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Tunneling Problem Suggestion
I made a post in general to share my thought about that problem after I participated into a community tournament and realize how much more fun it was to play with their rules on both side and how I felt like I wanted to quit the game when I came back to the normal game. I also want to point out that a majority of my friends stop playing DbD for that reason: Tunneling.
Don't get me wrong, it's not just tunneling anytime, I know as someone who play both side, sometimes it's the only way to win. My problem is more people who are tunneling at 5 gens and do that on purpose because they can and they know it's frustrating, similar situation as face camping, you know people who like to troll others.
At first I thought that simply add incentive with points (like the BBQ) could partially fix the problem but from what I read, "points" would not change much and some people didn't agree to implement tournament rules into the game, as fear that could break their fun, which I absolutely understand.
After reading everyone answers and have some reflexion on the subject, I think trying a "tournament-like" mode, with the same rules as a tournament, but not a tournament, just the rules, could be a good idea, let me explain...
It could help to see how it improves the player base and how people reflect on the mechanics below. Also, I think the fact it would be a "mode" would make more people happy, because people like me could try a more "defined" mode and other people could keep playing as free as they want with the regular mode. So here are the ideas:
SURVIVORS
Rules:
- No duplicate perks
- No items (finders keepers allowed)
- No offerings
No duplicate survivors
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KILLER
Rules:
- Green or lower add-ons are allowed.
- Tunneling is not allowed (disable during endgame) : which you couldn't down a survivor after he got unhook without hooking a different one before.
- Can only slug 1 survivor max (possibly disable during endgame): after u kept a survivor on the ground for more than 15 seconds, the next one you don't pickup in the 6 seconds after your weapon cooldown animation stop, can not be picked up and can recover real fast with an endurance and running speed increase.
- Only allowed a cypress mori.
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SEASONS
Every season the devs could pick:
- 7 maps and 28 possible killers that can be played during that season till next 13th where it shuffles again.
- For each game that players start, there will be 4 random killers among the 28 possibles, OR it could simply be 4 random killers among all the killers and throw the 28 idea into garbage.
- The player who is playing killer would have to pick one among the 4 random, he could have the option to simply pick "random" and let the game pick the killer for him if he wants more challenges or just didn't know which one to pick.
- The lobby waiting times would be longer than usual, I don't know how much times should be appropriate so the players can negotiate/communicate perks or build for each of them if needed, but if everyone is ready, the game just go as usual.
- If the survivor does not care about his build or want some challenge, he can simply pick the perk "randomizer" that will simply random his 4 perks with what is left available.
IF THAT KIND OF MODE would exist, I'd be very happy, and I'd probably just play this one and the others that want to play more freely can still play as they want. I really do love the game <3 Please let me know what you guys think.
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EDIT #1
Maybe the actual solution is even more simple:
What do you think about that solution against tunneling: the moment a survivor is unhook, he is immune to be down until:
- He touch a gen.
- Start healing itself (not being heal by another survivor, I think it's already punishing to have two persons on healing and they could troll each others).
- Is fully healed
- Another survivor got hook?
During the whole immunity, the survivor cannot have collision against the killer, cannot drop palettes and cannot use flashlights...
Comments
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A randomiser would be great. The rest, not so much.
3 -
I am not sure I understand, you think simply a randomizer could fix the issue?
1 -
No, I just think it's the only good idea in this topic. It's a good idea independent of the theme of the topic itself.
1 -
the cant be downed part is dangerous.
is there like a fair timer that gives the surv time to heal an reset or is it until another surv is hooked?
cause what excatly hinders everyone else from hiding after unhooking the first hook and that guy just slamms the gens
6 -
sure in that case, I agree that everyone with random perks could be cool.
1 -
I'd say, you could not down him again right away in two minutes if you don't find another survivor to hook? If you hook someone else after, I guess you can down him again because he got times to escape?
But I could understand the possibility, that you could slug that person, hook another, and hook him again. I'd be more in favor of, you can not hook that person again until you hook another one. It breaks the tunneling. You are not chasing that person again right away after she got unhook.
What do you think?
0 -
Just say you want the game to die.
I don't know how anyone expects a general killer playerbase will willingly play a game that heavily restricts what they can do. Just because rules and restrictions work well in a tournament setting, doesn't mean it translates well to a casual audience. Tournaments are a much smaller pool of the playerbase.
