SWFS are only 3% more likely to win than SoloQ (OFFICIAL STATS)
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There are plenty of things the data is showing that show it is flawed, but there are some interesting things it shows.
First the flawed things:
- Skull merchant being the best killer in the game
- Nurse being one of the worst in the game.
- Pig, sadako,freddy, dredge, myers being so high
- Huntress, Twins, Chucky, Blight being so low
- Doctor being so low despite being mid tier
- Survival rates solo vs groups being way off (you can't tell me the thread topic is truly accurate)
- Self-care still being one of the most popular survivor perks
Now, interesting things it shows? I have though about this for a while but look at the survivor perks that are at the top. The biggest outlier there is windows of opportunity and lithe, but what about the rest? Every other perk there is a perk that you get for free, either through one of the free survivors you start the game with, neutral perks everyone has access to, or from david who you get for doing the tutorial.
Now look at the killer perks, they are simply just using some of the best slowdown perks in the game all non-free ones.
This shows to me, that survivor players as a whole are probably more "average" players whereas killer players are more veterans because they are using the better perks while survivors are using the free perks. This actually makes sense to me, given that there are more survivors to killer players. So it stands to reason that there are more "average" survivor players than there are killer players. Leading to the stats to be skewed so heavily this way.
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Ok then, so you believe that skull merchant is the best killer in the game, and nurse is one of the worst? And that is accurate?
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Stats will also never show that many killers contribute to lower the KR by giving the hatch to the last survivor or that they sometimes farm from the start of the trial.
For these same reasons the KR might even be superior, according to your reasoning.
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Dont take stats too serious, they are taken from all players worldwide. Self care is apparently top 10 survivor perks, according to stats. Nobody should feel bad for playing anything. Its a game. You paid for it, you can play how you want. (Except for cheating).
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When did i say that?
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I told ya, my friend, that I'd convince you he isn't the weakest killer in the game. Guess the stats did it for me, eh?
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That does make a lot of sense. Newer players would probably be too intimidated to commit to killer, I know I was when I started but I persevered because Sadako was just released at the time.
Speaking of, from my experience I kinda understand her killrate during the month of January. It was still 2.0 Sadako, and survivors (assuming they're average MMR based on your conclusions) didn't understand TVs and tapes too well, or didn't like her and gave up on hook. I'm not sure of my MMR on Sadako, but I know I got more 3k-4ks than not with escapes being kinda rare and days between sessions. Funny thing is, when I'd play survivor with friends I could explain her on the fly and get my group to all escape once they understood the tapes. (Granted I also don't know our group MMR either.) I shouldn't base it on my own experience though, but at the same time I can't help but feel like I can understand her killrate. In fact, a lot of killers with an early mori mechanic make a bit of sense if we're taking data from every match all over, maybe not perfect sense since we don't know player #'s for each MMR bracket.
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Sure did. I'm on board now.
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Yes, if they want the game for the average Survivor to be unpleasant, they are doing a bang-up job of that.
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It's likely much higher when you count DC's as well
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The actual answer is A LOT of people care about competitive DBD, which is why 99% of the killer tier lists are based off of 6,000+ hour competitive players.
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Tier lists are always based off skill ceilings, doesn’t mean people care about actual competitive dbd
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Continue preaching the truth my friend regardless of all the hate replies you get. I've seen you in most threads and we agree on most things. People refuse to see that survivors are literally down in the dumps right now and they actually still think survivors need further nerfs even after these stats. Survivors NEED help, we NEED something because right now escaping is extremely rare. The only way i escape as a solo q survivor is if the killer is bad.
Even when i duo/trio queue our escape rate is slim to none. This meta has become extremely stale, having to do 7-8 generators per match only to still lose. Perks that are considered solid on the survivor side are reduced to trash the second someone finds any actual viability in it causing new survivor perks to become meme perks. Don't even get me started on every new killer BHVR has released lately has been Anti-Loop, Damned if you do, Damned if you don't killers inside chase. Looping is what makes this game fun to me and many others, and killers like Alien & Chucky just kill that for me, you can hardly counter their abilities in chase.
