[Patch 7.5.1] Sadako is still trash
Comments
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Passive condemn on tapes makes no sense because the whole dynamic of tapes remove condemn but also give condemn is confusing, old sadako was tapes give 1 stack and probably ~1 more stack on a big map so you spent the whole time to remove 1 stack of condemn. Maybe have some punishment for having a tape for an extended period of time but condemn isn't it
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While we are at the *sigh* part: nothing you wanted to say to my reply in regards to Myers and his addons? It's not ok to mori a survivor in less than 5 minutes if they don't make massive blunders. If you want a killer that just destroys while being rather simple, I strongly recommend Nurse. I feel like I told you that before.
if your talking about in regard to that myer's game, they did do massive blunders. that is why they lost so quickly. You said 7 minutes for first condemn mori is too fast so I showed how Myer's can do a mori in 2 minutes which is more then 3x the speed.
The game you showed me on Lery was way too far from my usual killer experience in this game.
You seem to just disagree with me for the sake of disagreeing. If you don't want to play Sadako, that's fine. There are a bunch of other killers you can play, that might be a lot stronger for less effort. I like how she is and will defend her and her unique and special playstyle.
I will use Cammy's footage because this first game is excellent showcase of what high MMR Sadako looks like. you cannot look at game 1 and say that the killer is good. You can continue to disagree that current sadako is good design but I will point out the flaws the killer. Cammy's explanation 10:00-11:00 for how you counter Sadako is exact explanation that I saw in the PTB for why I immediately saw this killer as dead on rival. His explanation is why Sadako cannot be a good killer in current iteration.
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Oh hey its me. Yeah I think the first game is a good showcase.
I wasn't going to leave the explanation part in between the 2 matches, but it was just everything that I've been saying summed up, so I figured it would get a point across. I am glad someone saw it <3.
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Good times!
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Sadly it’s true, that she will only be a noob stomper soon. After everyone understands her power, there won‘t be much you can do.
I have two types of games: Survivors struggle against condemned and I kill everyone at 5 gens or I don‘t get kills (without tunneling) and no one is near to getting condemned.
The Problem why tapes need a downside is; survivors take away two powers from her, condemned and mobility (basically everything).
I really like her first version, because no one interacted with her TVs and taking tapes was really threatening. That meant you could apply condemned freely (only limited by your own skill) and your mobility wasn‘t hindered. To make condemned stronger, I would have made it dependent on the proximity to the one tv. I know you will disagree with the last part, because you liked her second version.
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I don't want to be that guy, but do you want to try a build that is completely focused on spreading condemned the most efficient way?
Your build is... not good.
Try Discordance, Stbfl, surge and hex face the darkness.
This build is amazing for people learning her and people that are already great with her.
The Perk you could change is Stbfl for corrupt if you want, but I like faster chases.
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Myers does NOT have this power in his base kit. Truetalent uses the strongest addon combination in the entire game to do this. Combined with a build that makes it even stronger.
You compare that with Sadako? Really?
Sadako has no sich addon. No killer really does. Even Blight doesn't have any addon, that is on this level of ridiculousness.
Sadako's best addons to spread condemned are ring drawing, videotape copy, tape editing deck and remote control. That's it. The iridescent tape is not as strong as it used to be and doesn't give any quick condemned anymore.
Did you read the messages I wrote you after the Lery's match I showed you?
I told you that this match was not played well on part of the survivors and that I played really nice. A match, that showcased how strong she CAN FEEL if survivors mess up drastically. I also told you that I have way more matches against better survivors to show you. I even asked, which one you would prefer to see. Please go back to that thread to look up these matches. I posted 2 more there. If you can't find it, I will try to find the links again.
FOR THE LAST TIME. SHE WAS NOT GOOD WHEN SHE GOT RELEASED LAST PATCH. I think I said that loud enough. Many players did. She's now undeniably better but still needs tweaks.
2 second tape insertion
No auras shown to survivors
Addon pass (for real this time)
I DID SAY THAT SHE IS IN A GOOD SPOT, NOT THAT SHE IS PERRFECT BY ANY MEANS. Cammy also uses a sub optimally build. Playing Sadako = playing around condemned. Pwyf is bad. Sloppy is not good, survivors will simply ignore to heal because Sadakos chase is bad. Stbfl is way better. Surge is great because you don't want to kick gens. You have to manage your time. What he needs is more info to spread condemned more effective.
DO YOU WANT TO SEE MORE OF KY MATCHES?
If you don't trust me that I'm also going against better survivors, I played against Knightlight 2 days ago. I won. All recorded. If this players is not in the upper bracket, I don't know what to tell you.
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Was it? Nobody took tapes. The only situation where passive condemned came into play is when Sadako successfully predicted the target TV and camped it. Then the survivor that was not able to insert their tape got passively condemned. Leaving them with no real counterplay. Ignoring tapes all together sure had upsides in giving Sadako full control over tvs, but it also had a huge downside. Gen speed increasing drastically. Sadako is based around survivors walking around the map, inserting tapes. If this is completely ignored, we have a killer with an alright secondary ability, good map mobility, awful chase and no slowdown. That's Pig in way worse.
She was better than good old Piggy in some regards (addons / maps) but other than that, and for the majority of players, Sadako was worse than Amanda.
