Grim Pantry (Backwater Swamp)

so many things to get stuck on, barely any good loops. only main building is good. sometimes gens spawn way too close to each other. Sometimes rng is so bad that there is only grass or maybe a hill in the middle with no loops at all

Both the swamps I absolutely adore the design of (I know I am in the minority here), but they are so RNG dependent. It is less about whether they are Survivor or Killer sided and more about which the RNG landed on as it can definitely be either or. Not a fan of the main on Pantry, I just don't bother chasing there as it is too much of a time waste and too isolated from the rest of the map to even bother. The map size is too big. Killer interactables like Plague's fountains spawn in the far corners of the map and there will be matches where it will be flat out too time consuming to collect your power leaving you as a spicy m1 killer.

i enjoy this map more than the pale rose, but recently i've noticed that the middle of the map tends to spawn with way less safety. in particular i remember one match where the only tile in the middle was a hill, with generators on either side. not sure if this a generation bug or if i'm placebo'ing myself here. the totem spawn logic on this map is notoriously flawed, with two totems pretty much guaranteed to spawn in between the shack and the middle of the map. the main building is mostly fine, though it can be hard to navigate at times with only a handful of entrances that can be easy to miss. the edges of the map generate almost nothing, with the occasional pog-log. it makes the map feel larger than it is in practice

My most hated map, it really needs a rework in my opnion.

Grim Pantry has many safe loops (main building is arguably one of the strongest compared to other maps), but it's way too big and hard to navigate, it's super easy to get stuck in many areas of the map, the visuals are way too dark, hooks are very far from each other (some of them are often in corners where there is literally nothing but a rock or tree). Totem spawns and killer-specific objectives are often in corners as well, away from any safety.

I think this map should be shrinked by removing empty zones in the corners. RNG is also an aspect that should be mitigated, as it can be really frustrating to unexperienced players. Main building should be tweaked a bit as well, expecially the lower level.

I don't like the visuals either because they're too dark, but I guess that's just subjective.

survivor sided map due to main building with 3 connected windows. vs m1 killer, you can vault singular window, then vault furthered window to left or right depending what side rng singular window spawn. whichever direction killer turns, left or right, you can always make it to singular window looping 3 times until singular window blocks. This is because you have clear line of sight of the killer and the killer has go around window or vault window. if he vault window, you can vault opposite window.

Main building is like safe T-L loop with no mindgames. Loop needs to be weaker, other than that, the map is ok balanced.

This maps stinks, M1 killers will struggle. Why are there pallets and windows every two feet?.

I dont think this map favors killers or survivors-- its just all around outdated and feels really bad to play in modern dbd.

Main building is too strong. Survivors running early can easily cost M1 killers a minute to catch up with the windows upstairs. It also needs a visual update.

I love this map

One of the worst designed maps DBD has. Gen and tile spawns are wildly inconsistent and the main building is awful to play.

In like 90% of games, only a single gen will spawn in main and all six other gens spawn in the rectangle that excludes main. Typically survivors just beeline straight for the main building because chasing anyone in there is a really bad idea. The main building also interacts extremely poorly with certain killer powers like pinhead's chains, which often spawn on the wrong level.

The pier is annoying and it's extremely hard to figure out which random layout it has just from looking at it. Pog logs can spawn next to shack but it's really inconsistent. The elevation is terrible for many killer powers like nemesis and artist.

This map also has one of the absolute worst main generator killer prop spawn I have ever seen:

This is supposed to be the subway exit for the main building generator.................. just absolutely atrocious.

I don't know if I ever enjoyed playing a game on grim pantry.

Grim Pantry is a decidedly survivor sided map. Main building on it is simply obscene and is something that a killer shouldn't willingly chase. The rest of the map is inconsistent and the strength of it varies considerably but main building is far too safe.

Setting aside the issues with main building you have the inconsistent strength of the pier which can go from very strong to quite weak, you have the inconsistency of the only jungle gym tile on the map, you have the inconsistency of the fishing hut doors being open / closed, the inconsistency of gen spread, and the inconsistency of filler pallet strength (and the ridiculousness of pog logs too.)

