Did anyone actually play pig on the ptb? I don't know where else to search gameplay of ptb pig.
Outside of a few youtube videos, I cant find pig gameplay of the ptb changes, does anyone happen to have some streamer VOD or something? I would appreciate it. If you dont have any, dont worry, I dont think there's a lot anyway.
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This was a long time ago so my memory isn't 100%, but as far as I recall there was no PTB to playtest the Pig. Pre-chapter PTBs only become a regular occurrence from Clown onwards, and Pig was released right before him. Up to that point, the PTBs only happened when the devs were genuinely trying to experiment with a specific change and fully intended to use the feedback to decide what they would do next.
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No that far lmao, I meant this one, the 6.7.0 one, with the ambush buffs
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Check some of Scott Junds Vods, he played her quite a lot during the past week...
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Oh! That does make more sense. :P
Sadly though, I can see why it would be hard for to you find that as well, I'm not sure there was much of it. It's pretty hard to play any killer except the new one when a PTB launches, for one thing. Add that a lot of other killers besides Pig got changes too and I don't think many people got around to trying out the new ambush changes on her.
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I guess I'll have to be patient, thanks for the answer and trivia btw!
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RadiantHero recorded a bunch here:
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Lifesaver
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Most of the videos I've seen from killer mains have been "Ambush buffs are great and I don't care about the RBTs" and they're mostly from people who never played Pig to begin with.
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If you search "pig buffs" on YouTube, you'll find afew good ones from the recent PTB.
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you know... you both say "with the ambush buff a nerf to compensate is in order" or something like that...
but why? she could have gotten the buffs with no nerfs and it would have been perfectly justified. hell she could have got buffs to the rbt aswell. alongside a nerf that actually deals with the scream builds ofc.
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Not gonna lie, there is an element of tact there. There is a fair argument that a nerf might be needed for her scream builds, but other than that we didn't want any nerfs at all.
However if you ask for buffs and only buffs, you'll be ignored (look at what happened to Trickster). You have to remember the problem for BHVR is that Pig performs disproportionately better in low MMR, similar to Pinhead, which makes up a large bulk of the playerbase.
Thus if you only have the ambush buffed, this problem in low MMR gets worse, and when you have not a insignificant number of players saying "this change is fine, it doesn't reduce the slowdown at all, and it stops tunneling Pigs", which is an understable, yet highly damaging misunderstanding and downplaying of her power, you've got to ensure you're taking others points on board and you present your argument in good faith.
If the Pig has to be nerfed, we would much rather it be on our terms than the terms of the people who don't like Pig.
...I guess we'll see if it works 😅
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I played a ton of pig on Ptb and recorded my matches. If you want to, i can share the links.
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And when it's from people who do play Pig our opinions don't count.
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Yep. Scorpionz has also said that the Nerf to the RBTs does not matter and if someone thinks it matters, they are the problem.
But hey, Pig Main with 11k hours on the game (and most of them on Pig). Surely he does not know what he is talking about.
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I used to watch him quite a bit when he streamed full time, and basically got to know Pig over his guide. He always ran chase addons only and no slowdown.
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I just checked the Vod of his stream and it is quite funny how he is like yeah the slowdown is exactly the same as before, the only thing that is harder now is tunneling someone with a hat on, but the buffs she got are really huge ^^
I mean from that standpoint traps are really only gamedelay and chase is the main thing.
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That's the point, you can't mindlessly cheese kills via traps and ambush is a far better chase power. The strongest filler tile on Macmillan is an auto lose vs pig now if the pig has hands. That factual statement is huge for pig.
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Thats the thing, the Slowdown is unchanged. The Survivors have to spend the same amount of time to do searches, they also have to spend the same amount of time to get their Traps off. It is just harder to get headpops with that, but Pig was never a Killer which should be played in a way to tunnel the people with a Trap on their head.
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While I agree with you, too many of Pig's addons are centered around doing just that. What's the point of making survivors who wear the RBT exhausted if you're not going to chase those survivors? I feel like she needs a major addon pass.