The only upside to passive condemned back then (that was not unhealthy) was, that survivors didn't pick up tapes. With how fast TVs can apply condemned right now, the same interaction would be WAY too strong. If survivors completely ignore her power right now, they get condemned in a matter of 1-2 minutes max. Therefore having flat out passive condemned is bad.
Having it set in after a minute of the survivor not doing anything with their tape OR taking another tape out of a different TV sounds a lot more balanced to me.
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She wasn‘t perfect for shure, but buffs would have brought her in a good spot and reworks weren‘t needed.
I think my idea with proximity based condemned would have made her a lot stronger and that way she would have been able to stay how she was. I‘m not against the buffs she got and others she could get in the future, but the key element how she worked, was the best back then.
Now she is mostly only a noob stomper, who his hardly dependent on the survivors being bad and playing against good survivors makes you feel powerless. Back then I didn’t feel that way, I could use her in chase, how I wanted with no real problems. Now survivors can make themself almost immune to condemned and her tps with no downside, which makes her powerless most of the match.
I don‘t think reducing a killer to being a noob stomper is good design and making her almost useless against good players at the same time.
She was fair back then, yes a lot of problems, but they could have been buffed easily to take them away.
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Myer's power is at base-kit when he uses both add-on's. This is his default power.
FOR THE LAST TIME. SHE WAS NOT GOOD WHEN SHE GOT RELEASED LAST PATCH. I think I said that loud enough. Many players did. She's now undeniably better but still needs tweaks.
She hasn't changed between patches in significant way to alter her state. She has same problems as PTB.
If this is completely ignored, we have a killer with an alright secondary ability, good map mobility, awful chase and no slowdown. That's Pig in way worse.
The killer is suppose excel at
-> Skip hooking states(Mori)
-> Map mobility
-> Anti-loop flickering
Pig is suppose to excel at
-> Game-delay
-> Stealth
-> Ambush dash anti-loop.
She is not worse. She has different strengths. Her current none of kit is functional because condemn is ineffective vs good players showcased by Cammy game 1 vod, Her map mobility is non-existent vs good players due to Cammy's explanation 10:00-11:00 and her flickering remains ineffective since her debut to the game.
I have two types of games: Survivors struggle against condemned and I kill everyone at 5 gens or I don‘t get kills (without tunneling) and no one is near to getting condemned.
That leads me to believe that the killer is unlikely to change because killing everyone at 5 gens shows the killer is effective.
The Problem why tapes need a downside is; survivors take away two powers from her, condemned and mobility (basically everything).
My thoughts on old iteration is that tape mechanic of gaining passive condemn promoted exploit old legion-deep wound type gameplay. I do not care to elaborate what released "old legion-deep wound type gameplay" means but the player that were able to play that version will understand what i mean by that.
I know you will disagree with the last part, because you liked her second version.
I liked her second version because it allowed her to be overpowered while simultaneously being under-powered when the survivor was competent at chase/looping. I would be less concerned about the killer if the killer was a monster at the chase but current iteration excels at nothing.
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You just hear what you want to hear, do I see that right?
You just pick the points that fit your argument and ignore the other points.
Myers is not at base power, when he uses addons. No killer is. Base power is base kit killer without any addons. Myers can NOT mori a survivor base kit. He needs either the purple tombstone piece (the strongest addon in dbd) or the iridescent tombstone.
Sadako is a game delay killer just like Pig. Both killers have a secondary objective that delay generator progress. Pig can also kill survivors with traps. I get head pops every third match. I even got a head pop against knightlight. All on twitch if you wanna see that. Pig has stronger delay on specific survivors. Sadako forces survivors to cross the map multiple times in order to insert tapes.
Both killers have a mori mechanic if the survivor ignores it. Pig is better in chase while Sadako is better in mobility. They work pretty similarly.
I have ~2200h on Amanda. I know what I'm talking about.
The "flickering" works alright. It's just situational, just like the ambush.
You have to know when to play m1 and when to go for your ability. The buffs to chase are really good. Especially with fingernails. I even got to outplay a shack with it. It's not bad. Not the best, but not bad.
On the Ptb she had some issues, mainly:
-2 second insertion had to stay because tapes where no threat.
-auras shown to survivors where too much info.
-addons are horrible with the exception of 5 to 6
-gideon meat plant is just dumb
These where the main points of frustration.
For some reason, they decided to nerf her from the Ptb. Many, including me, where very disappointed with these nerfs, which is why she got buffed now. The buffs are very welcome and especially the removal of the cooldown helps a lot.
I hate to repeat myself, but: she's undeniably better than what we got after the Ptb. Is she perfect now? No, there are still things that have to change.
I encourage you to read everything I read and not just pick the sentences that fit your argument.
Last but not least, do you want to see some matches? (I repeat myself because you didn't respond to me asking the first time.)
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I disagree that she is entirely a noob stomper. She can very much perform well against better survivor teams and also coordinated swf. She will not compete with your 4man comp squad. But let's be honest, 90% of the killer roster does not compete at that level. That's a balancing problem that is not Sadako specific but has to be dealt with in a game overhaul.
