It sucks that you can’t play nice in this game

The base kit makes tunneling more difficult than in the past. That's wrong.

Many survivors do not understand why they are suffering from tunneling behavior from the killer. Therefore, I will try to make speculations and deviate from the facts. None of the players, at least from Japan or Korea, who understand DBD's game system, complain about the tunnels and camps. Chinese don't, but they still have the means and knowledge to counter tunnels and camps.

This is not because of differences in thinking, but because They have actually succeeded against these, and They have a proven record.

I find that matches can still be pretty chill if you don't make a habit of 4King every game.

I can still play "nice" enough for most of my trials (nobody generally dies until there are 2 gens left). That said, I do get my fair share of 0 and level 1 prestige Survivors. I had a Jake the other day that hid by the exit gates all game after he ended up on death hook early. I guess I must be the closest in MMR to these players when the Killer BP incentive is at 100%.

It's got to the point where I have to bring an ebony mori so I don't dump someone out of the game too early because I can't count hooks.

Fair enough if you prefer the challenge of facing stronger opponents, but I guess this also means accepting that you can't always play nice and go for hooks over kills. One of the major downsides of MMR (assuming it's working at all), is that you'll always be going up against opponents that are at least as strong or possibly stronger than you are, until you lose often enough to drop down a bracket. My Survivor games are rough at the moment and nearly every killer I face is a ruthless 4K machine. Just how it goes, I suppose.

Perks have no effect unless equipped. Words from DBB official. Please do not remove DS from the conditions without permission. It's up to you, please equip it.

Second, the removal of hook grabs has made hook trading extremely easy. All survivors please do this.

Will it still be tunneled? Please go to the rescue together! The first person gets hit during the rescue and leaves. The second person makes a successful rescue and take one hit. Even if the first survivor return and makes a body block and is knocked down, the person in need of rescue will be protected. If you get tunneled even after buying this much time, you're clearly not good Survivor. Survivors are losing to killers in everything. It is natural that you all will lose survivors life.

That's DBD for ya you win as killer its because you camped and tunneled you don't win because you didn't want to you're trash and you're ez oh and we're waiting out the entire EGC unless you watch us teabag, oh the next match we were tunneled and camped? Killers are toxic that's why

Or, ya know. Play the game to have fun, not sweat. Usually when I am clearly not trying, the sweat survivors come around and we have a good time, even in egc. Its amazing everyone is keeping up this mantra that 'I have to sweat every game because they are." Just try -not- playing optimal. If you can't, you've no real control over the game, the Entity has her claws in you!

You have your experiences, I have mine. I just have doubts about everyone having every game being sweat fests.

Thats a pretty good assessment and write down. We should make this a sticky to the front page and use it as a reference in discussions, so that everyone is on the same page what we talk about.

I tend to play DBD obsessively until I burn out then I don't touch it for months then repeat the cycle. So I always get Iri 1 for both fairly fast and I do it as killer entirely without tunnelling and camping.

Now people can say I must be low MMR etc but then like most killers I win the vast majority of my games so that must impact my MMR to some extent.

In competitive play? Sure, you cannot play nice at all. But in public lobbies I will always maintain you do not have to tunnel or camp to win the vast majority of your matches (camping last hook is perfectly reasonable and excepted though imo).

I try this as well. Sad thing is, this morning everyone pre-ran, pre-dropped and just when I would catch up…. Lithe across the map. Thing is, I love chases(with actual looping and mindgames) but the lack of interaction is just baffling to me. I was playing a no perk freddy for a daily with no addons and no one even bothered to try and loop.

omg I would be ecstatic if I got an m1 killer when I play survivor.

If you are good enough at killer, you can even go out of your way to play nice and still win most of your matches. I refrain from camping and tunnelling most of the time, not seldomly even going out of my way not to despite knowing it would be "optimal" in the moment, and I rarely have trouble in my matches. The MMR cap and lax matchmaker simply mean that once you pass a certain skill/experience/knowledge threshold, many or most of your matches will be relatively easy (as killer or in 4-SWF with 3 other such players).

