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STOP THE TUNNELING!
I'm getting sick of it. Almost every match, almost every killer hard tunnels at 4~5 gens and you know what? They need to be punished. Yep. I said it.
Before you go saying punishing this action isn't a good idea or that survivors aren't punished, yes they are. Survivors can only vault the same window over and over, the entity "punishes" survivors for using the same window.
So why can't the entity block the hooks when you're trying to hook the same survivor consecutively?
This is why survivors become toxic later on btw.
Comments
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no. The entity blocks the window because the chase does not end forever.
Once there was a map design, I tried to delete the development once if I didn't need Bloodlust, but I immediately withdrawn. The players smiled bitterly, saying they didn't do it.
This game needs a tactic for killers to leave survivors as soon as possible and end quickly without chase. Tunnel acts are one of them, but tunnels are not strong at all so that tactics are useless alone.
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Yeah? So they entity can also block hooks to stop tunneling.
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Idk what results you expect from this but you are only going to attract two crowds: those for tunneling, those against tunneling.
I would include people who feel indifferent, such as myself, but 95% of the time we get grouped into either group by other people regardless of our opinion.
Though if you are curious, I did make a post about it that tries to explain both sides from a position that tries to remove a lot of bias, obviously not completely removing all bias since it would be impossible but attempting to remove a lot of it.
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There seems to be a fundamental difference, so you should understand the game mechanism.
This game brings survivor hook progress and sacrifice instead of time limit.
The killer makes it faster, and the survivor is slow. If there is a game negotiations, survivors will gradually run out as a whole.
Survivors should not be chased forever, nor do you refuse to leave. Before that happens, it is a game for survivors to aim to escape.
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I can respect that. Like I understood gen speeds stress out killers n used to back them since I played, even almost mained killer myself. So I understood some tunneling after losing a few Gens but a lot of killers now just hard tunnel, 5 gens, straight out the gate. It's getting ridiculous needs to be fixed *along with* gen speed boosts.
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Still punishes a repeated action though, doesn't it and in the killer's favor? So killers via tunneling are repeatedly hooking the same survivor right after unhook so that should be blocked.
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There's a difference between blocking windows to prevent infinite loops (exploit) and blocking hooks to prevent basic game progression (hooking someone is not an exploit regardless of how you feel about it).
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"Stop trying to win!"
Unfortunately tunneling is the strongest strategy so it should be expected that the players will do it.
I understand it sucks, I understand it's not fun, but it's also the killers best shot at winning.
Are we also going to punish survivors for splitting on gens? Since that's also their best strategy? Idk about you but that sounds silly to me to punish players for using the strongest playstyle they have access to.
You shouldn't be asking killers to stop tunneling you should be asking the devs to make the strongest strategy spreading hooks instead. Because right now it's not.
Then we can punish tunneling if it's still necessary to do so.
Post edited by MrPenguin on10 -
The problem is going back to hook and tunneling off hook. They need to forget the 2v8 gamemode and use the mechanic in normal gamemode and make the hooks like the Cage of Aattonment but with more random spawning across the map. Also like the Cage of Attonmemt if they are near by it should move it again and we should have a small amount of struggle or time given back to us.
Post edited by BugReporterOnly on0 -
I just got a 3k with Knight, a killer I barely know how to use and let 4th survivor get hatch and I did not have to camp or tunnel in order to do so.
I have already agreed gen boosts are an issue, but make no mistake tunneling someone out quickly at 5 gens is worse than being genrushed as a killer cause at least you get to play longer as killer, and your BP doesn't suffer like a survivor's does from early tunneling.
I also think killer players are often way too obsessed with getting a full 4k. Especially since the average intended by developers is 2k.
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Also, I'm not asking killers to stop, they won't. I'm asking the devs to fix it. Kinda why I'm posting here.
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I said something similar earlier. Why I wish devs would remove hook information from killers. They shouldn't be informed when survivors are unhooked.
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Sure its possible to win without tunneling.
Especially if that's how you normally play so your MMR is at the level where you can do so and stand a chance. As I am.
That doesn't change anything I said.
