Why Isnt Killing Yourself on First Hook a Bannable/Reportable Offense?
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This. You can't force players to play out a match.
They put in the option to try and escape off hook. If they don't want players to kill themselves on hook then remove the ability to do it unless the killer is camping and you can unhook yourself. But even then you're still down a team mate if said player doesn't want to play. They'll just go afk til the match ends.
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It kind of feels like 4%ing yourself is the only “allowable” way of leaving a match early. Personally, I would like the mechanic to be updated so that maybe luck has a bigger impact or something else.
Whenever it feels like people are 4%ing themselves more than usual I will bring Vigo’s Jar and Up the Ante. It’s not perfect but it is something. Or just rush the hook every time someone is hooked. It doesn’t really bother me, but I understand that it can be frustrating.
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i thought i'd hop into this conversation because i find it interesting.
realistically speaking, i don't think there is any real way to prevent someone from finding a way to quit a match. if there's a will, there's a way. on top of that, it would be extremely unfriendly to players if people were to be held hostage in a game they wish to not play. by keeping those players in the game, it could easily hurt the experience of other players since they may resort to intentionally getting themselves killed or causing havoc in a game out of revenge.
plus, designing a system to keep these players in-game would be a tall feat since all a person has to do is disconnect the power to whatever device they're playing on. you cannot prevent someone from turning off a device they paid for. so taking away deaths on first hook is not going to do anything.
understandably, there's a variety of reasons as to why someone would ragequit or have to leave early. naturally that's part of any online experience outside of dead by daylight. whatever those reasons may be, it still makes no sense to find a way to generally punish the community when there's multiple factors that play into it.
it makes more sense for us to come to terms with the fact that disconnections, rage quits, suicides, and other means of giving up are part of the experience for any online game. you are playing against people with complex emotions or agendas, so there's always going to be someone who will do everything possible to cater to their own experience. you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot force him to drink!
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Simple remove the DC penalty so people will DC and you'll get a bot instead
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So many "you can't force a player to stay in a match" posts, yet not a single one advocating for the killer to be able to forfeit. TBH I just want parity between the two, make the DC penalty actually relevant for both sides or allow both sides to circumvent it.
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Well the intention can change so fast as the weather does sometimes.
For example you just went into the Q and got a match, you have the intention to play the round but then you hear SM or any other Killer you don't like or you lost your map 50/50 with someone who also had a map offering.
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No its not. The topic is about survivors being allowed to leave a match in a way that circumvents the DC penalty, and how that gets abused. Many of the responses are about how you can't force people to stay in a game, yet ignore that the killer has to do just that. In the exact same game.
Personally I don't think either side should be able to leave without DCing (thats the entire point of the leave match button, after all) but some people seem to think its impossible to do anything about the loophole that gets used by survivors regularly. They've already reworked struggle mechanics before (it used to require constant mashing) so there's no reason it couldn't be put on the table once again.
But again, it seems like its only a one way street within the community.
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I'm the only one mentioning it because it never gets considered when making the arguments people make for allowing the loophole to continue. My point is a very easy one to understand: Killers are forced to either play out their games or take the DC penalty.
They can sandbag themselves, try to farm, but at the end of the day they are required to finish the match they queued into, or eat the penalty. Survivors can similarly leave via DCing and eat the penalty (and produce a bot) but they have no reason to while they can still circumvent that and be allowed to get right back into the queue. It very clearly forces the killer to consider whether taking a 5 minute penalty is worth leaving over, or whether they need to just try to finish the match.
Survivors are supposed to have to weigh that same decision, but they currently don't have to.
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Im not advocating for it just as much. The reason why I am only talking about Survivors is because theyre the only ones who have an out.
If killers had an out too, I would of made sure to mention it.
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Yeah I didnt really pick up on the whataboutism aspect of it initially.