2 -
the problem with all these anti tunnel ideas is the same.
would it work to deal with that specific case where a killer wants to tunnel a survivor out be it cause he is sweating to win or for any other reason? Sure.
but would it also be a absolut balance nightmare that bhvr will never handle the right way? 1000%
what happens if i am just unlucky as a killer. i dont look to tunnel but i have no chase the unhook is near me and i can just find the unhooked player cause the unhooker vanished? with your system im screwed i lost time cause the system protects the surv. that surv is btw going to do the next gen cause he is safe from everything or do you plan to make the protectet survivor unable to progress the game untill i hook the next one?
another example would be the survivor missplaying. he does not hide he trys to heal right under the hook he basicly begs to be hit again. should i now dont get to hook him again and get something out of my enemys mistake?
what i want to say is there is more to "oh he tunneld me" then just a killer wanting to be an ass. an anti tunnel system needs to be very very well thought out to not inflict harm. and survivors already showed that they are quick to find any way to weaponise stuff like that. the original anti tunnel system bhvr testet didnt came out cause the test survs turned it into a weapon in no time and at this moment looking at the anti facecamp feature and the anti 3gen feature i dont think bhvr can handle such a system.
the best would honestly be to first try to balance the game as much as possible and then tune down chapter releases to focus a big part of there people into overhauling the whole game. the whole hooks and sacrifice thing is in itself part of the tunnel and camp problem.
the killer hooks the surv and tecnically the game wants him to keep hunting but often its way better to let the pray come to you cause then you may get two on a hook but atleast you slow them down by half there power.
if the surv would go from the hook into a prison of some kind where he would come out after a fixed amount of time the killer could start hunting the second he truns around after a hook. there would be no urge to stick around and defend what you caught cause its gone and you directly know i got x time until the survs are back at full power lets see if i can capitalize on that.
that idea would eliminate both tunneling and camping right there on the spot but it is far from perfect and brings like hundred new flaws with it.
i really dont think there even is a real fix for tunneling. maybe in dbd2 when the whole thing is designed diffrently from the start.
2 -
No, I am trying to suggest solution because I want the game to stay alive and even revive.
You didn't read, or you read but didn't understand, I said it would be a mode, not a game changer, if you still want to play the way you want, you can because I understand that. You also didn't understand that it was not restricted on one side, it's on both side, survivor can't do whatever they want neither.
Like Can you read without getting carried away by your emotions?
I think the pool is smaller because people are afraid and think it would be worst than a casual game, or they are not interested into tournament because there is no real price neither, I was not before I tried. I also think no one would have been interested into a "lights out" mode before it came out, people tried, was it successful? In my opinion not that much, but it was interesting.
0 -
Absolutely.
It needs to be well thought but I don't think it's impossible. This thread, will also help me more to define an absolute solution, as fair as possible for both side. More people bring stuff like you say, more it become easier to see all possible sides. There will probably be like, "edit" on the thread as it come forward with ideas.
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what happens if i am just unlucky as a killer. i dont look to tunnel but i have no chase the unhook is near me and i can just find the unhooked player cause the unhooker vanished? with your system im screwed i lost time cause the system protects the surv. that surv is btw going to do the next gen cause he is safe from everything or do you plan to make the protectet survivor unable to progress the game untill i hook the next one?
another example would be the survivor missplaying. he does not hide he trys to heal right under the hook he basicly begs to be hit again. should i now dont get to hook him again and get something out of my enemys mistake?
I understand that point of view, what if the moment that survivor:
- Touch a gen
- Start healing itself (not being heal by another survivor, I think it's already punishing to have two persons on healing)
- Is fully healed
- Another survivor got hook
He is not immune anymore. If the killer just follow the survivor, he is loosing his time by it's own fault of being silly and it's not about luck or not in that situation. What do you think about that?
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what i want to say is there is more to "oh he tunneld me" then just a killer wanting to be an ass. an anti tunnel system needs to be very very well thought out to not inflict harm. and survivors already showed that they are quick to find any way to weaponise stuff like that. the original anti tunnel system bhvr testet didnt came out cause the test survs turned it into a weapon in no time and at this moment looking at the anti facecamp feature and the anti 3gen feature i dont think bhvr can handle such a system.
Oh I get that, when I play killer it happens really often that I got ######### talk in the end game lobby for not letting people unhook safely but like... I could hear their foot steps running toward the hook, instead of waiting for me to get away, that is their mistake but that is part of learning that unfortunately some players will never learn, not much we can do about it.
I think the anti facecamp is somewhat fair, it's not too fast, not too slow, you still have play around the hook if a survivor is trying to abuse, he will get hit eventually or will need to leave the area. I feel really better since that system is there because I don't see camping Bubba anymore that juste hook and wait in my face. It's less FRUSTRATING and more FUN. (I really want to emphasize the concept of fun vs. frustration, because a lot of people mix fun and frustration with winning or losing, when that's not the point here).
I also think the 3gen feature is fair, the max gen kicking of 8 times, because at some point it just never end, with all the perks that regress gens, it was starting to become hell even if you played well the entire game till that point. I think it's fair that if the entire team is alive, even if they 3gen, they can still succeed, except that if you are 3gens and there are 2 survivors, it doesn't change anything, maximum of 8 kicks or not, they are probably in checkmate you know.
So yes, it needs to be done carefully, I agree and I think they are doing a somewhate good job so far with what they can do.