I dont know how you play her, but I feel anything but powerless. It's stressful for sure, but she is a lot stronger base kit than back then. I have enough experience to say that and I think most other Onryo mains can agree. Sure, she does not have addons like iridescent tape or ring drawing anymore, but that's a good thing. Both addons encouraged a very unhealthy playstyle and elevated her way above the power level she was supposed to have. She was a complete sweat fest back then if you wanted to perform well against better teams without these addons. Most of my matches had me at max stress level, because her power was lacking. Now her power level is higher. She's still a sweat fest but not as bad as before.
I have no problem being concentrated for 12 minuted. I like it. I play Amanda and Sadako for that reason. It's strategic over mechanical skill with the exception of the ambush. I like to be challenged and use strategy while playing. Both killers give me exactly that.
I completely understand that being at 100% focus for the entirety of the match is not something all people want to play and that's why I'm all for buffs. But we can't make a mori mechanic so strong, that it competes with tombstone piece Myers. That's unhealthy. The way the devs have made it, is buffing her mostly in chase. I very much appreciate that because it opens up new ways to play her and strategize around that.
She still needs tweaks. That being:
-2 second insertion
-TV auras removed
-Addon pass (for real this time)
-Changes to Gideon meat plant
(-passive condemned after a minute of holding)
Is she unplayably D-tier dumpster fire? No. Not by a long shot. Dedicated players find and found ways to make her work. We always do. She's a decent killer that needs a bit of help. Help that hopefully comes sooner than later.
But saying that she needs more help than og Sadako is just downright wrong.
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But saying that she needs more help than og Sadako is just downright wrong.
I‘ve said, that we don‘t needed those reworks, buffs would have solved the issues and that I want her old mechanics back.
I don‘t like to be forced to play for condemned, but at the same time you have to, because her mobility suffers a lot since the last two reworks (1. rework cooldowns; 2.rework Tv auras and no tape downside). Everyone turns off TVs and there is no downside. Often survivors just run around and disable my power entirely when I‘m in chase.
I never had any issues with her being weak and I never wanted her to be only strong when people don‘t know or ignore the counterplay, which is the case right now.
You will see her getting weaker with every week that passes, because she will be weak as soon as people adjust.
I don‘t ask for her to be op, when I want her old version back like you said she was weaker, but at the same time you had more options and you weren‘t that limited by survivors skill. My idea would have made her condemned better and would still allow me to play like I want to.
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I adored her old version, but I would lie if I said that she was fine. She was extremely unhealthy if played well.
I honestly dislike it when people differentiate in her power. Sadakos power is to condemn people. That's what she does. Playing around condemn = playing Sadako. Everything else is just Wraith and or Dredge.
Condemn is her power. Her mobility is the second ability if you ask me. TVs are like aoe bombs. You use them to blast survivors. Using them to get around the map is just the added functionality for me personally.
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I would agree with this and I hope behavior sees this too. If we are going to Rework a killer not once but 3 times let’s just make sure we get all the kinks and crinkles out while we are already focused on that character and it’s still fresh.
Tapes absolutely should passively condemn after a certain amount of time of holding onto them 💯 agree. Hoarding my tapes for 80% of the game is unhealthy gameplay. Spending exorbitants amount of time trying to get tapes back from multiple survivors that are hoarding them is also unhealthy and now I am wasting my time while 2 people are popping gens out left and right.
Behavior did well recently, really well at making Sadako much better. There are still just a few small adjustments that need to be addressed then she will be complete.
I just don’t want to see a quick Hotfix of “Hey we fixed the main issue….kinda…well 70% of it but hey that’s better than what she was, let’s move on.”
The job needs to be finished respectfully. 🙏🏼
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once again, your taking my post very literal creating misunderstanding.
I am saying that if you have enough bloodpoint and main killer to p100, you can use the said add-on every single game because you own 1000 add-on of the same copy. As such, the add-on is base-kit because your equipping the add-on every single game.
Sadako is a game delay killer just like Pig. Both killers have a secondary objective that delay generator progress. Pig can also kill survivors with traps. I get head pops every third match. I even got a head pop against knightlight. All on twitch if you wanna see that. Pig has stronger delay on specific survivors. Sadako forces survivors to cross the map multiple times in order to insert tapes.
Sadako is not game-delay. this is another propaganda non-sense. She doesn't force survivor to anything beyond pick-up a tape because it is free counter-play with no drawback. Cammy explains this a little bit in his video between 10:00:11:00 but I will draw this on paint to explain it. You can go to a gen, pick-up a tape, do the gen, then go to a television drop the tape in, do the gen. If everyone on the team does this, you disable her condemn mechanic because TV is off for whole 70 seconds and no condemn stacks are ever build-up because survivor immediately removes any condemn build-up. Your doing a gens while simultaneously having no game-delay because locations your dropping the tape off are locations that you would be walking too because that is where generator is located.
5 second game-delay with 1 second insert timer is laughable game-delay. It is not game-delay. it is a joke. Pig has capacity to mori survivors because Crate of Gear + Bag of Gear is over-tuned game-delay that has been produced from the buff that pig received few months ago after her nerf on deathslinger/Spirit chapter where they added 5th box to her base-kit but changed the Jigsaw box logic to include 12 jigsaw searches which has resulted in pig having rng like 1/4/4/3 where a majority of her revear bear traps are amounted to 3/4 searches. 4 boxes searches with 20+ second jigsaw is amounting to mori's in her power. Nobody complaining about this because Pig considered to be unpopular weak killer.