While it does sort of have relevance, it definitely isnt worth mentioning as it steers away from the actual point of the thread
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The point is that killers finish their games just fine by not having a way to go next. They either finish the match or they eat the penalty, which is something that apparently can't apply to survivor. Perhaps I could have framed it a bit less sardonic, but I kept seeing the same regurgitated "you can't force people to play" argument which comes up in every topic on this subject.
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Ok.. but thats not the point. The point is Survivors shouldnt be able to have an out either. Survivors are the one brought up here because they are, as you mentioned, the only ones who do have a work around.
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And I'm in complete agreement with you. I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy of an argument used multiple times in the topic. Maybe I should have quoted them all?
In any case, sorry for causing a tangent.
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Isn't that what the game does anyway? When a match ends, whatever the outcome, you sit in the lobby and wait for the next one.
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Yes, but Id rather play a game that lasts 10-15 minutes and then get sent to the lobby rather than a 5 minute one
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Yeah because it’s so ridiculous, tired of being screwed over by teammates like that.
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The answer i always get is:
"You can't make people play a game they don't want to" To which my reply is, actually yes you can. Look at games like DotA which SEVERELY punishes leaving games, such that you get 1 free leave PER WEEK. If you leave more than 1 game a WEEK, you start getting punished and punished SEVERELY. And the part about that i don't get? Games of DotA can last well over an hour. So in that game, where matches can last over an hour, they manage to get people to stay till the end of the game. But for some reason someone can't do that for an 8 minute game of dead by daylight?
The other aspect of it that people fail to address. Lets say i buy your premise that "you can't keep people in the game" So why can't killers end the match early too? Why is it only survivors that are afforded this "luxury" where they can leave the match.
Lastly, there already is a system in place that punishes you for disconnecting. So why is this loophole allowed? The point of the DC penalty is to discourage it, so obviously the devs don't like it when people DC, or the penalty would be removed. At least when you DC, your team gets a bot and can continue on, at least a little bit. But killing yourself on first hook means you basically doom your team to a guaranteed loss. So why is it allowed?
IDK. I think that people who do this kind of thing are in the same vein as people who don't put their carts back at the grocery store.
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Now that lightburn is no longer a thing, Wraith is my favourite killer to play when I just want a chill night.
Play normally up until it gets too much and when I just get sick of survivors being horrible to me, just cloak and stand in the corner then watch youtube.
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Sure you can make them "stay," but can you make them participate? No. They'll just doom their team in other ways. So if they want to leave that badly, let them. There's no reason to force people to stay if they've already decided they're not going to participate.
Games where Killers give up are usually much shorter than the ones where Survivors give up. Even when the Killer doesn't DC, they can just go afk. Survivors bust out the gens and then leave in less than five minutes.
"Why is this loophole allowed?" Because the 4% is an important mechanic that shouldn't be touched. You can't disallow it without ruining its intended purpose, or the acceptable scenarios (such as throwing on hook to give last person hatch, or you have no choice but to 4% because all your teammates are dead/slugged/hooked).
If they want to discourage throwing on hook, they need to put a cap on the DC penalty stacks. That's the main reason why people take the hook suicide route to leave matches. The fact that the DC penalty can stack to 24-48 hours or even more is just nothing short of absolutely insane.
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it wouldnt matter if people dont want to play then they will just go afk.
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remove the 4% and its fixed. procent is a subtle way to cheat and should only be able to if you have perks or addons that support it
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Two obvious things:
A Survivor who does not want to play, will not play regardless. At best they are afk, at worst they ruin the game for the rest. It will not help at all if Hook Suicides will be punished.
There are edge cases where punishing hook suicides would make a Survivor, who already feels miserable, even more miserable. For example, I suicided a few days ago, because I was just not getting saved. One Survivor was in Chase (so everyone knew the Killer was not camping), one Survivor was crouching next to the one in chase and the last Survivor was doing a Gen instead of getting me (they ran away from me to do that Gen..). So why should I stick around? It is not like I am buying time for the team, because the Killer is not camping and I wont get unhooked anyway. So why waste my time? Punishing in this case would just be wrong.
