How do you feel about kills speeding up generator times?
Let’s be honest, once there are only two Survivors left in a trial the match is mostly over. It creates a really awkward situation for both players. Usually I will find the other Survivor and give them whatever item I have, point to the exit gate, and then go and raise hell around the level making noise so I can get the Killer’s attention and give my teammate a chance to survive.
Obviously this isn’t usually how it plays out when two people are left. Sometimes one betrays the other, sometimes they hold the game hostage and sometimes they just give up.
Wouldn’t it be nice if no matter how many people are left in the trial, you still have a chance of completing generators?
I really think that generator repair speeds should speed up every time someone is killed. This gives hope to the people that are left as well as maybe helps fix tunneling a little bit so that Killers who want a longer game can have one if they spread the “love” around.
Of course if it is too powerful tweaks would have to be made like making the base time repair speed take longer when there are four Survivors. What are your thoughts on this?
I give credit to @xEa for helping spark this idea. Their idea was similar but instead of kills it is hooks. The only reason I deviate from hooks is because it would feel awful to get 8 hooks and gen speeds are too fast. I prefer the speed up to revolve around kills that way there is still hope for even two Survivors left.
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I actually quite like this idea. It would encourage killers to focus on hooking different survivors at once because getting an early kill would be detrimental for them for the rest of the game due to generators being faster.
As compensation though, killers should be able to see the hook counter that survivors can see, that way it gives them an idea of who they should or shouldn't hook in order to avoid generators going faster by 'accidentally' tunneling someone out.
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That used to be a perk
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I don't think this is a good idea to be honest.
If we were to implement a repair boost for survivors simply based on the amount of their dead team mates this would also provide a problem in matches that are naturally close. Picture an even game where everything is still open, until someone gets caught and dies with only 1 gen left while the killer has 7 hooks in total. The other survivors would need to get a considerable boost in their repair speed to make up for a lost team mate. This would allow them to easily get the last gen done get out through the gates. Even when the killer didn't tunnel.
This poses an issue because these close matches usually happen when a killer does not tunnel. But now they are punished regardless with the only way to circumvent it being not to kill that survivor. Meaning, they could do pretty much everything they want and the killer has no way to interfere other than maybe slugging them. But slugging doesn't work that well, when you can't kill that person anyway since you invest a lot of time just to get one person away from gens without actually progressing. Unless you go after the others and slug them as well.
So in theory this whole thing would heavily incentivise slugging multiple survivors at once and wearing them out like that. Which would probably mean a higher pick rate for Knockout as well. I think this is not a desirable outcome.
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The problem is just this punishes the killer for completely their objective.
Survivors wouldn't like it if every gen they got done slowed down their action speed.
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Thank you for your perspective. I was wondering what the drawbacks would be. And you’re right this would be a side effect.
It feels like a “pick your poison” kind of situation. Personally, I could deal with being slugged if it meant there was always hope of escaping. But I honestly don’t know how the player base would react overall. I suspect they would like the increase gen speeds but obviously hate being slugged.
Thank you for participating. I truly appreciate your perspective. It’s helping me think about the issue of two remaining survivors.
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Yeah that’s very true! It just feels broken that once the Killer gets two kills then that’s pretty much the match. Not always, but often.
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It's a 1v4 asymm game. Of course the killer is going to be stronger when they start picking up kills. If survivors could easily 1v1 the killer there would be a huge problem.
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No amount of extra gen speed will incentivize survivors to not betray each other when there are only 2 survivors left. And no amount of gen speed will help when there are 3 people left since the killer will cycle and always have: A single person hooked, someone going to the rescue and someone being chased. Because those actions are non negotiable for your survival you cant do gens and therefore gen speed doesn't matter.
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I’m on the same page as you, I completely agree. What’s hard for me to reconcile is that a 2K is an almost guaranteed 3-4K. It doesn’t sit right with me.
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I think hatch should be interactable and closed when 2 survivors are left, leaving an objective to be done(searching hatch) instead of hiding waiting for the other person to die. Also would make keys slightly less terrible.
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I can respect that idea for sure.
