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It sucks that you can’t play nice in this game
In an ideal world the killer would 12 hook everyone, never tunnel and participate in a nice fun game for both sides
Everyday I start the game with this mindset but it soon fades after being greeted with 3 or 4 survivors t bagging at the exit gates
playing “nice” just isn’t optimal, especially against good survivors and I think the problem is the game being balanced around kills, not hooks
tunnelling is far too effective, but often times the killer has no choice but to tunnel, especially on certain maps
I think the game needs another health/ quality of life update. Changes for maps like Badham, the Game ect, Give killers more incentive to spread out hooks while at the same time give survivors more base kit ways to deal with tunnelling.
Matchmaking/ win condition changes would be very welcome as well with more emphasis on quick downs and hook instances as killer, and chase time, stuns and altruistic actions as survivor, instead of just “kill” and “escape”. This would make for much more balanced matches
Comments
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Yeah its unfortunate. To make it work myself i need at least some stall in some way. Trying it with no regression or stall at all doesn't really work unless the survivors also play nice. It comes with the idea of mmr though. You are supposed to be challenged every game.
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Removing all risk from being removed from the match at any point in time would kill the game. It would get stale very quickly.
Dbd at its core is an elimination game. It’s designed to be frustrating in order to make the wins feel great and get your brain addicted to the endorphins that are released from that emotion. Without the struggle, things wouldn’t feel as good and we’d likely quit sooner than later.
Asking to remove the killers agency and to punish them for making the best choice (usually) is asking for a different game that isn’t Dbd.
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DBD doesn't need tunnelling. It did better back when tunnelling was weaker.
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They need to get out of MMR.
Rank based matchmaking was not the best maybe but at least it gave room to players to play nice and chill.
If you were competive player, most likely you would rise to purple and red pretty fast and you would play against same type players. But green and below ranks was pretty chill most times.
But instead of that, we just got terrible new matchmaking which changed everything. And no tweaks will make it good. They just need to take L and remove mmr for good.
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About 2 years ago I probably would have agreed but by now I think MMR isn't the root of the problem. It's our attitude. Old ranks felt pretty similar to how MMR feels now in my opinion. But people want to win no matter what. Meaning, that both sides will play as effective as they can, which forces the other to follow suit.
This is one of the reasons I completely stopped running meta builds. I didn't want my MMR to climb to a point where I'd just get burnt out. The real problem is that many of us want to play nice but not if it means losing. If we were more willing to take a loss (or a few of them), then it would be easier for our MMR to adjust until we can play nice without getting stomped.
The same would probably happen, if they went back to ranks. It might be even worse because then you'd have a feeling that you need to reach a certain rank. MMR being invisible has the advantage that it's no use even speculating on it. Meaning, that (at least in theory) players will be more inclined to care about how their matches feel instead of an arbitrary number, that tries to rank your skill.
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You sure can the only thing stopping people is their own ego.
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You actually can play nice, I do it all the time. Sure you are going to lose some matches but you will win far more than you lose if you're an experienced player. I never tunnel and never camp unless they are overtly toxic and even then I generally prefer to win playing with honour
Remember, most of the DBD player base are low skill/casual survivors and you will get matched with them no matter your assumed MMR (in my experience).
Playing nice is a choice
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all good games have something that people cry about and it doesn't affect the player base at all because 90% of the time its a skill issue. Then once the devs attempt to listen and fix what ever there crying about then the game start to decline because there was never a problem to begin with. It was just a skill issue. So I'm glad behavior is smart enough to realize this tunneling out cry is mostly by entitled survivors and or survivors who are tired of being humbled in there bully squads.
People who complain about tunneling should post clips of them getting tunneled so we can all see the obvious skill issue, but they will never do that they will continue to cry until there hand is held and behavior adds a extremely unfair mechanic that involved zero counter play, just counter. I must say this is not all survivors mind sets just some. EGO.