If you want your best shot at winning, be it 3K or 4K, you tunnel. That's it, that's the whole reason. Unless something changes that killers will tunnel and that should be expected.
You're asking for punishment, not for spreading hooks to be made the better and strong option. 2 different things.
Post edited by MrPenguin on6 -
Yes, because you're targeting one specific person at the beginning of the match and killing them asap at 5 gens, ruining things for them. It's akin to griefing.
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You're not getting "griefed" just because you're losing and you don't like how you're losing.
As long as it remains the best or even a strong strategy, you cannot make that argument unless the killer tells you that they did it intentionally to bother you.
Tunneling needs to be made weak and spreading hooks needs to be made strong. Then the only reason someone would tunnel is because they want to bother you.
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You know very well it isn't simply losing. It's being deliberately targeted and it doesn't matter if you communicate or not. There are plenty other games where griefing occurs without communication even happening between the 2 but it's obvious when it happens. Specifically when someone targets you.
It's a dirty move to tunnel like that early on in the match to just eliminate someone quickly for EZ, lazy win at the expense of another person.
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Of course you're being deliberately targeted, that's the best way to win.
What's better for the killer a 3v1 or a 4v1?
Chasing a full health survivor or an injured one?
Getting someone to death hook and then dead or getting a 2nd person to 2nd hook and then a third?
It cannot be obvious griefing when it's also the best way to win the game. You have absolutely no way to know if the killer is doing it just because they want to win or to be "toxic" unless they tell you. There's plenty of things that are obviously toxic like hook hitting, T-bagging, gate stalling and ect. because they have absolutely zero competitive advantage. Their sole purpose is to be a donkey to another player.
Tunneling is not one of them.
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Entity Window Blocking was added to mitigate the effect of literal infinites in DBD's earlier patches.
You want to not get tunneled? Improve your chase gameplay, and you'll make the killer get severely punished by losing the game for overcomitting to you.
And on the topic of survivor toxicity, "well they started it!" is tired, can we just stop pretending that's why? The side that's toxic does it to feel superior to their opponent. That's literally it.
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I would literally rather be hit on hook repeatedly than me or someone else be targeted and eliminated from the start of the match.
There's no excuse for tunneling at 5 gens. If you have to stoop that low to "win" as killer, then you're not good.
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I've been working on chase and have in some situations been able to get a tunneling killer to lose the rest of their kills, but in some situations there's literally nothing you can do to stop the killer since they come straight for you fresh off hook before you can even get to a loop.
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Well it's not just about your feelings, there's a whole other player on the enemy team who also wants to win.
There is an excuse: wanting to win and taking your best shot.
If using your best strategy makes you "not good" then splitting gens also makes you "not good" as survivor and trash at the game. Then both sides can be trash for using the most common and strongest playstyle.
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That makes no sense since it's literally worse for the killer if the team gangs up on 1 gen. If you split up on gens they go slower. Splitting up would be more comparable to spreading hooks.
And complaining about gens is like complaining about hooks, which is clearly not what I'm complaining about. It's repeatedly hooking one survivor right off the hook. Tunneling. Not the same as chasing/hooking whatever survivor you see.
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No it's not worse for the killer.
Yes that 1 gen will get completed faster, but in terms of the entire game and all 5 gens, you will go a lot slower due to the speed penalty as well as letting the killer pressure all 4 of the survivors if they approach the gen instead of just 1. As killer that gives you the most time possible to kill everyone, which is exactly what the killer wants.
This is very common knowledge which is why in most games survivors split up on gens.
Considering you didn't know that, your either you're very new and/or in the dark on how the game works. Either way this thread makes a lot more sense. Considering the low post amount I'm assuming it's "very new".
And yes, chasing the survivor right off hook is still the best way to win as killer. You do not want to give them time to heal and you already know where they are.