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I think there has to be some different way. I respect your opinion of course but I think this would a very unhealthy gameplay loop overall. I also doubt that the majority of players would be willing to put up with extreme slugging. Especially with perks like Knockout, that are surprisingly strong in the right build. I have played Doctor on the game with a slugging build (Knockout, Caulrophobia, Distressing, Brutal Strength) a few times and so far I haven't been beaten. It's extremely nasty and it leaves survivors with almost no possible way to get out on top.
A base kit DS (although the 3 seconds version with some adjustments) and stronger anti tunnel perks as well as an incentive not to tunnel would be an alternative. Of course there would be side effects as well but I think they wouldn't be quite that bad. I'd rather a survivor with DS take a hit and me having to slug them because that is avoidable. I could also think of some ways to work around that. Although the best one I could come up with so far is based on protection hits, which is not the most consistent mechanic in the game.
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Left Behind used to increase generator repair speed when you were the last one alive, but that perk got reworked to find the hatch.
They later added this effect to sole survivor.
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So you either make Killer to Force them to play majority of game 1vs4 which means fast gens and hard time or you just punish them for doing their job. Yea, I don't see any problem with that one.
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Yeah… I see where you’re coming from.
There just has to be a way of fixing the game when there’s only two Survivors left because right now it feels kind of busted.
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Maybe the starting gen speed can be slower than it is now. It just feels wrong that at 2K the match is mostly over.
If it’s too brutal for the Killer then there would have to be other changes. Regardless though the 2 Survivor situation just feels broken.
Thank you for your input though I really appreciate these different perspectives.
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Thank you for the credit.
There is one missunderstanding with my original idea
The only reason I deviate from hooks is because it would feel awful to get 8 hooks and gen speeds are too fast.
Not quite. The repairspeed would not be faster after 8 hooks (if even by maybe 5%), it would only disable the penalty of repair speed.
My idea was basically the same with some ballance tweaks and in my opinion the only way a system like this could work. Otherwise it would be to oppresive for killer.
Like i mentioned in the thread, survviors have to start with a repair speed penalty, which gets removed after a survivor is hooked a second time. I think this is absolutly essential.
Eventually, when a survivor is killed off, repair speed has to increase tremendously.
The game would still be very even, but it basically forces killer to spread hooks. Tunneling and killing off a survivor would not be nearly as effectiv as it is right now.
On the other side, there is no early game gen rush, so the killer is in no stress at all. They are actually dictating in which scenario they want to live in. Tunnel and get gensrushed in mid/late game or spread hooks and dont tunnel.
Like some people mentioned (for example @Xernoton ) it has some potential issues. For example slugging will become more popular. But to be fair, slugging is not nearly as effective as tunneling, but when survivors are having the penaltiy, it might become very oppressive indeed. Hard to tell how ballanced this would be, but it would definitly lead to slug meta and eventally slug perks getting nerfed.
IF we follow the idea of a repair speed boost ONLY after one survivor is killed, it hast to be a minor boost. For example 5% penalty before first survivor is dead and increased repair speed by 5% after the first one is killer.
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I don't like the idea because the Killer STARTS at a disadvantage; He can only be in 1 place, while Survivors can be in up to 4 places at once.
This idea basically removes the entire point of the Killer getting hooks and kills; His momentum being built.
Now, instead of slowing down gen speeds by causing Survivors to do other things; They either get faster, or break even (Depending on the speed buff via this idea) for the Survivors still doing gens.
It misses the point that the Killer is supposed to build momentum by hooking survivors, and instead takes all that momentum away by removing the slowdown from Survivors as they are hooked/dead.
Survivors should not get a 'reward' or 'buff' just because they are starting to lose the match, which is what this idea does.
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I could do that if you add the survivors aura becoming more noticable if they are repairing with a speed buff. That way at least I have a chance to get to you.
Tit for tat.
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The problem is that early elimination, particularly via tunneling, builds too much momentum. One survivor gone with multiple gens left to repair is a lost game. The killer shouldn't automatically win just because they killed one survivor out of four. That's like survivors powering the exit after 1 or 2 gens.
This makes tunneling too profitable, too rewarding, too justifiable.