Another example would be a SoloQ-Survivor who gets camped by the Killer. Yes, the best thing to do is just to stay on the Hook for 2 minutes to give the team time to do Gens. But we all know that this a) does not mean that they get all Gens done and b) that Survivors will still try, crouch around and so on. Let alone that a SoloQ-Teammate does not really have any obligations to stick around.
And then they should be punished after they already got camped?
The real way to solve this is to remove things which are unfun and make people suicide on Hook. There will ALWAYS be people who dont want to play for the most stupid reasons. It is not avoidable. You can play Clown without Perks and Add Ons and the first person going down might still want to go next. Happens. But at least the Devs can try to remove things which are without a doubt unfun for the other side. (E.g. Skull Merchant needs some work, her Killrate is inflated due to people giving up against her since the experience against her is miserable... Working on something like that will reduce Hook Suicides for example. And there are many other things)
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Can we also make tunneling and slugging bannable?
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Which is also reportable under Unsportsmanlike Conduct
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The game would be so awful if they did remove the ability to do so sorry.
As killer it means a free win so I don't care.
As survivor it means a quick match. If someone is going next it probably means the killer is playing something annoying. So I don't really care either.
If they remove this then they need to remove killer ability to dodge lobby or see pre game information.
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they usually do participate based on other games. no matter how many times you get the vote to surrender, if the vote fails, the game continues and people play.
this is just wrong and people keep parrotting it for no reason and evidence to the contrary.
so when the solo player gives up, the game is shorter than when 1 out of 4 give up? really? damn...
it absolutely should be touched. it's outdated and needs improving if not removal.
wrong logic. you don't give an out to people throwing tantrums and ruining games. you make sure they take the tiny punishment of a dc or they keep playing.
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What do you mean "based on other games?" Do you mean other DBD matches, or different games entirely?
Improving the 4% mechanic? If they can come up with a fair improvement, I'd support it. But absolutely not the removal.
You do realize that tantrums aren't the only reason that people DC or throw on hook, right? It could be faulty servers DC'ing people for no reason. Or maybe the teammates are ruining the game that cause the person to throw on hook (which happens more often than not). Look at Aven_Fallen's comment above, for example. Punishing for that is just wrong.
People aren't going to take the DC penalty, no matter how small the first few are, as long as they stack to those ridiculous levels. Put a cap on it, perhaps no more than 30 minutes for each DC when it reaches that point. That's a bit more forgiving for people whose connections just drop without warning, but also punishing enough for people to think twice before hitting that DC button.
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"If they remove this then they need to remove killer ability to dodge lobby or see pre game informafion." I agree, but have no idea how the 2 correlate here.
Also the game would be MUCH better off if you didnt have somebody spoil the game for the rest. Most games out there punishes people for leaving or throwing, why make DbD an exception?
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Tunneling and slugging are viable strategies
Killing yourself on hook is purposefully throwing the game.
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as long as survivors are in a team, there will be frustrated survivors. i don't think i have ever gone next for any reason other than it's a skull merchant or my teammates were... gaming.
but of course they can and should fix outstanding issues causing hook suicides like sm or killers that create accessibility issues for some people like clown plague and dredge.
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Yeah, you cannot eliminate it completely.
Like, there is one Survivor I know, they ALWAYS suicide on their first hook. It does not matter if there are 5 Gens left or 1 Gen left, when this person is on their first Hook, they suicide. Also regardless how the Killer is playing, can be the most nice Killer, no camping or tunneling. (Funnily enough, they camp and tunnel as Killer as well... So not sure what they really want from this game)
And stuff like that cannot be avoided. But at least some things can be reduced.
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i was watching a stream a bit of time ago and they recognized a survivor who apparently suicided in any match they got them. such extreme cases might need to be looked at but i don't know how.