The complaints that have started with Pig have been recent where I made a joke build revolving around using Infectious fright, Thwack! & Face the darkness that revolved around causing survivor to scream during their jigsaw search in attempt to mori player with pig. This was not consider serious build but recently new perk was added. This perk is called ultimate weapon. It causes survivors to scream on command upon opening a locker and many players such as Otz have said that this synergy is "unhealthy". So now you can make mori-based pig builds due to added perk synergy. Player are only raising awareness to this perk synergy because Ultimate weapon is valid strong perk unlike previous iteration which included a hex totem, Thwack! which might as well be some D-tier joke perk and Infectious fright.
Despite Pig having a free mori-build, Pig is still not considered good because her chase and stealth is poor. In any case, Pig is scheduled in March to receive some changes so I guess we shall see what kind of changes are given to pig. This is huge tangent in regard to Pig which has absolutely nothing to do with Sadako's current state.
On the Ptb she had some issues, mainly:
-2 second insertion had to stay because tapes where no threat.
-auras shown to survivors where too much info.
-addons are horrible with the exception of 5 to 6
-gideon meat plant is just dumb
These where the main points of frustration.
Does address game 1 problems with Sadako. her problems are kit design related.
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For you yes, not for everyone and condemned shouldn‘t be the focus of her power. Condemned is also extremely unhealthy if you ask me.
People should be able to decide themself, how they want to play and not be forced to play one particular way. That was why I dislike her first rework and it repeats again.
Her biggest problem of her first version was; that she was weak, which made people play in an unhealthy effective way to compensate. I did not play that way and I had a lot of fun, which games should be: fun not a struggle on both sides.
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Im making propaganda? OK man...
No. Having the same addon every match does not make it basekit. That is absurd. Agree to disagree.
Sadako's slowdown is considerably lower than Pig's, but it is still there.
I'm glad that you don't lack a sic understanding of Pig's rbt. 1-3-4-4 is indeed extremely oppressive. You dont even need addons to get head pops. Having survivors do anything else other than searching boxes can result in a head pop if they have 4 searches. This is the true power of pig. Survivors have to make difficult decisions. That how I beat knightlight and viewers. They made the wrong decisions. You dont need any screaming related perks to accomplish this result. You dont need addons to accomplish this result. All you need is the correct Rng. Ultimate weapon is not as good on her as people say. My simple explanation: when your in 32 meters around the survivor, interrupt them yourself. Easy as that. Your there. Why are you not doing it yourself? A good pig always knows where people are. At least I do. I memorize pathing throughout the match.
Please don't bring popular content creators in this. They are also just players. I only brought in Knightlight, because you seem to give a lot of credit to these types of players. I don't. They are at the end of they day just like us. People playing this game. In my match with knightlight, he could have been any random pubs Kate. He didn't play any different way.
In terms of Sadako, I helped making her the way she is now. At least I think I did. If you want to crucify me for that, do it. I gladly take that blame on me.
If you think her base kit overall is flawed and should be completely removed, I have to say that we can stop discussing her at this point because we will never come to any agreement. I support her kit and think she's in propably the best/healthiest spot she has ever been in. Please keep in mind, that I don't think that best and healthy = strong. Nurse is not healthy for the game. 2.0 Sadako and OG Sadako where not healthy for the game. Og Sadako was a sweat fest without busted addons and 2.0 Sadako was a mindless spam fest with counterplay that was way above the input that Sadako had to do.
My proposed changes to her kit (no the ones I brought up where not problems of OG Sadako)
- 2 sec insertion of tapes
- no aura shown to survivors
- passive condemned sets in after one minute of holding a tape OR taking another tape out of a TV
- addon pass
- changes to Gideon meat plant
2 second insertion was not a problem of og Sadako. She had that base kit. Auras of TVs are a new problem since the Ptb. Her addon situation was bad back then and is bad right now. At least she doesn't have very problematic ones anymore. Just a lot of bad ones. The Gideon meat plant was problematic back then as well and passive condemned was something that was also a mechanic back then. That much is true.
I give the ball to you know because I'm tired to repeat myself. What would you propose that changes about her? You just stomped on and talked down my ideas for as long as I remember and made them look bad. What do you think should be added, since my ideas seem to be so bad from your point of view?
Last but not least, if you do not like Sadako, that is fine. I don't like Wesker. There are a ton of characters in dbd. Not everyone is to everyone's liking. I like Sadako. I fought for her. I continue to fight for her. I'm dedicated since she came out.
But I have to say, that I think that new Sadako is here to remain for a while and will not see major reworks anytime soon. She got reworked twice in 9 months. That's a lot of time investment from a dev team that is known for having little time for major changes between big releases.
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Thank you friend. Now I don't feel so alone on in this court room.
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“I am saying that if you have enough bloodpoint and main killer to p100, you can use the said add-on every single game because you own 1000 add-on of the same copy. As such, the add-on is base-kit because you’re equipping the add-on every single game.”