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I 100% agree DbD doesn't need tunneling. However, I would say tunneling is weaker now than it was before basekit BT and post 6.1 OTR but it's much more common and still overly effective. I think DbD needs a major change to mechanics to make tunneling less effective; perks alone aren't enough to deal with it.
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The base kit makes tunneling more difficult than in the past. That's wrong.
Many survivors do not understand why they are suffering from tunneling behavior from the killer. Therefore, I will try to make speculations and deviate from the facts. None of the players, at least from Japan or Korea, who understand DBD's game system, complain about the tunnels and camps. Chinese don't, but they still have the means and knowledge to counter tunnels and camps.
This is not because of differences in thinking, but because They have actually succeeded against these, and They have a proven record.
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The base kit makes tunneling more difficult than in the past. That's wrong.
Except it disables OTR, and DS got demolished, so it's one partial sprint burst (Which also got nerfed in 6.1), and then it's free reign. That's better than a five second stun.
I don't think so. Everything OTR/basekit did, DS did too, except it added the full duration of the pick-up animation (Which also opens you up to saves from blinds or pallets), then dropped a five second stun. OTR nor basekit do this, and those two are mutually exclusive.
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Even if you don't think so, there are many survivors who make it through the tunnel. Or, if they fail to escape, other survivors are promised escape.
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I think I may need to explain why tunneling is more effective than the past
Pre 6.1.0
- Hit to injure
- Stronger Dead hard
- Hit to down (1st hook)
- Hit on teammate's BT
- Stronger Dead hard
- Hit to down and eat stronger DS
- Hit to down (2nd hook)
- Hit on teammate's BT
- Stronger Dead hard
- Hit to down (3rd hook)
After 6.1.0
- Hit to injure
- Hit to down (1st hook)
- Hit on basekit BT to disable DH and OTR
Hit to down and eatweakerDS (which most people dont use)- Hit to down (2nd hook)
- Hit on basekit BT to disable DH and OTR
- Hit to down (3rd hook).
Sure back then it requires all perk slots for those 2nd chance, doesnt mean tunneling were stronger. If hitting off hook is "harder" than the past...
Remember Pre 6.1.0 had these happens in the background when you're tunneling a survivor in pre 6.1.0
- 3 health state medkit
- 16% extra distance on hit.
- 16sec self healing speed.
- no extra 50sec of Gen time
- broken Coh that teammates can constantly taking turn to body block
- old BNP
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If I play nice and win while not tunneling, usually it's because the survs are very bad (I hate using this word) or when I got sweaty because they were below average and got really challenged
I still try my best not to tunnel, because I find it unfair even if it makes sense
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You’re not expected, nor is matchmaking designed, for you to get a 4K every match.
You can curate your MMR to some degree by sticking to a playstyle: if you only go for 12 hooks your MMR will settle around you averaging 2-3 Kills that way.
But any deviation from that (such as caving back to tunneling in a match that was imbalanced) will set you back to a more meta gameplay MMR.
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I find that matches can still be pretty chill if you don't make a habit of 4King every game.
I can still play "nice" enough for most of my trials (nobody generally dies until there are 2 gens left). That said, I do get my fair share of 0 and level 1 prestige Survivors. I had a Jake the other day that hid by the exit gates all game after he ended up on death hook early. I guess I must be the closest in MMR to these players when the Killer BP incentive is at 100%.
It's got to the point where I have to bring an ebony mori so I don't dump someone out of the game too early because I can't count hooks.
Fair enough if you prefer the challenge of facing stronger opponents, but I guess this also means accepting that you can't always play nice and go for hooks over kills. One of the major downsides of MMR (assuming it's working at all), is that you'll always be going up against opponents that are at least as strong or possibly stronger than you are, until you lose often enough to drop down a bracket. My Survivor games are rough at the moment and nearly every killer I face is a ruthless 4K machine. Just how it goes, I suppose.
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For real, I really tried to curb the toxicity in my last couple of weeks and not tunnel or go for the unhooker etc.