Speeding up gen repairs as survivors are eliminated isn't necessarily putting the killer at a disadvantage, they're just not at as much of an advantage. Gen speeds could be increased by as much as 33% per survivor eliminated, and the average potential progress survivors can make will still be less than what the living survivor could have contributed. So each survivor eliminated would still be, on average, in the killers favour.
That said, I do think the point about it being an issue for very close games is valid. I don't think it should be flat increases for eliminated survivors, but should scale with both survivors and gens.
- Each survivor eliminated increases repair speeds by 10%.
- Each gen repaired decreases repair speeds by 5%.
This would mean that a close game wouldn't change too much, 4 gens and 2 survivors would cancel out at 20% +/-, and by spreading hooks and actively avoiding early sacrifices, you actually curb on genrushing a little. It would almost be like making Thanatophobia basekit only when survivors genrush, and Resilience/Deja Vu basekit only when killers tunnel.
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Oh yeah I forgot this was a part of the perk cause people only run it for exit gate builds
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This is a good idea! If one survivor dies before three gens are complete, remove 15 seconds from all gens like the brand new part game mechanic. This should only happen once with the first death.
If they're down to two gens or less then a death should do nothing.
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Uhh...No?
Survivors would just spread out gen repairs, someone dies, and then four gens that were 70% or higher insta-complete or go to 99%? And you don't see how that would be heinously OP?
The Killer gets 1 kill & then the exit gates are powered. No way.
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I would really only want it to happen if the same survivor was re-hooked within X amount of time. I'm just throwing numbers out, but maybe if the same survivor was hooked consecutively within 60 seconds. All the other survivors gain a stack of vengeance/determination/grit/whatever that boosts repair speeds up to two stacks if the killer hard tunnels someone out. I wouldn't want the survivors to get rewarded if a tunneled player is actually making the killer chase long enough for their teammates to do the gens anyway.
And maybe 15% repair speed boost tops, and that's only possible the same survivor is hooked 1-2-3. Not enough to totally replace a 4th player, but enough to make the killer think twice about it.
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Its not the same. The speed/time required for killer to get another hook is still the same. You just have less time to do what you are doing.
The equal comparison is survivors have is they have less time to do Gen, which exactly how it works when a teammate dies.
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I think they are actually talking about Last Standing:
This perk was an early version of Bill's Left Behind. It remained in the game's files for a very long time, which means cheaters could actually use this perk. If I am not mistaken it also affected healing and vaulting.
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I'll buy into this if we also have a mechanic to slow down gen repairs if the killer is falling way behind. That's only fair, right?
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It would be nice if there was something to give survivors some sort of boost if someone dies early. It's massively demotivating when someone gets tunneled out or just dies early on before much progress is made. I'd be happy if BHVR just made it harder to tunnel someone out before the match really gets started. Giving survivors a buff because someone decided to 4% on first hook seems somewhat unfair.
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I came up with a fix to people who try to 4% (Or ragequit on the hook):
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/405044/remove-killing-self-on-hook
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I think the most fair change is 4 survivors have repair strength of 3 (25% debuff), and 3 survivors have strength of 4 (33% buff)
Can't take something without giving back another.
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No, because not everything is a 1:1 equivalent thing
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So if Survivors are losing: Give them a boost.
But if Killers are losing: Not everything is a 1:1 equivalent.
What a biased take. Just perfectly shows why this game is a slog for Killers.
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I mean it still kinda is. They just moved it from Left Behind to Sole Survivor.
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In that case, the killer won. Survivors failed. Why give them a catch up mechanic? Why bother even playing killer and doing the objective if it makes no difference in the endgame? If you kill 2, survivors get super speed and knock gens out fast. If you don't kill, survivors get super speed in numbers and knock out gens fast.
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What sense does it make that if you manage to kill 2 survivors, you should be given the last 2 kills for no effort?
You haven't killed 4 survivors, you've killed 2, 2 out of 4.
This is like survivors powering the exit gates after 2 gens if they get repaired fast enough.
This snowball effect isn't something survivors have access to, and is solely what makes tunneling so effective. You've ended the game early for one or two survivors, and then damned the remaining survivors to a hatch game or worsen before the games even really begun.
Tunnelling should remain a valid choice for the killer but it shouldn't be the single best option, and scaling objective speeds based on eliminated players is a way of modulating that, and fine tuning the single variable that makes tunneling ridiculously over-rewarding.