Yeah, hold on. No…The word “Basekit” and “Add-on” dont go together. Period. It doesn’t matter if you have 578 of those addons. It’s NOT Basekit.
“Sadako is not game-delay. this is another propaganda non-sense.”
This is also completely incorrect. If you’re playing her correctly and condemning people, they should be wasting more times putting tapes away…What does that mean? Gens are not getting done nearly as fast…That’s called a Game Delay. Gen Slow Down.
I won’t comment on pig 🐽 since I have limited knowledge.
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Condemned her thing. It's not unhealthy for the game, just difficult to balance.
What other killer has this problem? If you play nurse, you can't do anything else but blink. If you play blight, you are supposed to use the lethal rush. Pig? Use bear traps. Wraith? Cloak and ambush. Slinger? Shot survivors. Spirit? Phase and hit survivors.
This is the power of the killer and condemned is Sadakos power. Not playing around condemned means that you ignore half her kit. If you ignore half of her kit, she will always be bad for you. Same as when you don't put bear traps on survivors as pig because you dislike the mechanic.
I'm rooting for a buff to iri tape. This would actually open up a playstyle that would be right up your alley. No condemned but unlimited map mobility.
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Im so grateful to you...
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Couldn't disagree more. Current Sadako is fine, stop changing her. Just because she can't tunnel people out of the game in the first few minutes doesn't mean she's weak. The condemned is supposed to be a distraction from gens not a free kill.
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I'm glad that you don't lack a sic understanding of Pig's rbt. 1-3-4-4 is indeed extremely oppressive. You dont even need addons to get head pops. Having survivors do anything else other than searching boxes can result in a head pop if they have 4 searches. This is the true power of pig. Survivors have to make difficult decisions. That how I beat knightlight and viewers. They made the wrong decisions. You dont need any screaming related perks to accomplish this result. You dont need addons to accomplish this result. All you need is the correct Rng. Ultimate weapon is not as good on her as people say. My simple explanation: when your in 32 meters around the survivor, interrupt them yourself. Easy as that. Your there. Why are you not doing it yourself? A good pig always knows where people are. At least I do. I memorize pathing throughout the match.
let me break down your statement.
1) Statistically, you do not have enough time to head-op someone without those add-on's if a player immediately begins searching the boxes, so yes you do need them vs good players.
2) "Ultimate weapon is not as good as people say". It is as good as people say it is in regard head-pop pig. Your explanation doesn't work because one of tips for playing vs pig is even if you hear TR, you should keep searching the box. Another tip vs Pig is to not waste pallets near Jigsaw boxes because it is vital that the player who searches jigsaw has a pallet nearby because it allows player to feel safe searching jigsaw such that survivor can calculate distance to get to the pallet. Now that I have covered the basics, the reason why Ultimate weapon is good is because you can predicting survivor pathing with jigsaw boxes and mathematically time the jigsaw search to reset 1-2 second sooner before search completes. In essence, using a scream perk forces survivor to 5 jigsaw boxes instead of 4 jigsaw boxes. If you know anything about Pig's history in regard jigsaw, you might remember that Pig used to have add-on to increase total number of Jigsaw boxes. The add-on was called Jigsaw's Sketch. This add-on was nerfed and no longer grants +1 jigsaw boxes on the map. Instead it gives +1 reverse bear traps. This was major because her traps were random so having 5 jigsaw boxes meant that you could get a 5 box search reverse bear trap and this was especially strong with Tamper Timer as it reduces bear trap timer by -30 seconds which is now -20 second. This add-on was also nerfed in deathslinger/spirit update.
To further talk about add-on Crate of Gears and Bag of Gears, these add-on only add 2.2 second and 1.65 second on paper which does not sound a lot however when you have search 4 jigsaw boxes. The cumulated time added from these add-on's amounts to a 5th jigsaw search because 3.85 x4 = 15 seconds.
Still watching inexperienced players such as Conconuts video on head-pop pig is funny because a lot of people will try to force the mori on pig by chasing after survivors in reckless fashion in desperation for Mori's when Pig's power for Mori is more like indirect mori that happens over-time.
But I have to say, that I think that new Sadako is here to remain for a while and will not see major reworks anytime soon. She got reworked twice in 9 months. That's a lot of time investment from a dev team that is known for having little time for major changes between big releases.
I agree. I do not see any reworks any time soon. She might get pig treatment where dev randomly fix her mori like how pig received the 12 box rule though i do not see this happening for at least 3-4 months. So for now, she is likely to stay underwhelming.
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You are not listening and you don‘t want someone else to play like they want. You can‘t compare killers with only one ability and pig, who‘s second ability is useless. It‘s like saying you don‘t use half of her ability, because you don’t crouch. Before the first rework her main power was the tp, that only shifted with the reworks. It was more of a side quest before, that you could force.
I think condemned was only intended to be a small threat to make her stronger, that survivors don’t turn off TVs and to fit the lore more.
Iri tape won‘t do anything. It makes things only worse! The iri has to make her like the first version with unlimited tps to be somewhat good. With Tv auras, no strong passive condemned and no condemned ability it removes all slowdown and rewards survivors for removing everything this addon is supposed to do (it does not serve its own purpose).
Condemned is unhealthy, because it is always the number one complain about her. Also old iri tape allowed good mobility and you argue against it, because of condemned, which shows the double standards!