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Interesting to see Scorpionz opinion on that, he was one of the main people I learned Pig from. I studied his guides a lot, and he regularly talks about how you almost always want to ignore survivors with a head trap, he was always very clear on that point. There are situations you don't, such as if they run into you, or they're searching near you while your in chase, but more often you ignore a survivor with a trap, because they are not doing gens.
This guide was one where he talks about Pig traps in such a manner (9:45 - 14:19), it's dated now, but you'll notice that he makes the point you can build for an end game Pig, that is super high risk, but also high reward. This is encouraging thinking of looking at alternative ways of using your head traps, but also acknowledges this is not how you play Pig optimally, which is largely our point.
The addition of scream builds via Hex: Face the Darkness and Ultimate Weapon has made this less true, she now CAN force head pops viably, and that is what we aim to correct.
If you remove scream builds from the equation, this is the general consensus of Pig play. If you chase a survivor off Jigsaw boxes you aren't using your time effectively, but the implied point is that if the survivor gives you an opportunity, you take it. You don't have mobility on the Pig, so if you have a chance for a quick down you take it. You see this in his own game footage in this section against David.
The point we keep making is those opportunities will be rarer or even non existent to come by, if the survivor isn’t pressured on a time crunch... and more importantly, the current changes do NOT address the problematic play style.
I love Scorpionz, and I don't at all claim to know better than him, but considering there are a number of Pig mains I know who use a similar play style to him, being mindful of Jigsaw Boxes and survivor searching patterns if you're paying attention can absolutely reward you with survivor mistakes.
E.g. knowing which way the headtrapped survivor went off hook to get their traps off, you can intuit where that survivor will likely end up when they get to search 3 or 4. If you chase another survivor who ends up heading that same direction, this can result in pressure by proximity and scoring another down, or dare I say it, a head pop. Though you shouldn't bank on it, cause they may get their trap off on box 1 or 2.
Like we've kept saying, you don't want to play for head pops, but you do want to keep this more nuanced part of her RBT pressure in mind if you can. I can't do it cause I suck, but I have seen Pigs who do, and to me it's very impressive to see. This isn't playing scummy, it's being mindful of where you can apply pressure, and displaying a high level of tactical awareness, the nuance of which I do feel doesn't benefit the game to remove.
If I've said anything demonstrably false, do please correct me.
Post edited by UndeddJester on2 -
I mean it should be fairly obvious that the addons on many killers are either trash, focus some random stuff and not the main power or are super situational and what not... Think about Demo, he has like 4 addons that affect his main power, the shred, and every single other addon is about the portals.
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Isnt that the guy who believes slinger was a nurse level killer? But no I actually agree with him in SOME aspects, like pig should be more chase focused even if hes right I just cant take him serious after his slinger takes.
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This is true. In my opinion, RBTs should also not inflict Mangled or Exhaustion, because those just encourage to tunnel the person with the Trap (since it is a huge advantage that they might still be injured due to Mangled or just cannot use any Exhaustion-Perk).
I think the changes they are doing are a step in the right direction. More focus on Stealth and her Dash and less focus on her Traps, but there can certainly be done more for that.
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If we think about old Deathslinger, he was not really counterable. So to an extend, this is quite on Nurse-Level.
But I dont really know if he made this take or not.
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I think occasionaly forcing Survivors of Boxes is totally fine. But outright making sure that they cannot do Boxes while using Tampered Timer, a Scream-Build and Crate of Gears is not really fine. Sure, it is a strategy, but it is not really playing Pig in the way how she was intended.
And there is evidence that she was intended to use her Power as Slowdown, the Devs went out of their way to make Headtraps not activate once all Gens are done, because you are supposed to use them during the game and not just in Endgame for Headpops.
And I think the general way of powers like this is the correct way. Same applies to Sadako - something which can kill Survivors before they were hooked twice should not be overly lethal. It should be a way to slow down the game and it should also kill the Survivor if they ignore it. But it should not result in consistent Kills.
