REMOVE A HOOK PHASE, make it only applicable to two phase hook survivors who are back-to-back downed. To balance it for killers, add a item or perk that instantly puts survivor on 2 phase hook but the conditions are based around tunneling and the survivor has to have 0 hooks.
- Make it so that killers cannot hook the person that just got off-hook, and call it "hook sickness" but in return the entity marks the altruistic survivor or highlights them to encourage fresh chase. Create the condition around FOV and terror radius. If you go after the same recently unhooked survivor, and are immediately in chase with them within X time (I'll let you define the conditions), then it will allow you to down them, but you cannot pick them up for X seconds. This creates opportunity for another survivor to come to get them off dying state.
- Tunneled survivors who are downed within X amount of time, cannot be picked-up to be hooked again. Call it "Killer's Fatigue", and make it so that if you down the same survivor within X seconds from a recent unhook, you cannot pick them from dying state for X amount of time (whatever you deem balanced). But, make it so it takes 2x more recovery in order to get back up and call it "Critical Injury".
- Make it so that killers who tunnel survivors lose points and makes it extremely difficult to rank up through that method of killing.
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