But yesterday and today literally EVERY survivor group seems to be deadset on rilying me up whenever they can, whatever way they can: t.bag at every corner, chainblinds and clicks from the flashligh (technically not toxic, but it wears you down when they do it at every single opportuninty), bodyblocks and trying to deny every single hook, even when no one is at death hook. A successful escape gets rewarded with "ggez" and redicule in the postgame chat.
I guess survivors learned that in order so survivor they have to use every trick in the book and play tough and sweaty, but that means that I will again do so, too, and tunnel whenever I get the opportunity. Its a dog eat dog world and I just don't want to be the laughing stock.
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Perks have no effect unless equipped. Words from DBB official. Please do not remove DS from the conditions without permission. It's up to you, please equip it.
Second, the removal of hook grabs has made hook trading extremely easy. All survivors please do this.
Will it still be tunneled? Please go to the rescue together! The first person gets hit during the rescue and leaves. The second person makes a successful rescue and take one hit. Even if the first survivor return and makes a body block and is knocked down, the person in need of rescue will be protected. If you get tunneled even after buying this much time, you're clearly not good Survivor. Survivors are losing to killers in everything. It is natural that you all will lose survivors life.
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You can play as nice as you like, but just be conscious of the fact that survivor in the VAST majority won't care.
They won't hold anything back, they won't give you nice feedback (in the majority of cases), they won't stop being obnoxious/toxic and they won't stop calling for tunneling/camping or any other excuse if you sometimes till win hard.
They don't care that they drive they few of us that want to be the breath of fresh air for them away by not acknowledging or encouraging it.
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That's DBD for ya you win as killer its because you camped and tunneled you don't win because you didn't want to you're trash and you're ez oh and we're waiting out the entire EGC unless you watch us teabag, oh the next match we were tunneled and camped? Killers are toxic that's why
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I was explaining why tunneling pre 6.1.0 alot harder than today.
But hook trade and everyone go unhook...not related to the tunneling part.
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Or, ya know. Play the game to have fun, not sweat. Usually when I am clearly not trying, the sweat survivors come around and we have a good time, even in egc. Its amazing everyone is keeping up this mantra that 'I have to sweat every game because they are." Just try -not- playing optimal. If you can't, you've no real control over the game, the Entity has her claws in you!
You have your experiences, I have mine. I just have doubts about everyone having every game being sweat fests.
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I understand your point. Personally I'd like to see DS go back to a 5 second stun and have it work on both unhooks. Any Killer that needs buffs after to hit BHVR's desired kill rate could then get buffs that don't involve unhealthy gameplay such as tunneling. The combination of the two should give much better games.
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Thats a pretty good assessment and write down. We should make this a sticky to the front page and use it as a reference in discussions, so that everyone is on the same page what we talk about.
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Exactly! MMR is just a different name for "rank based matchmaking" and uses different metrics - kills & escapes instead of emblems. DBD always had a matchmaking system, even way back when your earned BPs determined wether you ranked up or not.
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I tend to play DBD obsessively until I burn out then I don't touch it for months then repeat the cycle. So I always get Iri 1 for both fairly fast and I do it as killer entirely without tunnelling and camping.
Now people can say I must be low MMR etc but then like most killers I win the vast majority of my games so that must impact my MMR to some extent.
In competitive play? Sure, you cannot play nice at all. But in public lobbies I will always maintain you do not have to tunnel or camp to win the vast majority of your matches (camping last hook is perfectly reasonable and excepted though imo).
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You can’t afford to play nice unfortunately. You’re the killer. Gotta do what you gotta do to get your objective done. It’s just part of the game.
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I try this as well. Sad thing is, this morning everyone pre-ran, pre-dropped and just when I would catch up…. Lithe across the map. Thing is, I love chases(with actual looping and mindgames) but the lack of interaction is just baffling to me. I was playing a no perk freddy for a daily with no addons and no one even bothered to try and loop.
omg I would be ecstatic if I got an m1 killer when I play survivor.