Proof that it is possible has more than once been provided by good players going on 90+% winstreaks without camping, tunnelling or slugging, and even without using a killer ability altogether (https://twitter.com/HensDBD/status/1688640900677652480). And of course, you don't have to "win" (kill 3 or 4 survivors) 90+% of the time to play this game, you can still have a fun, engaging and worthwhile time getting stages and 1-2 kills in some of your matches.

I was trying to complete a tome challenge for the GunSlinger. I wasnt going to try hard. All I wanted was my easy challenge. ... Anywho..

I get a SWF team. 2 buckle up, for the people, flash bang, 2 flashlights. Swarming me like flies, clicking, tea bagging. Not even trying to go gens. I tried hook, slugging, and they would run up and the person up.

I got a 4k. It felt good. I wish i would recorded it just for laughs.

Everyone can play nice if they want to, but the trade off is that you can't play nice and win all (or even most) of your games.

I always just try to play laid back, because this game is so imbalanced that I don't feel like winning really says much about the player's skill, and I don't really get any validation from it. People who play like winning consistently in DBD actually means something amuse me. That said, I do have a strong competitive side that I can't totally suppress, and if I go up against a super sweaty/bully squad, I can get intense. But we're talking maybe 5-10% of my games.

Most games I just want to have fun, and generally try to match the vibe my opponents are bringing.

I like to win, but it's not the most important thing to me in DBD. If I ever became one of those Blight/Nurse mains who bring their best loadout and methodically tunnel the first hooked surv every single game, I'd be really disappointed in myself. I just refuse to allow myself to care so much that I play like a robot. Losing half my games is preferable.

I just don't think this game is remotely built for that type of intense competitiveness.

tl;dr here is that you can play nice if it's important to you. No one is forcing anyone to sweat, every player is the captain of their own ship.

If winning every game is so important to a person that they feel like they don't have any choice but to play like their life depends on winning, that's on them, not their opponent.

i dont see a fix for this, we just had a game vs. a huntress that didnt tunnel, result 4 escapes and some people dragging time at the open gates. If thats what we give killers when they play nice, why should they? (im not advocating for tunneling, i hate it, but i think some is ruining it for a lot of other people by beeing asshats).

It would be more fun for BOTH sides if that game was balanced around hooks instead of kills. You can also keep that element in place. My proposal has always been simple. Survivors share the FIRST hook state. Meaning that each survivor gets 2 hook states that are their own, but the first 4 are shared. Then, if you hard tunnel someone out, you have to hook them 6 times.

This means that you still can be "eliminated" but it won't start happening to the later half of a match. Then you balance chase times, gen speeds, pallet strength, killer strength, etc. Around this idea that you probably are going to have 4 survivors in the game for 60-70% of a match.

This would also have to come with removing the 4% mechanic, which is dumb anyway. It also means survivors can't just "give up" and remove themselves from the game super early screwing over everyone else in the process.

This! I had a streak of really but games this last couple of days, with lots of BMing and abuse by the survivors, wasting minutes of everyones life at the exitgates and with them calling me names and laughing at me for being such a "baby killer". Enough of this behaviour just erodes my goodwill with survivors and this afternoon I went into full sweat mode and ruthlessly tunneled and camped and played dirty from second one, no matter if it was 5 gens remaining. If the survivors want a vallain to hate, they got one. And surly enough, the salt and the bad steam profil comments where flowing.

And then I had this rather tough match were I played Twins. The sabo survivor and his companion were already out of the game, that sneaky Claudette on the hook and I had spotter and cornered that Mikaela on the other side of the map. We looped around some burning walls (Borgo), she threw a pallet, I broke it, and then she .. .she gave me The Stare! And that suddenly made me stop in my tracks. She even made a step forwards and made me back away. She then pointed at Claudette, her duo SWF friend and made a plea for her. It was very moving, but I downed her and secured my 4K. Lol, of course not! I agreed and the two of them memed around with me for a while and I let them finish the last two gens and then we had a slug race with Victor as the line-judge. It was very wholesome and very fun, and that Mikaela rekindled something in me.

sigh really, this game is something else. Its like a toxic relationship: you just can't let go of it, even though it puts you through a hell of a bad time. And just when you are so filled up with rage and anger, it does something that reminds you of the good, old times and why you love it so much. This won't last, I know that ... but at the moment, it feels good.