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gens are repaired way too quickly already...
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I disagree. 2 of us left at 3 gens, if we play smart and careful we have a good shot.
I'm not very good, either, I still miss skill checks and can't get out of a chase, pretty new to survivor. As a longtime killer, I thought there would be lots of "it's hopeless now, how do we make the most of it?" but that's not been my survivor experience. Most the time those gens ain't cold, if 2 of them are halfway done, you're on easy-street.
I hide and do gens, that's all I'm ok at, put me with another player like me and we can do 3, maybe 4 gens while the killer runs back and forth trying to see us. Put me with a powerhouse Steve that does nothing but keep the killer busy, that works, too. Those both happened last night.
I had a God-awful one where no gens were done when we started dying, it was Legion and no one could get anything done. 2 of us got out, though, because the constant trying to work gens had most of them close to finished. I was tempted to kill myself on hook during that one, glad I didn't.
It's a challenge, but you'll win more if you just refuse to give up. More rolls of the dice, once you're doomed, you can be more heroic.
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gen speed is something that shouldn´t increase, toolboxes for example arre and will always be the most OP item in the game, but if bhvr buffs every killer to be a B or A tier i actually would like this idea
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I strongly dislike this idea.
Firstly, in terms of "feel goodness," it feels awful as killer. You're winning, but you're punished for it. Yes, obviously dying feels bad as a survivor but that's not the point. The killer accomplished their goal but now has a punishment. It just feels bad.
Second, part of playing survivor is protecting your teammates. Take the aggro for someone dead on hook, have that person keep low, and generally do whatever it takes to keep them alive because a teammate that's hiding and not taking risks is still better than someone that's dead. Now, that entire dynamic gets thrown out the window. Doesn't really encourage fun or interactive gameplay, if anything, it discourages it since someone dying makes repairs faster and any rescue/ save attempt is risky.
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Yeah I see where you are coming from. It’s like no progress is being made for the Killer and they are just spinning their wheels in the mud.
I guess it really comes down to how the game really is, is it a 4v1 or a 1v1v1v1v1? Because if the Killer kills 2 as a 4v1 then yeah, the game is pretty much over. But if it’s the 1v1v1v1v1 then it feels like every kill should make the game a smaller microcosm.
Regardless, it just feels like a huge waste of time on the Survivor side when half the team being eliminated pretty much means the game is over. Even when it’s just one player eliminated it kind of feels that way.
But again, I totally get where you are coming from. Let me know if I am wrong but you believe that killing one survivor should be a bonus or a reward in addition to the elimination itself. Meaning it should handicap the Survivor team in some way. If it doesn’t then the Killer is doing work for no payoff (except for the fulfillment of the elimination itself.) Did I get it right?
It’s doing work but getting nowhere. the Killer should be receiving gains from the work. If not then it feels like a punishment. And I agree.
The mindset is that slowly eliminating Survivors makes the game easier. What I was thinking when I created the thread was that each elimination should make the game smaller, kind of like the danger wall in a BR game. I assumed the elimination was the reward in and of itself, instead of a tool.
Thank you for taking the time to participate and entertain the idea. I’m glad you wrote what you did because it's given me much more to think about. It still doesn’t sit right with me that 2K is pretty much ggs. It feels a little bit like a thorn.
But again I respect what you wrote and it is valid in my opinion.
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If the killer is getting two kills though they've earned that, it's not broken, just the survivors didn't play well enough.
Punishing either side for doing the objective is bad imo.
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I’ve acknowledged your first point in a comment to @RpTheHotrod . And I can see and agree with the point being made.
Your second point is one that I haven’t considered. You’re right. Survivors should be forcing the Killer to spread hooks as much as possible by taking protection hits etc.
I decided to write this post because it doesn’t feel right that the game is mostly over at 2 kills. That’s the Survivor side of my brain. But if I’m being fair but tough to the Survivor side, Survivors absolutely throw themselves unnecessarily at the Killer. Survivors play with such little patience that it loses them the game. People don’t take aggro or protection hits too often. The thing is that it feels awful when you do those things and still lose because your teammates don’t understand. And that will always be the case, hence where my mindset was at when created this post.