Post edited by MrPenguin on6 -
okey alacazam your wish has been gradet from now on when a survivor would be hooked wo time in a row the hook is blocked by the entity. tenneling is now absolutly impossible but did you think about what follow your little wish?
that survivor is by all means invincible now, i mean sure the killer could down him but that only wastes time. that survivor will absolutly use this fact to block the killer where ever he can cause all that happen is that he will get downed.
see its not as easy as to say block hooks and tunneling is gone, now the important questions start.
how long is that survivor safe? is there a time limit or is it until another surv was hooked? i mean the killer could just wait out 30 second of slug if thats the time window and would that really end tunneling? if its untill another surv is hooked iron will and exponentioal would probably be meta and the other four survs just hide until the invincible surv has done a good chunk of gens or is bleed out. they probably take turns.
real anti tunneling wont ever happen cause for that bhvr would need to change how the game is played.
as a little example they could change hooks. when ever a surv is hooked he is brought to a holding place, he remains in that place for x time and then is released in a random spot on the map that is atleast x meter away from the killer and the doors. that could end tunneling cause there is no real way to tunnel but it would require a load of work and time and money and thats not going to happen.
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What? Splitting on gens is optimal, doubling or tripling a gen not only gives diminishing returns but also risks the killer pressuring more of the team should they come to the gen being doubled or tripled.
Working 2 or even 3 gens at 100% efficiency (1c/s) is far more efficient than working one gen at a diminished efficiency, especially in the early game.
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Just because 5 gens are up doesn't mean they are all at 0%
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"At 5 gens" can range from 0 seconds into the game to 7 gens prepped at 99% which can be ~157 seconds (done by 4 players) to 630 seconds ( 1 player ), excluding travel time. It can also go to 2 gens left or even 1 gen left within less than 100 seconds of a trial starting.
Its a rather variable timeframe to vilify another players action.
Edit:
As for the spreading generators dialogue you have with @MrPenguin :
Do you see individual survivors splitting their attention across multiple generators? Theres normally 4 survivors on 4 gens, not 4 survivors on 7. One survivor focusing one generator each. Theyre doing the same bad thing they dont want the killer to do.
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📝 Survivor gets salty and toxic by “choice” due to a killer completing their objective. Got it!
Ah ha!!! I get it now! It’s so clear! If a survivor gets mad about this then I should behave the same way every-time a generator gets completed! OH it’s all about the objective!
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With all due respect, no, no I won’t stop tunneling. In my MMR, 4 gens are done in under 4 1/2 mins.
I even try not to use generator regression perks because I know how annoying they can be..There is nothing like your hard work getting blown up in your face time and time again. I’ll go out of my way to do different builds with gen stuff and it’s painful. Gens are done so fast.
if I want to remotely stand a chance, I have to tunnel and use multiple generator perks. (Not every game, but several) survivors are extremely efficient in my lobbies, so I have to be efficient as well. Getting a survivor out of the game as quickly as possible, helps reduce their efficiency dramatically
survivors don’t like getting tunneled out of the game, and I don’t like being gen rushed. It’s part of the game.
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This has been thoroughly discussed before and I agree, that there should be some kind of base mechanic to preven hard core tunneling. However, this would need to come with some strong restrictions because this basically allows a survivor to become invincible. They cannot be hooked but they can still Interfere with the killer. Meaning, the killer would be punished regardless of how they play when that is not done properly.
On top of that DS should go to a 7 seconds stun with further restrictions. But this would also need to come with a compensation for killers. Which is a discussion that many are not ready to have. Tunneling is the most efficient play style. But that is not the reason why we want to nerf it. It's very unfun to play against. But the killer's strength level should not rely purely on what survivors consider fun.
So what do we give the killer in return as a reward for spreading hooks? It would need to come with a slowdown mechanic. But that could be insanely strong and damage the fickle balance the devs have built over the past 7 years.
One more thing though. Tunneling is not the reason why survivors become toxic. Some people are dicks. That's why they will try to make their oponent miserable. You could be the nicest player of all time and they'd still be rude.
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Can we punish survivors who sit on a gen and complete it from 0-100 without every leaving the area? Or is it only a problem when the killer completing their objective?
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This seems to have turned into us vs them >< as someone who plays both sides, I avoid tunneling on Spirit, I don't feel the need to.
Even if someone runs into me after they're fully healed and I hooked them, I just ignore em.
Even if I 4k, I rather everyone get a chance to play, but that's my choice and not a rule.