These are some huge issues i have as a solo/duo survivor not in any specific order of importance.
-Prestige 100 tunneling (Please hide survivor prestige's from killers).
-Generator slowdown perks making us have to do 7-8 generators per match (very low chance to even get that far).
-Regular proxy camping, tunneling (You all know what i mean).
Problem killers that in my opinion need looked at for having unhealthy aspects/playstyles.
-Skull Merchant (You know why).
-Alien (Damned if you do, Damned if you don't, just feels unhealthy for the game similar to Nurse).
-Chucky (Just reduce hit charge hitbox and further reduce the flick radius).
These are some survivor perks that i believe need some further changes by BHVR.
-Iron Will (Remove the exhaustion aspect).
-Spine Chill (As of right now, its literally garbage and i feel like they need to make it do ANYTHING else).
-Decisive Strike (Bring back 5 second stun).
-Self-Care (just something else, people who use it right now are hurting the team and themselves).
I am going to end it here, and keep in mind these are obviously just my personal opinions and i know some of you will disagree but oh well. These are legit issues with the game currently and there's nothing any of you can say to make me believe otherwise.
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:)
At no point in Freddy's history was he weak enough to be considered the worst killer in the game. Even right now, the weakest he has ever been, you can use him effectively.
The problem with Freddy is how boring he is, how the most unique killer in the game became this uninteresting mess. It is third lowest pick rate in the game, and there is a reason for that.
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Well the "average survivor" is garbage skill wise. That's why killers like Sadako and Pinhead, are at the top of the kill rates despite us knowing they're bad. But they prey on survivors being bad.
Getting them to a 50% escape rate would be horrible for balance once you have players who actually have some braincells in the match.
I don't think we should balance around players who die to Sadako because they don't know how she works and lose to Pig and Dredge a ton.
Not to mention the large amount of self sacrifice currently in the game being counted as kills and causing more collateral kills as well. So the kill rates are probably inflated a fair amount i.e. Dull Merchant.
Post edited by MrPenguin on5 -
What ratio would you propose?
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Sadly there is...
Fret not, I just played two games of Freddy to get in the mood.
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Sooooo.....
All 3 over Blight and Nurse? How many Xenos do you see? I'm genuinely curious?
What changes would you propose for Skull merchant and Xeno?
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Blight and Nurse are also problematic don't get me wrong, but Xeno is actually more miserable to play against in my opinion. Id say i play against probably 2-3 Aliens per session and the rest are Blight, Chucky, Wesker. I would rather play against blights all day then play against Chucky or Xeno EVER. Their kits are just extremely annoying, and i typically just die go next after about 2 or 3 in.
Skull merchant is just a killer they should completely rework from the ground up or just delete her altogether idc.
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I think having some pure anti-loop Killers is fine, but having the bloat that we have isn't. You could play against Knight, SM, Alien, Chucky, Nemesis, (most) Artist, etc etc and all have the same gameplay loop. If they get there power on a loop, you die or hold W.
I think the vast majority of Survivor perks aren't worth running and need changes; that's also true for the Killer side.
Prestige should be hidden, nobody really seems to disagree.
I do think that there should be an objective after gens but before gates; after we get rid of tunneling. I do think it absolutely sucks to repair 7 or 8 gens worth of progress and it also sucks having them fly without gen regression.
Proxy'ing and tunneling are issues, one much larger than the other.
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50/50 preferably. If it's over a little either way that's fine.
You have to remember that Hatch is bloating escape rates, people ses 40% and think, "Wow, they're getting out through the Gate" when a significant portion are not.
Also, DC's likely increase the kill rates a lot as well. Maybe not important for balance, but important to understand the average players experience
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The disconnects are already calculated in the 70% according to the developers.
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Likewise to the hatch, a lot of bonus kills are made during EGC by altruistc survivors, or by the killer being forced to camp.
If survivors have powered the exits, but a killer secures one kill by camping through all three hookstages during EGC, is that a fair kill? Seems the equivalent to a hatch escape to me.
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Where?
Did they not say it was WITHOUT DC's?