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the best would honestly be to first try to balance the game as much as possible and then tune down chapter releases to focus a big part of there people into overhauling the whole game. the whole hooks and sacrifice thing is in itself part of the tunnel and camp problem.
I think at some point they will not have choice to go back at the root of the game, I mean, there is not infinite additionnal content possible (except maybe cosmetic) and we already can see some struggle with the knight or flashlights recently. I'm speaking through my hat because I have no idea why they are having problems recently, maybe it's not due to the limitation but maybe because they are redoing the code, or changing their method of work and forgets from time to time to push pieces of code, whatever. If they don't go back at the root, well maybe they will start working on DbD2 like you said.
I still believe that they could test solutions in the actual DbD that we have and learn from it, for the good of the actual game or the next one.
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the killer hooks the surv and tecnically the game wants him to keep hunting but often its way better to let the pray come to you cause then you may get two on a hook but atleast you slow them down by half there power.
if the surv would go from the hook into a prison of some kind where he would come out after a fixed amount of time the killer could start hunting the second he truns around after a hook. there would be no urge to stick around and defend what you caught cause its gone and you directly know i got x time until the survs are back at full power lets see if i can capitalize on that.
that idea would eliminate both tunneling and camping right there on the spot but it is far from perfect and brings like hundred new flaws with it.
hmmm I am not sure about that part. I believe there is a lot of way to put pressure on survivors: Like hitting them under endurance to force them to mend or get mend, force them to do totem, like with hex: plaything, without the tournament rules, you can slug. There is a lot of perks to block gen progession or regress generators, like:
- Corrupt Intervention
- Dead Man's Switch
- Deadlock
- Eruption
- Grim Embrace
- Hex: Ruin
- Oppression
- Overcharge
- Pop goes the weasel
- Scourge hook: Pain Resonance
- Surge
- Thrilling Tremors
In exchange what do survivor have to fight against tunneling? They have:
- Decision Strike
- Buckle up + For the people combo (that require a team mate around, so -1 person less doing gens)
- Sometimes they can use Power Struggle
- Flashlight + Background player (that require a team mate around, so -1 person less doing a gens, need to succeed and if the killer does not have lightborn)
- Sabotaging hook (that require a team mate around, so -1 person less doing gens, need to succeed)
They also buffed the amount of damages that is done on a gen when kick.
So I am not sure about that part... Need more evidences.
0 -
Thing is, sure it's fun for you to play this way, but it's not a realistic idea for public matches. Playing against bots sucks, free will and unpredictability is what we're here for. Making a killer not tunnel is like making a survivor not get gens done as quickly as they can. I love the idea of a killer getting BP+ for not tunneling, but if the killer can't decide, why is the killer playing?
I don't tunnel as killer and I don't enjoy being tunneled as survivor, but it's just part of the game. Once you see it's happening, you do your best. The killers that need to tunnel usually aren't as skilled, often newer or even brand new. There's a good chance they're struggling to secure one kill, everyone else has a good shot. A good team will interfere with tunneling, that's an objective, keeping each other alive. That's what ya gotta do.
0 -
You are saying that MMR allow new killer to play against good survivors? ô_o what's the point to MMR then?
I also said it would be a mode to try, so there is no "sure it's fun for you to play this way..." if you want to play as usual, you will still be free to do as you wish with the normal mode, but we could test how people respond to that.
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Making a killer not tunnel is like making a surivor not get gens done as quickly as they can.
Well, it's already on place with the following perks that you can equip more than one of them and the buff of gen kicking and the fact that it takes more time now to finish a gen than back in the days, I am not sure at 100% but I think it was 80 seconds before:
- Corrupt Intervention
- Dead Man's Switch
- Deadlock
- Eruption
- Grim Embrace
- Hex: Ruin
- Oppression
- Overcharge
- Pop Goes the Weasel
- Scourge hook: Pain Resonance
- Surge
- Thrilling Tremors
- Thanatophobia
- Hex: Pentimento
- Call of Brine
In exchange what do survivor have to fight against tunneling? They have:
- Decision Strike
- Buckle up + For the people combo (that require a team mate around, so -1 person less doing gens)
- Sometimes they can use Power Struggle
- Flashlight + Background player (that require a team mate around, so -1 person less doing a gens, need to succeed and if the killer does not have lightborn)
- Sabotaging hook (that require a team mate around, so -1 person less doing gens, need to succeed)
A killer have plenty of solutions against gen rushing abuse. I think that the argument of having good team mates perhaps works more in SWF but not in solo Q.
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I don't tunnel as killer and I don't enjoy being tunneled as survivor...
Good, but it does not stop that 90% of my solo Q game, someone is getting tunnel. Seriously, if it was not a recurring problem, I would not do a thread about it. Even if I go out, even if it's a 3/4 out, it's just not fun, were you saying that face camping bubba was part of the game too? :/ like of course it was, but it was not fun, so they did something about it.
Post edited by Frizouw on0