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Survivor players shouldn't get DC penalty anymore anyway because of bots. And if intentional dying on hook is bannable maybe tunnel/camping/slug or AFK be bannable. The devs stated that defending gens is not normal gameplay. Bannable? Complaining on forums bannable?
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Report for not engaging in normal gameplay
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League of Legends - Has bans and is 5v5, also has ranked modes and is built to be competitive with a much healthier and consistent balancing cycle. Has a surrender feature. Strict DC and queue dodge penalties.
Dota 2 - Similar to above but also has a pause feature to accommodate long game times and also has comeback features and a ton of ways to play from behind. Strict DC penalty but allows other players to leave if someone else does for no penalty.
Fortnite - Can queue up for squads to do challenges then leave whenever you want. No dc penalty of any kind. May have some in ranked modes but I don't mess with that.
Overwatch - Compeititve team based shooter, no DC penalty outside of ranked.
DBD - Abysmal balancing team, no competitive identity. Constant tug of war between being a casual party game and a competitive horror game. Tons of ways to BM or make games a slog for both sides. No ranked mode. No way to reconnect to a game.
I bring up killer because everyone seems to be obsessed with forcing survivors to have to be bled out and humped by a tunneling spirit with NOED or a four slowdown Skull Merchant or teammates that crouch in a corner all game. But nobody wants to address the reasons for hook suicides
I bring up killer because I don't see why they're permitted to lobby shop but survivors are being told to take what they get and deal with it. These two things are definitely related.
But I am of the opinions that DC penalties are terrible design outside of ranked or competitive game modes/games. DBD is too amateur to be a competitive game so I'm not sure why it has a DC penalty. It's quite refreshing playing other games that don't have one and I don't even notice a decrease in match quality.
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Theres a difference between intentionally throwing the game and using a strategy. 3 genning, al though VERY unhealthy, was a strategy and thus it was addressed.
Killing yourself on hook is simply griefing, plain and simple. I know its not ever gonna become a reportable/bannable offense, but at the very least they need to put some sort of system to stop it from happening.
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Doesnt matter what game, point is some one disconnecting from a game ruins the experience for everyone, and DbD does have a system in place that can be easily worked around which shouldnt be the case.
Also whos telling Survivors to "just deal with it"? Whenever the topic comes up its mainly people suggesting to have a bleedout option when all Survivors are downed or to have the game end.
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We can't punish someone for using a mechanic just because it's a dumb thing to do, like, 99.9% of the time. After all, it could just be that a newbie was confused by the fact that A MECHANIC EXISTS THAT'S A DUMB THING TO DO, LIKE, 99.9% OF THE TIME.
Now, of course, there are people who are going to abuse it, but... um... I can't really think of any reason they would do so. Hmm...
"My niece was literally vomiting because-"
Ah, thank you! Perfect! Yes, she's one of those inconsiderate dbags we're talking about. Totally inappropriate use of the mechanic.
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Yeah, you can, in those exact same games, they harshly do the same punishments for people who:
- Troll
- AFK
- Feed (killing themselves on purpose)
- Griefing teammates (body blocking?)
- etc.
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I don't know how much more obvious "based on other games" can be...
because?
you do realize the tantrums is what I am talking about, right? faulty servers is irrelevant here. the person decided to throw and used an excuse, ok... seems like a tantrum... punishing for that seems more than reasonable.
they should take them. dodging the penalty is not good for the game.
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Turning a game mechanic into a bannable offense is something that should never be done. What SHOULD be done is removing the easy way survivors have of doing this with no penalty whatsoever. I've said that before and I will say that again: REMOVE THE INSTANT DEATH ON FAILED SKILL CHECKS! Survivors shouldn't die instantly when they fail 2 hook skill checks in a row. Remove this feature (or maybe just make it become available when there is only one survivor standing, not when everyone is alive and well) and increase the time between hook skill cheks so they can't speed up the death on hook that much. If that was done, killing yourself on a match wouldn't be that easy.
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