As killer it feels bad loading into a map with elevation changes that can significantly affect your power, that's massive, and that has an incredibly strong main building that everyone is going to want to run. As survivor it feels bad loading in and seeing you got a weak pier, a 3 gen that will take coordination to break, and that your best line of defense is to hold w inside a very strong main building and hope it buys time because the killer commits to a chase that will cost them the game.

I don't see a way to keep the map in the game and make it fun without a significant rework. Main building needs toning down, there should be additional jungle gym tiles, the map should be more consistent in gen spread, overall loop strength (areas that aren't main and the best pier should be stronger, areas that are main and the best pier should be weaker) and the map should have much more consistent hook and hatch spawns.

Slightly survivor sided.

The main building is a true fortress for survivors. Also the bottom floors of main and the cabin are hard to navigate for both sides.

Suggestion : remove one window and one pallet in the upper floor of the main building and open some walls in the bottom floor of both the main and the cabin.

The map is on the bigger side, I believe it should be a bit smaller.

(Some of my feedback here, as some of it applies generally to Backwater Swamp, also will apply to Pale Rose. I'm also giving my feedback aware that Backwater is getting a visual rework some time in the future.)

The Backwater Swamp maps offer some of the most opportunities for unique gameplay affordances out of most of the realms in DBD thanks to its unique shape, however it does not seem to take advantage of these opportunities to the best that it could be.

The maps are very open, much like the Coldwind Farm maps, and as Survivor the best way to traverse the map without getting spotted by the Killer is by using the tall grass. Some stealth killers like Ghostface can also use the tall brush to their advantage! I like being able to use vegetation for coverage in maps, because it is not an opportunity you can find on every map. Hiding in vegetation is incredibly risky, fun, exciting, and scary!

After being in the game for almost 7 years, I only just this month realized that the Backwater Swamp maps exist in a sunken valley as they are to represent a "drained lake" (yes, even despite the piers and the boats). I think there could be visual elements added that better reinforce the idea of raised ground being "above the lake" and the lowered ground being "drained lake" - a better visual contrast between the two sections.

Earlier within the last year, I believe on a Reddit AMA, it was mentioned that elements of elevation that don't serve gameplay are going to be stripped from the maps. I agree on the front that the elevation changes don't always serve Backwater Swamp in the best ways. Visually, it gives the realm a very unique identity.

The pier labyrinth that appears on both versions of the map are really the sections that best take advantage of the map's verticality, though. Both piers offer very exciting and dynamic gameplay. My chases around the Piers are consistently some of my favorite chases that happen on Backwater Swamp!

The raised edge sections barely have any gameplay elements to play around; as Survivor, the only couple resources that may appear on the map's edge are incredibly strong resources such as the "Pog Logs" or the god pallet that can spawn behind shack on Grim Pantry. The "Pog Log" structures that spawn on Backwater Swamp spawns so far away from any other tile, generator, or resource, that it feels like a waste of time to chase there as a Killer without an "anti-loop" ability, and it feels too risky to run to as Survivor as it's so far removed from other structures.

The edge of the map only really offers affordance for Stealth gameplay for Survivors otherwise. While these opportunities for Stealth are greatly appreciated and welcomed, it's encouraging Survivors in places where Killers would never patrol to, making the stealth on the edge of the map a little too strong.

Even though the raised terrain provides a decent vantage point for Killers to spot Survivors from, there is often no reason for a Killer to patrol the edge of the map, because it's so far out of the way from any generators and for too little chance of reward (catching a hiding survivor). This makes stealthing around the outside of the map a little too strong for Survivors.

The multi-story structures found throughout the Backwater Swamps (main, the cabin, and piers) give very unique gameplay opportunities for both sides to play around thanks to their verticality and labyrinthine-like structures, ranging from stealth gameplay to mindgames where one side can cut the other off in unexpected ways, particularly via stairs or holes in the ground. And, of course, Balanced Landing users rejoice. The emergent gameplay that results from the multi-story buildings gives Backwater Swamp a since of gameplay identity, and consistently provide some of the most memorable moments when playing in the realm.

The Grim Pantry itself is too terribly strong for Survivors. The single window in main (pictured below) enables loops to be stretched out for terribly long periods of time, as both Killers and Survivors must loop around the whole structure 3 times AND THEN there are multiple pallets to be used both on the top floor and the bottom floor. The strength of the pallets in main themselves are fine, but when combined with this window that forces players to loop the entire structure multiple times, things can become very frustrating for Killer.