Post edited by jonifire on1 -
Underwhelming for you.
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Nobody said it was suppose to be a “Free Kill” that I can see here in this thread unless I am overlooking it, but you think it’s okay for people to insert directly in her face without her having a counter or a drawback at least to hoarding a tape?
Also if she was done right the first time there wouldn’t have to be continuous changes, the devs I am sure are doing their best I give them that truly. 🙏🏼
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Im listening to other people. I'm not telling people how to play. I'm suggesting strategies that work based on literal thousands of hours of experience. Same as any other main of a specific killer. If someone want to get her to work, I offer support. If they don't want, they don't have to follow my suggestions. Everyone can play how they want. Im also open to new strategies. I would just love to see gameplay of it working to understand it's effectiveness.
If you wanna talk about piggy, I'm very knowledgeable. Which ability of pig is supposed to be useless? If you say the traps, you are wrong. Downright wrong. Her stealth can work. Ambush as well. Pig works. She's just undertuned in terms of chase.
Now to Sadako. No mechanic is unhealthy because people complain. People complain about anything. That doesn't make it unhealthy. Slugging people for 2 minutes and ignoring hooks is unhealthy gameplay. The undeniably strongest part of og sadako was iri tape + ring drawing and slugging for condemned kills. Tp was not the main strength of her. Never has been. A killer with the best map mobility in the world is bad when the chase is lacking. Condemned has always been her biggest strength. It's a mori that is not related to hook stages.
IRI tape allowed one thing for the most part. Fast spread of condemned because cooldowns where non existent. It was the strongest addon for condemned slugging. That's why I'm against the old effect. It encourages slugging over hooking. Same with old ring drawing. The new effects are overall more healthy. Just introducing old iri tape right now would make her incredibly unbalanced against most pub gamers if that addon is used. I'm very certain of that. My idea for the tape would be: no survivor can interact with TVs. Only Sadako can and the TVs don't turn off in case she uses projection. That's extremely strong map mobility at the cost of condemned.
At the end of the day, we both dont and can't know what was supposed to be Sadakos main aspect. But I do think it has always been condemned. Sadako is an onryo. She curses people and kills them. If her curse is not the main part of her power, that would be anything but lore accurate. My main argument is, that her strength has always been condemned. If you wanted to make og Sadako work against good teams, you had to play into condemn. Her chase was awful and her stealth very mediocre. A killer could be on each survivor all game, but if they get no hit or down because there just isn't anything but m1 gameplay on very strong maps filled with structures and pallets that lack counterplay, all that map mobility serves no purpose at all.
Old Sadako had huge cooldowns. This is a change I feel most people just ignore. Her cooldowns have switched and got reduced. Both cooldowns are way lower. Og Sadako did not have unlimited teleports. She got hindered by 90s cooldowns if I'm not mistaken. This has changed drastically. The cooldown of a survivor turning it off is now 70s right? That's lower than before if Sadako turned it off. Back then, turning TVs off was bad for Survivor because it took longer for the tv to turn back on if Sadako projected to it. That has changed. Something that we suggested back then. A buff based on constructive feedback.
Constructive feedback. That's what I'm here for. I want Sadako to be in a healthy spot. She has always been troublesome due to her complex power. Right now she's in the best spot she had ever been. Definitely not the strongest. But the healthiest.
All killers have a power. Condemned is the power of Sadako. If you want to play her without it, you can absolutely do that, but she will never be strong by any means. Pig will hopefully receive buffs to her stealth and ambush. Then stealthing around as Pig will finally be worth it without combat straps and medical file.
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To be honest I'd rather they keep her as is than try changing her again and inadvertently making her weaker. In my opinion, she's fine at the moment (although Bloody Fingernails is a bit crazy), if you make the most out of information perks and add-ons you can punish people who hoard tapes and turn off TVs. I've been playing her as a normal chase Killer using demanifest mind-games, using teleport to cut people off mid-chase while still pressuring condemned and have gotten consistent value. My go-to build RN is Lethal + Floods of Rage to keep tabs on where people are and help with punishing tape hoarders, and Deadlock/Pop to stop gens from flying by, and Fingernails for the zoomies and comb for added info. Works pretty consistently! Ideally they'd disable the ability to see TV auras while in chase so tp mindgames can't be predicted as easily, but she's decent as is for me.
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I'm not even a Sadoko main and suck at her and I agree with this. I do believe in the right hands she can hold her own in this new version. I just wish they made few more smaller buffs to help new and avg players a bit more. Like the things you listed. I said before in this thread my first night on her wasn't great. Out of 6 games I won 2 of them and the rest I suggested really hard to get 3 hooks. As I mentioned I'm not sure if it was how I was playing her, my MMR being to high thanks to 2.0 being so easy or a combination of the two. I'm going to try again tonight sometime to see how it goes, hopefully better because I be honest I didn't really like the feeling I had after the other night. I'm going to use your suggested build to see it's better as well.
Either way I agree with most Sadoko mains on this thread and other others where they say she in a better place now. I really do think that but I also think she needs more help. I like to see 2s tapes back, TV auras changed, tapes having more risk to them, addon made better (especially if they add a addon that makes her lullaby map wide for more stealth gameplay) and lastly I like the limit on condemned rise to 4 or done away with completely. The limit I can live with as long as all the other things are addressed.