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They need to increase crounch speed to 4.0
Increase dash to 18% instead of 15%
Not allow survivors to remove the RBT in the first try, and increase the removing time of 12 seconds to 16 seconds (now that survivors have extra 30 seconds this will not be a problem)
after these small buffs she will become a decent tier B killer
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And how many Xeno add ons are about Flame Turrets?
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Here's a couple of PTB Pig videos to help from (respectively) RedGamingGears, TwoKnee, SpookyLoopz, and Bazazell:
My only gripe is the videos seem to use the Pig's Ambush related addons, which kind of defeats the purpose in my opinion (I haven't watched TwoKnee's vid so could be wrong there)
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Your welcome 🐽
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I totally agree, which is why as a collective of Pig mains we put through suggestions for nerfing her RBTs that did that. Get rid of the scream problem, and limit the Pigs ability to interrupt timers by forcing her to actually chase survivors off boxes herself and pause their timer.
Our concern with the 30s increase and Jigsaw Box changes wasn't that we felt the motivation for doing so was wrong, it's the severe cramping of Pig's ability to gauge the survivors time and predict their movements, as well as decreasing the chance of capitalising on mistakes brought on by that limited time. You don't ever push survivors off a box with this change, because there is literally no point in doing it (it was already something not worth doing on the current 150s RBTs as Scorpionz points out). The 12-18s you take off the survivor, will never be worth the time it costs you as the Pig to secure a down.
The hill I will die on from all of this, is the current changes remove any nuance of Jigsaw box pressure, while also not addressing the actual problem of a Pig tunneling a survivor for head pops with H:FtD and UW. Neither the 30s increase, or the aura removal address those problems. Our suggested changes do, while still allowing for the ability to put a head trapped survivor in a difficult position if we guess/are mindful of their box search route/progress while chasing other survivors.
If you check this game from Knightlight's perspective at 5:00:00, there is a great example of using Jigsaw box pressure without tunneling.
The Pig here (who I won't namedrop) understood between the survivor who was hooked, the survivor they had headtrapped, the survivor they had down, and Knightlight looking for the save, that time was completely on their side. They had all the cards, and Knightlight missed it, forcing the Thalita to make a risky decision, costing her life, and the survivors the game. This not a low level game... and a great example of really good, non tunnel head trap pressure.
You add 30s to the timers, and this scenario simply would never happen...
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Most of the videos I've seen, the players use the addons. What I find hilarious is, that most of this was possible before the buff as well.
Placebo effect in full force.
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Yeah... and I wish they'd do an update on Demo's addons too. Either way, the Pig addons seem counter productive towards what the RBTs are meant for. They aren't exactly buying you time if you are chasing that survivor. It's like designing a Plague addon that applies mangled on survivors that you manage to fully infect if they are already injured. Why are you wasting time puking on an injured survivor that much?
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It reminds me of a video I saw during Sadako's first rework when they tested her new power with Iri Tape, which basically gave Sadako her old power...
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He's completely wrong about Amanda's Letter, completely underrated add-on that now has no downside and doesn't need reworked. Pig is buffed overall not nerfed even though i think changing the timer to 3 mins was a bad change.
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She does. Why would you blind or mangle or exhaust or any of that over the years a surv with a party hat on if the intention is not to go after them. Fundamentally built to encourage tunneling.
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Some people do a lot to get their view-counts in. Id just love to see them stick to facts and not just ride the hype - train. Especially, when the hype - train isnt even there to begin with.
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I dont think she needs a major addon pass. Many addons are fine and even creative. But i do agree, that some addons are questionable at best.
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I'm sure the pig mains like cm winters and druss got videos up detailing how this is a nerf but i only watch one pig player. @aven mention him up above. The goat pig player Scorpionz
I always played pig as a M2 killer because of scorpionz way before the ptb. The dash was never bad u just needed to run addons for it like doctor. The pig definitely got nerf overall but i don't mind it. Strategizing around the boxes as they call it...was pretty cheesy in my opinion. She will be stronger in chase but will definitely get let consistent kills in all mmr brackets.
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Its actually quite smart.