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Honestly I don't really have a strategy as such, I am a survivor main by hours played and I prefer survivor. I do play Nurse for some of those matches too which is a guaranteed win of course.
But my main killer is usually Myers and I do enjoy a bit of Artist and sniping with Pyramid Head. I feel I am actually pretty terrible and P Head too but the average survivor is so low skill I often cant believe how easily I win some.
Don't get me wrong though, I do get absolutely stomped just like anyone else but most matches are a win as killer
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If you are good enough at killer, you can even go out of your way to play nice and still win most of your matches. I refrain from camping and tunnelling most of the time, not seldomly even going out of my way not to despite knowing it would be "optimal" in the moment, and I rarely have trouble in my matches. The MMR cap and lax matchmaker simply mean that once you pass a certain skill/experience/knowledge threshold, many or most of your matches will be relatively easy (as killer or in 4-SWF with 3 other such players).
Proof that it is possible has more than once been provided by good players going on 90+% winstreaks without camping, tunnelling or slugging, and even without using a killer ability altogether (https://twitter.com/HensDBD/status/1688640900677652480). And of course, you don't have to "win" (kill 3 or 4 survivors) 90+% of the time to play this game, you can still have a fun, engaging and worthwhile time getting stages and 1-2 kills in some of your matches.
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You can't remove tunneling in the current format without either some major buffs to some killers/perks or nerfs to maps. Like it is so cool when I decide to play an m1 and I get Iron Works 2 with 3 i pallet loops that are just unmindgameable.
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I was trying to complete a tome challenge for the GunSlinger. I wasnt going to try hard. All I wanted was my easy challenge. ... Anywho..
I get a SWF team. 2 buckle up, for the people, flash bang, 2 flashlights. Swarming me like flies, clicking, tea bagging. Not even trying to go gens. I tried hook, slugging, and they would run up and the person up.
I got a 4k. It felt good. I wish i would recorded it just for laughs.
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It’s an ideal world, for you. Different people have different opinions and ways of having fun.
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Everyone can play nice if they want to, but the trade off is that you can't play nice and win all (or even most) of your games.
I always just try to play laid back, because this game is so imbalanced that I don't feel like winning really says much about the player's skill, and I don't really get any validation from it. People who play like winning consistently in DBD actually means something amuse me. That said, I do have a strong competitive side that I can't totally suppress, and if I go up against a super sweaty/bully squad, I can get intense. But we're talking maybe 5-10% of my games.
Most games I just want to have fun, and generally try to match the vibe my opponents are bringing.
I like to win, but it's not the most important thing to me in DBD. If I ever became one of those Blight/Nurse mains who bring their best loadout and methodically tunnel the first hooked surv every single game, I'd be really disappointed in myself. I just refuse to allow myself to care so much that I play like a robot. Losing half my games is preferable.
I just don't think this game is remotely built for that type of intense competitiveness.
tl;dr here is that you can play nice if it's important to you. No one is forcing anyone to sweat, every player is the captain of their own ship.
If winning every game is so important to a person that they feel like they don't have any choice but to play like their life depends on winning, that's on them, not their opponent.
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You can. Buts devs are to scared to do this.
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I said this 3 years ago. For whatever reason, the devs refuse to balance around hooks. They’d rather punish the killer for trying to win.
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It would be more fun for BOTH sides if that game was balanced around hooks instead of kills. You can also keep that element in place. My proposal has always been simple. Survivors share the FIRST hook state. Meaning that each survivor gets 2 hook states that are their own, but the first 4 are shared. Then, if you hard tunnel someone out, you have to hook them 6 times.
This means that you still can be "eliminated" but it won't start happening to the later half of a match. Then you balance chase times, gen speeds, pallet strength, killer strength, etc. Around this idea that you probably are going to have 4 survivors in the game for 60-70% of a match.