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Yes, they did say without DC's.
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It is.
I just don't think the frequency is the same. I don't think it's a stretch to say a Survivor gets out during a one man EGC more than a Killer manages a Kill.
Could be due to bad Gate spawns, lucky Hatch spawn etc etc
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Oh, thank you for showing me this! I was certain in the past that disconnects were included. It makes sense that they are not.
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a 40% ranking does not mean solo queue is "fine" for the vast majority of players. 40% escape rate isn't a majority of games, and it without a doubt does not happen to every player, obviously, because of the large sample size. this is you abusing statistics. you are blatantly looking at a number, and then openly lying about what it says in order to prove a point.
Is 40% a small number for escapes? dear god no. but it doesn't mean that solo queue OVERALL is fine for a majority of people. you're stretching the percentage and using it to suit your personal narrative that you already came to before seeing the percentage. THAT'S what I'm calling out. You already believed solo queue was overly complained about before the stats came out, and are using this 40% to justify your personal narrative you already thought.
that is abusing a statistic. you cannot just use a number and make it say whatever you want. it's not how statistics work. you are openly using it as a "people cannot have a long streak of unfun matches and if you do you clearly must hate dbd and should quit" sign, when you should know that's not what the 40% rating means. what you're saying is blissfully confused at best, malicious at worst.
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Sadako is a noob stomper. Any of the killers whose power does something complicated always has high kill rates because people don't understand it.
So sadako. Pig. Pinhead. Freddy.
These killers all have powers that make you interact with the map in some way and new players don't get it.
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What i read from this: Survivor escape rate is very low across the board, but even lower for solo players.
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Clearly, this means we don’t need anymore solo q buffs, because BHVR already did a good job at bridging the gap between solo q and SWF.
Clearly, this means that is someone says “solo q is miserable”, that we can remind them solo q and SWFs have extremely similar escape rates, so solo q really isn’t bad at all.
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More realistically, we can focus on the fact that it's quality of solo queue gameplay that sucks, not strength.
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Why couldn’t they apply a debuff of some kind to a 4 stack?
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A nearly 10% gap between 4 stack and the rest is a big problem.
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It's a 3% gap.
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Between solo and 4 stack? My reading of this is that solo q is in line with what the devs want, while 4 stacks break the balance.
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"We just wanna play with our friends"
It doesn't matter what you WOULD do with Discord + SWF, it's what you COULD do that matters, and what you CAN do with it is overpowered.
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There is no difference between solo-q and swf on low mmr. That is why you got those numbers.
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Because bhvr wants more people playing their game, not less. Nerfing or removing swf would just turn people away from the game. From a business perspective it makes 0 sense to do that
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Yes, solo's overall escape rate is 40.34%, and the overall escape rate of survivors in a 4-man stack is 43.09%. Give or take less than a percentage point, that's a 3% gap.
I'd say that's pretty well within margin of error, in terms of raw escape rate a survivor isn't that much better off for being in a SWF. That doesn't mean the experience of a solo queue player can't be improved, of course, but that's besides the point.
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People would still play. The vast majority of people who say they are quitting are full of it. If all they care about is chilling with friends, they shouldn’t mind losing a little more.
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40% is exactly what the devs want. So it's completely balanced in that regard. You're trying to shift the goal post here.
Survivors are not meant to survive a majority of games. Think about it: This would imply an escape rate >50%. Which means a kill rate of <50%. So then killers would lose a majority of their games. Which would bring us back to your argument with the roles reversed.
The reason why a 50% kill rate (what some people consider optimal) is too low is fairly simple. The devs want killers to be the power role. It is supposed to be an uphill battle for survivors. You can critizise that all you like but it's a simple fact. One that actually makes sense for multiple reasons.
On one hand, killer is the more stressful role (you're constantly in action with little to no down time) as opposed to survivors, who can relax as long as they are outside of chase. So it needs to feel rewarding for a killer to play. Otherwise, why would you play killer at all? On the other hand, it's a 4v1 game. A 50-50 is not only hard to achieve but arguably unhealthy. As long as the killer doesn't feel significantly stronger to the survivors as well, then nothing will stop them from going out of their way to bully the killer. This is amplified further by the survivors experiencing strength in numbers. I could list a few more reasons but really it doesn't matter. Because at the end of the day, the devs decide whether or not the game is 'balanced'. We can complain all we like but it doesn't change that fact.