If you look at the data, it shows that pig is actually one of the higher killers in terms of kill rate.
However, i'd bet that her kill rate in low mmr is significantly higher than her kill rate in high mmr. She probably does well against newer players, but poorly against top tier players. So the question to that is, why? Well the traps probably confuse newer players. They don't understand how they work, they can't figure out when they are active vs not, and they generally get headpopped way more often than they would in high mmr.
In high mmr, pig struggles heavily to get a down because her ambush is horrible in chase and survivors can easily "leave the loop" and it leads to hear not being good. On top of that, the traps don't really do much in terms of headpops, because the survivor knows what to do, but what they are good at is delaying the game.
When you take these things into account, it makes sense.
- You buff the ambush in small ways that is going to make her much better in high mmr. But in low mmr, adding 0.3 seconds on ambush duration, and 0.2 m/s faster movement speed on crouch and 0.3 seconds off of crouch time isn't going to really change anything. But in high mmr its a massive massive buff, just take a look at scott jund's videos on her. She is much more viable as an anti-loop now.
- You nerf the trap game a bit, this is going to nerf her significantly in low mmr, where the traps make a huge difference. But in high mmr games, it won't effect them really at all, because high mmr pigs aren't using traps to get kills, they are using them to slow the game down. So the pig doesn't care if she can't see the box auras, or if the timer is slightly longer. Because you aren't getting kills with traps, you are forcing that survivor into a "timeout" of sorts off of gens and healing, giving you more time to chase other survivors.
These are actually the types of changes that are the perfect example of good balance decisions that BHVR should be making. You buff bad killers in high mmr, while nerfing them in low mmr where they are much stronger.
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And it waters Pig down to another dull anti-loop killer whose power is "go fast and hit someone" while the actual interesting part of her power that affects the match the most is reduced to a mild inconvenience.
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Every time the devs release a killer whose power is about map control: I.E. sadako anyone? Pinhead with his box and the franklins build? Old skull merchant? Survivors complain. Anytime that a killer has a way to force survivors to not hold m1 on a gen, suddenly its the worst thing in the world and "terrible design" so the devs are literally just giving people what they ask for.
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"I'm sick of touching generators all the time."
"Okay, here's something else to do."
"No, I don't want to do that, I want to touch generators."
I don't envy BHVR, not one bit.
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Indeed. Survivor mains perplex me. They often complain about killers. Remember how much "fun it was to go against billy"? and suddenly you are seeing people complaining about billy? Because they didn't like going against billy because he was "fun" they liked going against billy because he was bad.
I'd be curious to see a poll of strictly survivor mains voting who their favorite killers are to go against. I'd guess they'd all be the worst ones, while any one of them perceived as good is ranked really low.
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I agree 💯. It’s silly and behavior needs to keep their variety. I love map control for my style better than hard chase killers. If I did I would just play spirit.
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I also would love to see such of a poll. I still think the only reason Billy was the most beloved killer among survivors was because he was almost always a guaranteed win for them. Since Billy before the rework was both really hard to play and sucked the only ppl who played him was ppl who didn't really care about winning so survivors had a easy win against Billy most the time. They either get a new Billy player who they could easily stomp or a "chill" Billy main who was more worried about curving than actually winning the game. Now Billy is much better and has more players playing him, they hate him because he isn't the easy win killer anymore. They actually have to play the game against Billies now instead sitting on a gen.
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that just makes pig, freddy 2.0.
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Sadako games feel just as fast vs strong teams. whatever slowdown is, it is not working. I barely get any mori's with new sadako. Most of the time, All the kills are with 3 hooks. If I do get a mori, it is because survivor new/not good. there is no point in having status effect that says you can mori but you can't ever mori. currently, I am using videotape copy+bloody finger nails, so you can't say i am not using condemn add-on's because i am. It is just not working apart from playing indoor maps like Gideon's. or weak teams.
Pig being game-delay makes more sense because 12 second x 12 boxes+walking time per box. 1 second insertion times for tapes on other hand is not much game-delay.
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