This would also have to come with removing the 4% mechanic, which is dumb anyway. It also means survivors can't just "give up" and remove themselves from the game super early screwing over everyone else in the process.
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I’ll play nice if the survivor(s) boop my snoot, I’ll be a good lil piggy I promise 🥺🐷
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This! I had a streak of really but games this last couple of days, with lots of BMing and abuse by the survivors, wasting minutes of everyones life at the exitgates and with them calling me names and laughing at me for being such a "baby killer". Enough of this behaviour just erodes my goodwill with survivors and this afternoon I went into full sweat mode and ruthlessly tunneled and camped and played dirty from second one, no matter if it was 5 gens remaining. If the survivors want a vallain to hate, they got one. And surly enough, the salt and the bad steam profil comments where flowing.
And then I had this rather tough match were I played Twins. The sabo survivor and his companion were already out of the game, that sneaky Claudette on the hook and I had spotter and cornered that Mikaela on the other side of the map. We looped around some burning walls (Borgo), she threw a pallet, I broke it, and then she .. .she gave me The Stare! And that suddenly made me stop in my tracks. She even made a step forwards and made me back away. She then pointed at Claudette, her duo SWF friend and made a plea for her. It was very moving, but I downed her and secured my 4K. Lol, of course not! I agreed and the two of them memed around with me for a while and I let them finish the last two gens and then we had a slug race with Victor as the line-judge. It was very wholesome and very fun, and that Mikaela rekindled something in me.
sigh really, this game is something else. Its like a toxic relationship: you just can't let go of it, even though it puts you through a hell of a bad time. And just when you are so filled up with rage and anger, it does something that reminds you of the good, old times and why you love it so much. This won't last, I know that ... but at the moment, it feels good.
Post edited by Akumakaji on2 -
DS back to 5 seconds would be a solid start, for one.
They can cross that bridge when they get to it. We got the exact same claims before 6.1., then killers got all those major buffs, and tunnelling just became more prevalent.
So now tunnelling should be nerfed first, and then we can see if killers actually need buffs.
And survivors that try to play nice will be tunnelled, camped, slugged to death, hit on hook, nodded at, WS-spammed and more. Doesn't mean we can't at least push tunnelling back a bit with DS going back to 5 seconds.
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Yes, you’re right, but that’s only if the devs rebalance everything. I don’t see that happening anytime soon.
I was speaking from the perspective of removing tunneling and leaving everything the same, which is what most complainers seem to want.
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It's highly unlikely any amount of incentives or discouragement would rid such behaviours, due to the anonymity and ego of the person playing at the other end of the screen. There are people who play solely for the joy they gain from being as nasty as possible.
Playing nice is down to the individual. Whatever happens, someone can always choose to play in what they consider nice. Then again, one person's understanding of "nice" may conflict with anothers. It is possible to play nice, but will have to realise to keep playing like that will meet some very tough trials.
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We need to stop confusing playing to win as "being mean" and "playing nice" as some ill defined way of playing to the opponent's advantage.
Its not "nice" to go for 12 hooks just as it isn't "mean" to eliminate someone early for the gains.
These terms are highly subjective, rather indefinable, and completely useless for making game design decisions.
The most egregious offence though is that these terms extend beyond the game to the player - Implying that the player themselves is or isn't nice because they played a certain way. Its a platform for enabling toxicity.
Its not an "ideal world" that a killer would always twelve hook everybody, in fact that is a predictable and uninteresting world. Games have variation and stakes, the more you shoehorn toward one singular outcome the blander the game experience becomes.
If you feel you have to "tunnel" in order to be competitive then maybe look to your own gameplay... are you chasing effectively? are you dropping chase when you should? are you using slugging and hit an run effectively? Its possible to pressure gens and not "tunnel". That said there is no better pressure than eliminating a player so if you get the opportunity to do it then you probably should.
That's not mean that's just DBD its an elimination game and always should be, elimination should be an ever present threat from game start to finish.