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I've been testing out a bunch of different builds.
Not sure why you think pwyf is bad though, I have been using it based off one of the Best Onryo's In The World from Team Creed, who has played a lot of Onryo against some of the best players, even team Eternal, and they say often times PWYF is banned in Comp because of how strong it is giving free hits and downs with that extra speed.
Pwyf helps against perfect loopers that you couldn't hit otherwise.
I just still need to learn how/when to farm the stacks to be most powerful.
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Everyone is catchable. It's just a matter of time. From my experience, Sadako is more about condemn spreading than about chasing. It's up to the player to decide when and where to chase survivors.
My build is entirely focused around that playstyle.
Sadako doesn't have enough time to build up pwyf stacks. It's a secondary objective for the killer. I dislike having more work on my desk. That's why I use surge. No kicking. Less time wasted.
I focus all my time on strategic condemning. Stbfl is there for the important chase that I do commit to.
The other perks (Discordance and face the darkness) have amazing synergy with condemned.
You can of course play how you want. Just a suggestion from me (4th highest in steam leaderboards back with OG Sadako / have played against many comp players including knightlight.)
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I never said she was perfect, I only meant, that her concept of threatening tapes and local condemned was the best back then. They had only to buff her not rework her. If it wouldn‘t have been that difficult to condemned people, then people would have played healthier. I‘m also happy with the buffs she got over time (cooldowns, anti stun etc), but I want the first version to get those buffs and not this version. The addons also weren‘t the problem, it was that most people had to play slugging to get someone condemned, because it was the easiest way. I think my idea would have solved the issue and the buffs she got. For example with lock in most people would have hooked people and the proximity based condemned with 24m 0,5stack, 16m 1stack and 8m 2stacks would have made condemning someone far easier. All in all these things could have made condemned better and keep a good teleport gameplay.
I‘m not saying this rework is bad. In my opinion her first concept was just the best and could have been buffed easily to make her healthier. Most sadakos I played against back then, also didn‘t play like you say. Most of them played like me and shure they went for the condemned guy, when the killer instinct appeared, but getting condemned was really rare back then.
Overall I‘m fine with the rework, when they remove the TV auras and make grabbing tapes not a free win (passive condemned). Addons could be done, but if that is all I can complain about, so be it.
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No. Giving the current buffs to old Sadako would not have been fine. Some of her addons where not healthy at all. The best contender was ring drawing. This addon alone was strong enough to encourage slugging. The removal of healing of the ground was the best decision in terms of addon changes, she ever got.
I very much know how she played back then. I was 4th on public steam leaderboards. Onepumpwillie also played against very high tier comp swfs, showcasing how effective and ineffective condemned was.
Sadako was a really interesting killer. Otherwise I would have never pushed for a revision of her rework. This is why I started my account on this forum. My first post was a 15 min read on the feedback of the Ptb back then.
I loved old Sadako due to her being a challenge and the high strategically skill cieling but would have to lie if I said that she was without flaws or even in a good spot. Condemned slugging was the main thing people complained about. Sure, nobody did have to play her that way. I tried to find strategies to get people condemned without ring drawing, iri tape and slugging. Thats where my build comes from. Slugging was not the easiest, it was the only way to get condemned be a real threat. My games back then had me sweating and concentrating for 10-20 min straight to maybe get one or two moris. It was extremely hard but rewarding. Slugging with ring drawing and iri tape made all this way more oppressive and yes, also easier but mostly elevated her power level by a considerable amount.
If she had old ring drawing right now, people would still slug. Hooking takes a lot of time. Sadako has really good mobility. Slugging is just the logical solution if you have an addon, that rewards it with free pressure. I use ring drawing right now almost all the time. Why? Because it rewards me for hooking. That's healthy gameplay.
The version we have now is pretty decent and worlds better and healthier than the two versions we had before. This is not an opinion. This is a fact. She needs further tweaks, but not another entire rework, just as you said.
I think we can all be pretty grateful that this patch even happened in the first place, although it was not necessary to change her that much in the first place.
That we, as a community, had such influence on a character that is played around the world by thousands of people is insane to me. BHVR does not owe us anything. We are only players.
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The fact that we have almost over 300 comments is wild. Behavior. Please take one more look at this before you move forward. I will also move my thoughts over to this thread.
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So breakdown in a nutshell Behaviour to keep it brief.
Excellent rework/fix! - However there’s still a few issues. Biggest issue being Survivors shutting off TVs asap denying condemn and mobility.
*Tape insertion of 1 second is too short.
*TVs are getting turned off too quickly without much punishment so no condemn, no mobility either.
*If survivors hold onto a tape after a while, it needs to passively condemn them. This is a big issue. Survivors are hoarding tapes. (If you wanna keep 1 second insert that’s fine but this option would be perfect! 🤩)
ADD-ONS BELOW 👇
*Iri addon videotape - too much risk, not enough reward.
*Yoichis fishing net should be a condemn addon again. Ring drawing is the only direct condemn addon…we have no variety at all for condemn and it’s really sad. I don’t wanna have to be forced to use 1 singular add on)
*Rickety pinwheel, seasoaked your punished for using these addons.