But you’re right, if the Survivors want to win, they have to play smart. And I see how my proposal circumvented that. You can see where I was coming from though right?
Overall you’re right. It takes agency away from the team and makes it too punishing for the Killer. I just wish there was something two survivors could do when their other two teammates are eliminated. The answer is, spread hooks and don’t die in the first place right? But it still feels so weird that a 2K is pretty much a forecasted loss. Idk why it feels so bad but it does.
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Yeah for sure I see that. It’s crazy how easy it is to sink the Survivor ship and how few Survivors catch on and learn to play as a team.
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I keep trying to understand why would the penalty be removed at the 2nd hook when there would still be four survivors left? Why not once one is eliminated?
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I agree with you overall after seeing everyone’s thoughts. I even think you're technically right.
I mean I guess the consensus is that if at 2K there’s still 2-3 plus generators left there’s really not much the remaining two can do, they should have “played better”. Which of course leads to MMR and how often it creates teams where the more skilled Survivor has to carry the least skilled Survivor.
Idk, anyways as with everyone else in this thread thank you very much for entertaining the idea and participating. It’s nice understanding why some ideas are/aren’t reasonable enough to implement.
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That’s amazing. I hardly ever see that in my games but I do believe you. It’s too bad it’s not more common in my personal experience.
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For ballance reasons.
Lets assume there is a 25% penalty before one person is dead, this would make it almost impossible for survivors to win. Tunneling is not the only viable strategy, in fact i win most of my games with hooking survivors and then pressure gens.
AKA creating the cycle where only 1 survivor is usually on a gen while the others are either on the hook, rescuing or getting chased.
If i have to go with my gut feeling, it has to be either no penalty or slight buff for survivors once 2nd hook stage is in play.
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Thank you for putting down what I was trying to convey. It really does feel off that a 2K is pretty much a 3-4K.
I mean I get the argument that if the team played well and there is only one generator left then the two have more of a chance to escape vs if they have to complete three gens because the team didn’t play well.
But like you said it still doesn’t make sense that a 2K translates to a 3-4K. I mean I suppose the answer is that it translates to a 3-4K if the team played bad which I can see as valid. But idk… I keep going back and forth with this one.
In my eyes I see every kill as making the game smaller. So when two Survivors are left the game becomes a mini trial between the last three players: The two Survivors and one Killer. I mean it’s kind of like that when there’s only one Survivor left and the hatch just got closed.
Idk, I get where everyone is coming from. I just wish a 2K wasn’t mostly an automatic loss for individual Survivors.
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I see. Thank you for replying.
I personally have different thoughts but I respect yours.
For me, it’s hard to use gameplay style to determine what is and isn’t adequate since the MMR will eventually put you as the Killer into a position where your play style is good enough. Again not to disprove your experiences, I am just of a different mind.
When it comes to 2nd hook vs first kill my reasoning is that if Survivors start with a penalty to repair speed; be it 25% or even as low as 5%, if all four are alive most of the match because the Killer is going for the 8 hook then the penalty should be doing its job and they should still make adequate progress.
I see however where you are going with the 2nd hook idea. First, is it the 2nd hook of the game? Or is it the first 2nd hook for a Survivor? Let me know where I get it wrong.
If you mean a Survivor’s second hook: All Survivors start with a penalty to gen speed. Once one Survivor reaches their second hook, then the game goes back to normal dbd rates. Once someone is killed then the repair speed goes up. So the best way for the Killer to get value out of this is to hook everyone once then start another round of hooks until 8 hooks are achieved then go for kills.
If you mean the 2nd hook of the match: The Killer has a small window of slower gen speeds. If the Killer double hooks one Survivor then they eliminate the penalty, it goes back to normal dbd rates. The Killer is then one hook away from making gen speeds faster. If the Killer hooks two different Survivors then the game goes back to normal dbd rates. And the Killer can now spread hooks making use of their early time given from the penalty. Did I get that right?
Thank you again graciously for taking the time to flesh this idea out.
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Precisely why in my first post, I suggest it should be a system that scales with both kills and gens. This dampens the snowball effect for either side, and doesn't take victories away from the killer if they're valid victories.
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