I don't like tunneling on either side and sorry that keeps happening to you. It can get frustrating.
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I don't know what's worse, that Killers "need" to tunnel in order to win, or whenever the discussion comes up, Killer mains jump in with the same argument: "So tunneling Survivors is a problem and tunneling gens isn't?"
If you feel that gens are popping too fast, you're not spreading enough pressure. That's something that can be worked on, regardless of which Killer you play.
And if high MMR games are that sweaty, why are you trying to get or keep your MMR up there? That sounds more stressful than it's worth. Wouldn't it be worth it to lower your MMR so you can play some more chill games?
Either way, it's okay to lose sometimes. But people just don't seem to get that, they want to win 100% of the time or else the world ends. And that's what leads to the constant tunneling that we're seeing.
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I don't endorse hard tunneling, and the logic of hard tunneling in the early game seems flawed to me. However, there are times where tactical tunneling is an option that can swing the game for the killer. Commonly, this is tunneling someone who's on death hook to get them out of the game.
Other times, the killer only finds certain survivors, so they end up unintentionally tunneling because it's the only way to play the game. If most of the team is playing immersed and not even showing their face to the killer, then of course the killer is going to go for the weak link who is more careless and exposes themself.
As many others have said, a hard anti-tunnel system would essentially make one survivor invincible, which would be ripe for abuse by players who are looking to be obnoxious and bully the killer.
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I also think we should buff DS, even going so far to make a weak form of it basekit, given that it's a licensed character perk. A lot of killers seem to use tunneling as a crutch to avoid learning other skills as killer that would make them more efficient. I'm not saying that every killer that tunnels is guilty of this, because sometimes tunneling seems like the best option available, but I think there's a large contingent of killer players who tunnel for this reason.
Your last point about some survivors is really true, though. There's a large number of players on the survivor side (solo or in groups) who seem to get more joy out of intentionally ruining another person's play experience than just playing the game and winning. I feel like the hardest skill to learn when playing killer is actually to learn how to handle these people and not let them ruin the role for you. I've struggled with this sometimes.
Edit: Edited for clarity.
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Meh. I got so used to me or someone else getting tunneled that i just bring anti tunnel perks for myself. Now if its somebody else and they die at like 4 to 5 gens, i just hide. If the killer wanna be boring then ill be boring back. Lets play hide and seek. Gotta prolong the match somehow. Cant have a quick match
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It's interesting that so many survivors feel threatened by tunnels and camps, even though they are only one strategy.
I've heard that it's a game that focuses on casual players, but for those who actually understand the structure of the game, it's an EZ game where you can die in 1/4.
But the average kill rate is 60%. This either points to too many novice Survivors having their entire match ruined just by doing a tunnel, or it points to the fact that Survivors are losing out to Killers even when it comes to game content other than tunnels.
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I definitely agree that an anti tunneling mechanic should not be locked behind a licensed perk. The 3 seconds DS could be base kit and BT (the perk) could let you lose collision with the killer for 20 seconds instead of granting Endurance, which would also grant it great synergy with OTR. Both of these combined would make for a very strong protection against tunneling.
I agree that tunneling is often used as a crutch but I cannot really blame anyone but the devs for this flaw in game design. I am of the philosophy that in order to win you should play smart, not hard (because the alternative is a bottomless pit). And tunneling sadly is the smart play. However, this can and should be changed.
This last part does not only affect survivors but it seems more common on the survivor side (probably because it's a 4v1). It is an unfortunate truth that all of us can only fight toxicity on an individual level. The best one can do in such situations is to remain positive, remember that it's a game and then kill these jerks with kindness. That and to report the people that take it too far.
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That's how I feel rn. 😕 I'm Normally pretty chill, generous etc. If killers had no kills often I give them 1 at the end. I don't T Bag etc. Unless it's warranted like wronged me first, although sometimes it's also to make a derpy exit, accepting my fate and such.
I did back killers quite a bit saying time and time again Gen rushing, and I don't mean normal gen, but all the boosts that could reduce down to literally 2-3 minutes were an issue too.
Just, even if I bring stupid meme build. Gens normal speed etc. the tunneling still happens.