*VCR is useless due to auras on TVs.
*We have 2 blindness addons, why 😭mothers mirror should be Basekit, it’s not worth using by itself.
*Well water should be buffed to 2.5 or 3. It’s pretty weak for a green. (They hear the audio cue of you coming anyways. So ineffective)
*Tape editing decks functionality was best on OG sadako. Currently is meh for purple…😭
*Well Stone - 7 seconds out of 70 from a survivor. I get its yellow but….ew.
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What build did you use against Knightlight might I ask?
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I played Pig against Knightlight.
I used Stbfl, Surge, Lethal and bbq. But i could have had no perks to be honest. I won just because of Pig alone.
On Sadako, i would still very much use my main build.
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Here's my thoughts post-patch:
She still has very little condemned pressure if survivors know how to touch and hoard tapes.
Her lullaby removes her stealth still.
TVs having an aura is a problem, or at least the size of the auras is a big contributor.
Add-ons still need a lot of love, Iridescent Tape needing a complete rework and the current effect put in a brown addon for meme builds.
Everything else does feel good, don't get me wrong, but Sadako's biggest weakness will always be the M1 curse. If she doesn't get a chase power (which I doubt we'll get a balanced one) then consider removing the lullaby. She's loud when she manifests and gives enough of a tell with that sound (which could be shown as a lullaby instead of the constant one) and her visual effects on approach so at the very least she has a stealth edge.
Post edited by ChaosWam on1 -
Yesss Iri tape should be the meme add on. Perhaps make Mothers Mirror Base kit, and then make Iri tapes effect take that place, and then completely rework Iri Tape.
Also Reikos What to 50% Please!
- 2 Second Tape Insertion
- No TV Aruas
- Passive Condemn (This is really needed since all 4 survivors grab a tape at the start to just work on their gen with no pressure at all. Removes mobility, and any sort of slow down pressure that she has cause no condemn for 70 seconds. )
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PWYF used to be good in Sadako 2.0 because you only needed 1 hit to break the tape which rewarded killer 2 condemn stacks. The new version does not have this mechanic so PWYF is not as good or rather, it is as good on her as any other regular m1 killer.
Condemn Sadako is like Scratch Mirror Myer's now. It relies on you picking Gideon's map offering or Hawkin map offering to be relevant. On all other maps, she's m1 killer now if survivor plays correctly and is high-level looper. you can beat people below your skill-level as killer but not very best anymore.
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A good killer does not require too much setup to make them work. Nurse, Blight, Oni, Plague, Wesker, Huntress and many others can work with any build that player can make, leaving a huge customization and replayability value to their gameplay experience.
I disagree with the takes of radiantHero23; and I don't wanna hear you beating "the best survivor" with The Pig or build suggestions.
Sadako takes too much time to setup her true power, applying Condemned to survivors. Manifestation/Projection is extremely weak against other killers with Stealth/Teleportation abilities. In 7.5.1, The Onryo is just budget mix-up of The Dredge/The Pig. No one really require to risk themselves to do side objective; as putting Condemned stacks to players takes too much time, even when you're using a build specifically to tailor that aspect of the killer. 8-10 minutes to get advantage of Condemned stacks; only to be countered with 1 second interaction in a 7-9 minute game.
She's just a noob stumper now; any player that's above 500-ish hours can easily counter her. Funny thing is, you're way better to go with being an M1 killer instead of forcing Condemned, and at that point just go play someone else. There is no passive Condemned generation, there is no downside holding a tape, tape can't be broken and can be sidetracked at a point where it's build up to 7 stacks. There is too wide margin for mistakes that players do.
Before this update, you're forcing players to do the side objective, like The Pig for example; you can't just ignore it - the ending will be lethal. But for The Onryo's case, it takes too much time to get a lethal result, and can be countered with a second of interaction. You have to gave too much effort to caught players in a 16 meter of Projection, and keeping them away from TVs, while also trying to stop the others that doing generator progression.
I can't suggest anything now, I believe she was overtuned, now overnerfed. The bag is too fumbled now, she's reworked to be restored in 6 months, and her kill rate is just a result of that. Players don't know what to do, but soon enough, people figure it out and she's going to only stump noobs and do nothing in high skill ceiling.
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After looking at two content creators play Sadako without focusing heavily on Condemned and taking the rework of Iri tape into account, I am beginning to think devs are trying to push players to play Sadako as a high map mobility hit and run Killer especially with Iri Video Tape and Bloody Fingernails together.
With the basekit buff to the Post Projection movement speed, Sadako can cover a lot of distance in a very short period of time after teleporting. For Sadako players who know which direction to path after coming out of the television, Survivors don't have a lot of time to make it to a pallet or vault before getting hit if they are near a television. Keep up enough of such hits and they eventually transition into downs.
This strategy of course has an rng aspect of being map dependant. For maps with lots of clutter/multiple floors, the televisions may spawn very far away from the gens/spawn below a gen on the 2nd floor.
I might try this playstyle for a bit instead of making Condemned the main focus of the build
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Iri tape is bad because they can turn off all your TVs for way longer and you can't punish them cause no way to build condemn, so they can turn off 6 of them and be safe forever.
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