I judge solo queue under consideration of the escape rate. If we consider 40% as balanced, then solo queue is fine in that regard. Apart from that my solo queue games mostly don't feel as bad as some people claim. And they claim this for solo queue in general. Is solo queue always great? Of course not. There are things outside your control that heavily determine your chances to survive. You could be the best player in the world and still lose to a beginner killer. Because at the end of the day, a survivor cannot win a 1v1 against the killer (which is necessary). If your team mates are terrible and all die immediately, then you won't be able to do much either. But for the most part all 4 survivors in the game are somewhere around the same skill level. So solo queue is fine even that regard. Again, as bad as the MMR may be, it still prevents the worst from happening (apart from lobby dodging).
I don't think saying that solo queue is not as bad as some people want us to believe is a "personal narrative". Considering that many claim, that the game is completely unbalanced for solo queue and that they always lose with no chance, the escape rates did in fact confirm my claim. That was what I said before in case you still don't understand.
That last part is a completely wrong assumption. I said before that you cannot take a small sample size and expect a 40% escape rate. That is not how statistics work indeed. But the law of large numbers says that with a high sample size (sample size -> infinity) your results will come close to the expected values. You can have a streak of bad games of course. This streak could even be "long" (it depends on your definition of long). But overall your results will balance out. MMR only makes this happen sooner.
I suggest you read thoroughly before you make these accusations. You also misinterpreted (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt her) what I said about having fun. If you are not having fun in the majority of your games (not just 5 in a row or whatever arbitrary low number you wish to place here), then the best thing you can do is not play. At least for a while. Sometimes we all think we would like to play some games of DBD but then none of them feel fun. When something like that occurs, it's best to stop playing for a while. Until you can enjoy the game again.
I'll do us both a favor and stop this conversation here. We can agree to disagree but let me make myself clear, I know exactly how statistics work and I suggest you stop making baseless claims here. Especially when it's clear, that you ignored parts of what I said for your own "personal narrative".
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So stop complaining about Solo Q being so hard. Pretty much same escape rate as a full SWF
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You can't even know whenever you are playing against a 4 man SWF.
But it's easier for you to accuse survivors to be part of a gaming group instead of taking your responsibility for you losses, isn't it?
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that can really be applied to killers as well. Yet you dont see me asking them to nerfed to where the game is miserable for them. Actually make reasonable suggestions like nerfing toolboxes or asking for a basekit corrupt intervention. Bvhr is never gonna nerf swf because they want more players playing their game. So its not a good suggestion anyway.
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It’s pretty easy to tell by checking their Steam profile/friends list. Plus you can tell if the group has coordination or not
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I did, indeed.
You don't know when you are playing against a 4-man. Also, some of us enjoy being challenged (on Killers we are confident on 😅)
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The difference between the absolute most used killer and the rarest, least used one is 6%.
The difference between the absolute highest kill rate and the lowest kill rate killer is 15%, and the only thing below that is Doctor with a 19% difference because he's plagued with AFK bots.
10% is a lot. It means in 1000 matches, roughly 100 more people escape if they are full SWFs than if they are solos. (It's not quite that cut and dried, but that is the general idea)
EDIT: 400 more people. Don't do maths before bed, kids. There's a point you don't even remember what you're calculating anymore.
Post edited by Eelanos on2 -
Are you good at Killer? I assume you must be, since you played in comp.
I dabbled in the comp scene for a bit. Did Community Cups, scrim nights etc etc.
Even on low-tiers, I'm winning the vast majority of my games. Hell, I beat an actual comp team as Wraith of all people. Wraith isn't bad, but I'd hesitate to call him high-tier.
As a former comp player, you aren't meeting people with your skill level or background consistently. You should be winning consistently, even against four man's. If I'm winning consistently, and you have more experience than me, you should be too
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