Yes, you’re right, but that’s only if the devs rebalance everything. I don’t see that happening anytime soon.

I was speaking from the perspective of removing tunneling and leaving everything the same, which is what most complainers seem to want.

We need to stop confusing playing to win as "being mean" and "playing nice" as some ill defined way of playing to the opponent's advantage.

Its not "nice" to go for 12 hooks just as it isn't "mean" to eliminate someone early for the gains.

These terms are highly subjective, rather indefinable, and completely useless for making game design decisions.

The most egregious offence though is that these terms extend beyond the game to the player - Implying that the player themselves is or isn't nice because they played a certain way. Its a platform for enabling toxicity.

Its not an "ideal world" that a killer would always twelve hook everybody, in fact that is a predictable and uninteresting world. Games have variation and stakes, the more you shoehorn toward one singular outcome the blander the game experience becomes.

If you feel you have to "tunnel" in order to be competitive then maybe look to your own gameplay... are you chasing effectively? are you dropping chase when you should? are you using slugging and hit an run effectively? Its possible to pressure gens and not "tunnel". That said there is no better pressure than eliminating a player so if you get the opportunity to do it then you probably should.

That's not mean that's just DBD its an elimination game and always should be, elimination should be an ever present threat from game start to finish.

Just to apply my own subjective take - when I play survivor I want to try and survive a horror movie, I want the killer to be as "mean" and monstrous as possible, because trying to escape from that, against all odds, is fun.

Please read until the second half. If you want to prevent tunnels from occurring in the first place, you should buy time even if the survivor who successfully rescues you takes two hits and goes down. Survivors who are trapped in a tunnel cannot escape because there is not enough help from those around them. There just isn't enough effort between the survivors.

The problem definitely sits majorly with the matchmaking. That simply is the reality of the game, though, and has been for years and years. If you are a good killer player, you can handedly win the vast majority of the matches the game gives you, regularly even without camping and tunnelling.

Some rebalancing is still in order, but a better (stricter) matchmaking is much more important.

Eh, that might be your region, but good players here basically never have matches where they stand no chance, M1 killer or not. I have legitimately never seen the good players I watch lose a killer pub match in which they were actually trying to win. They can and do have winstreaks of hundreds of matches even on "M1" killers (whatever M1 killer means). The very experiment I referenced shows people winning 90+% of their matches (note: the ones they didn't win they didn't necessarily lose, either) with the most M1est of M1 killers (that is, literally refusing to use an ability), while also refraining from camping and tunnelling.

I also don't subscribe to the idea that an M1 killer can only win if the survivors make a lot of mistakes and they none. Which is an ungraspably vague concept anyway, the decision trees for both sides are so vast and a thousand things may or may not constitute a "mistake", there would likely always be a better choice to be made.

Doesn't mean I think Legion is perfectly competitive against an equally high-skilled 4-player SWF with voice comms, 4 BNPs and whathaveyou, but not only does that simply not happen, but it can still be possible to tunnel out one and in the endgame camp another survivor. I also think the balance changes drastically if they don't have comms, to the point where even the comparably weaker killers stand a perfectly good shot to get at least 6 stages/2 kills, which much as it may not feel good is literally a balanced outcome. With the comparably stronger killers likely on average outperforming survivors notably in that setting. Tunnelling and camping are nigh-mandatory in a setting where the survivors are comparably as skilled, experienced and trying as hard as the killer, and that's something that could warrant rebalancing, although I for one think tunnelling and camping are integral part of the game that should never be sought to be removed entirely. Just nerfed a bit, with compensatory buffs for killers in other respects.