As for what's given, work on reducing Gen rush squads, put bp back on bbq chili. I feel like removing that was a huge mistake.
I agree I don't want survivors to abuse it or become invincible, just want matches to actually be enjoyable for everyone.
Thank you for understanding the frustrations of survivors and taking the time to respond.
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Oh, yeah, I could have written that last part better. I wasn't trying to insinuate most survivors are toxic, I just meant that there's some really mean survivors out there. I've encountered my fair share of toxic killers too. For some reason, those few mean survivors stick out to me. "Killing them with kindness" really is the best way to put it. The only way to end the cycle of toxicity is to be better than the toxic jerks on both sides.
As for tunneling, yeah, the devs will ultimately need to do something. Even in tournaments, tunneling is the go-to. That was the big eye-opener for me to see that it's a problem.
Post edited by Vorahk08 on0 -
Sucks though, if anti-tunnel is what you're forced to bring just because tunneling is so rampant.
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The BBQ BP incentive would not be sufficient to stop tunneling. Sure, people love extra BP but they love winning even more. And the people that tunnel from the get go typically want to win. So this would not have any effect on them.
Tunneling and gen rushing enforce their respective other but they still happen even when their counterpart is not in play. Mostly because you cannot know how your opponent will play until you see it. You can't really do chests and totems first and then switch to gen rushing when the killer starts tunneling and the killer can't go for different survivors until they lose 4 gens and then start tunneling to win.
This is a hard issue to tackle because everything that disincentivises tunneling or incentivises spreading hooks could have major balance implications and both would need to be carefully balanced and adjusted to prevent people abusing these as much as possible.
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Just stop doing gens then lol. You realize how ridiculous that sounds as well?
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Lol, even if Survivors stopped doing gens, Killers would still tunnel.
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The thing about Tunneling is that a majority of the communities solution is to incentives not tunneling, to give the killers a plus for not doing it. As smart as that sounds, it wouldn't solve tunneling, while just helping killers who already don't tunnel. If killers want to tunnel they will still tunnel. With the event we had with the deep fog I think we get maybe a decent solution there. Make it so killers can't see hooked survivor auras, and when they are hooked the survivor is teleported to a random far hook. That way when a survivor is unhooked the killer can't just head back to ir to tunnel. This would also help against A-hole survivors who like to unhook in front of the killer.
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Ill stop tunneling when the game actually rewards for me not tunneling.... most the time killers are forced to tunnel we dont do it bc we like it dude. not every killer is out to get you they are just playing to win just LIKE YOU.
or you could run one of the like 5 anti-tunnel/slug perks.....
OTR
Dead Hard
Made for this
if you get downed with OTR thats a looping issue on your side, if you get hit and dont run to a loop and just run into a dead zone and get downed thats 100% your own damn fault for not being smart.
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ah yes, players are toxic because the entity is a bad and unfair monster for real for real
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Some of us don’t have an issue losing. Some of us also aren’t trying to get our MMR up there or keep it.
I’m already there, there’s not much I can do about it, I get losing happens, but I’m not gonna go out of my to lose to drop my MMR because survivors are being efficient.
I also know as soon as I switch to survivor and hop in a match the survivors I get are the least efficient survivors in the world.
It’s also not fair for me to purposely lose so that my MMR just drops overtime. Then you get these poor unfortunate survivors that I load into and they get decimated because I decided to lower it. That’s not fair to them either.
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Any punishment for one side, particularly something so extreme as 'making a hook impossible to make', is something that can be weaponised by the other side.
The only outcome to this would be that unhooked survivors intentionally bodyblock, twice (endurance) to ensure their friends escape, and/or they get slugged instead of immediately tunneled, but ultimately still prioritised for elimination.
As others have said, as long as tunneling remains a superior strategy, the only real answer to to make tunneling less effective and spreading hooks more effective, at acheiving the killers goal.
One way of doing that could be adjust gen speeds to scale with number of survivors/number of gens:
- Each survivor eliminated increases repair speeds by 10%.
- Each gen completed reduces repair speeds by 5%.
This makes eliminating survivors less appealing because it will enhance genrushing, and vice versa.
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This.
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