Just to apply my own subjective take - when I play survivor I want to try and survive a horror movie, I want the killer to be as "mean" and monstrous as possible, because trying to escape from that, against all odds, is fun.
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Why is your kindness dependent on others though?
I've been playing chill on killer ever since becoming a survivor main because I see how tiring it can be.
I get bm'd in exit gates.
I get bagged and clicked.
I get trash talked in end game chat.
But I also have a lot of positive experiences and I have fun whenever I play killer. Regardless of how the survivors treat me I play how I want because its fun to me. And this would be true even if I enjoyed being sweaty.
Other people should be considerations, not the sole dictator of your actions and feelings.
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Please read until the second half. If you want to prevent tunnels from occurring in the first place, you should buy time even if the survivor who successfully rescues you takes two hits and goes down. Survivors who are trapped in a tunnel cannot escape because there is not enough help from those around them. There just isn't enough effort between the survivors.
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I've seen the video, and even from the clippings of the short story, it's clear that there is a skill disparity as survivors who are hit run in the wrong direction to avoid being chased, or are caught in the killer's simple feints. I'm not interested in a story that assumes MMR is not working. If this happens all the time, the problem is not with tactics or game balance, but with MMR.
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The problem definitely sits majorly with the matchmaking. That simply is the reality of the game, though, and has been for years and years. If you are a good killer player, you can handedly win the vast majority of the matches the game gives you, regularly even without camping and tunnelling.
Some rebalancing is still in order, but a better (stricter) matchmaking is much more important.
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It depends on the time of day I play. And while it's true that there are matches where there is a skill disparity that almost never ends, there are also many matches where the opposite is true. As both a killer and a survivor, I have experienced many matches where the killer had no chance. This is not a skill issue, but a theoretical value.
Players with many years of experience, both survivors and killers, say this in unison. "Why did the Survivors want to lose to the M1 Killer in this match? It's because the Killers made almost no mistakes and the Survivors made a lot of mistakes."
I totally agree that MMR is the worst thing ever. But this is the responsibility of the developer.
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Eh, that might be your region, but good players here basically never have matches where they stand no chance, M1 killer or not. I have legitimately never seen the good players I watch lose a killer pub match in which they were actually trying to win. They can and do have winstreaks of hundreds of matches even on "M1" killers (whatever M1 killer means). The very experiment I referenced shows people winning 90+% of their matches (note: the ones they didn't win they didn't necessarily lose, either) with the most M1est of M1 killers (that is, literally refusing to use an ability), while also refraining from camping and tunnelling.
I also don't subscribe to the idea that an M1 killer can only win if the survivors make a lot of mistakes and they none. Which is an ungraspably vague concept anyway, the decision trees for both sides are so vast and a thousand things may or may not constitute a "mistake", there would likely always be a better choice to be made.
Doesn't mean I think Legion is perfectly competitive against an equally high-skilled 4-player SWF with voice comms, 4 BNPs and whathaveyou, but not only does that simply not happen, but it can still be possible to tunnel out one and in the endgame camp another survivor. I also think the balance changes drastically if they don't have comms, to the point where even the comparably weaker killers stand a perfectly good shot to get at least 6 stages/2 kills, which much as it may not feel good is literally a balanced outcome. With the comparably stronger killers likely on average outperforming survivors notably in that setting. Tunnelling and camping are nigh-mandatory in a setting where the survivors are comparably as skilled, experienced and trying as hard as the killer, and that's something that could warrant rebalancing, although I for one think tunnelling and camping are integral part of the game that should never be sought to be removed entirely. Just nerfed a bit, with compensatory buffs for killers in other respects.
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My guy, you suggest giving the killer up to three free hits, one of which would be a free down, and then say that it's the survivor's fault if they're still getting tunnelled.
You're basically insisting that survivors should hard reward the killer for tunnelling, and that it's their fault if the killer decides to tunnel in spite of all that.
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