The double windows that spawn as depicted below are actually quite fun to play around - it's an incredibly small loop, it's very unsafe to play around as Survivor, and there is no setup like it anywhere else in the entire game! These windows are fine, but they can be chained back into the single window on the other side, which makes them really strong when played by a Survivor well.

The map-wide and generator-based events that occur on Backwater are also favorite features of the map! The murder of crows that take off and broadcast to everyone when a player is at the main building (both Grim Pantry and Pale Rose) are fun; the gates on Cabin and Grim Pantry that open and open/block different routes on different elevations when their corresponding generators are completed offer dynamic gameplay elements.

The Grim Pantry being able to spawn in different rotations is another fun and dynamic element, but it can lead to some frustrations when the stairs up are not in front, as Survivors have a clear vantage to see the Killer approaching main from most angles, giving them plenty of time to run early and hide where they'll never be found before the Killer even reaches main.

As Killer, there is often very little reason to chase at Main Building on Grim Pantry. Collectively the resources in main are too strong, and not always being able to consistently and quickly access the 2nd floor only exacerbates the amount of time spent here. As Killer, it is often best to just ignore Main Building on Grim Pantry entirely unless you have nowhere else to be.

The generator that spawns in Main Building is far-separated from any other generators, as well. This makes patrolling the Grim Pantry even less worth it as Killer, as you will spend way too long on one strong chase in main, and it's so far removed from any of the other action happening on the map that the chases here are completely isolated and can stay here without interference from others: Chases in Grim Pantry main can hold their own for a long time before being chained into any of its adjacent tiles or generators, decreasing the likelihood of the Killer to stumble upon other Survivors mid-chase, which greatly takes away from the amount of Pressure that Killers can put onto a team.

When main generator is completed early, which it almost always is because Killers tend to avoid chasing in Main altogether because they know how futile it can be to chase here, it becomes a go-to hiding spot for survivors to meet up and heal and reset. It's such a massive section of the map that the killer now has no reason to patrol or pass through with no objectives on this side of the map, with tons of line of sight blockers and an inside section.

One pain point that often occurs when playing as Survivor on Grim Pantry is that the section depicted below, the lowered section between main and the rest of the map, can often feel treacherous and impossible to cross should any of the limited resources here be depleted. Early on, chasing through here is fine, but towards late game it can feel impossible to cross this section without taking damage unless you chain it with the Grim Pantry. I find that often as Survivor, we keep the upper-hand until resources in this section are all depleted, creating a dangerous No Man's Land-type area. Then games quickly turn south.

It is up to the Survivors to be mindful of the resources they deplete, of course, but these resources being depleted often turns the map into being separated even further into "2 sections" - the top section, and then the bottom section which is really just main. This even further separates any action in main from the rest of the map for both roles.

Playing around hatch, out of all the realms, is hands-down the most frustrating on both sides when it comes into play on the Backwater Swamp maps; I don't think the hatch should spawn on the edges of the map, on top of the hills. These areas are, again, too far out of the way and making searching for the hatch a total slog, because there is so much edge map out of the way from any structures to check.

The Grim Pantry map and Backwater Swamp realm offers plenty of unique gameplay affordances to Dead by Daylight: Elevation play, global and dynamic map events, exciting structure variation, vantage points with multi-story buildings, unique labyrinthine tiles, foliage for stealth and other stealth gameplay. These elements give Grim Pantry an irreplaceable spot in Dead by Daylight's realms, and I would love to see these elements remain in future versions.

Changes should be made to reduce the pain points of Killers patrolling the map, and reduce the strength of loops in main by reducing the strength of the loop created by the window I pictured.

Structures or weak resources added to the edges of the map, in addition to objectives (generators) appearing around the edges would reduce the amount of "dead space" that Killer players don't even bother to play around, making the map as a whole a much more playable space for both roles.

For some of the generators that can spawn around the map that are not in a structure and not in a corner, guaranteeing one to spawn on the edge of the map would give Killers more reason to patrol the edge map and reduce the strength of hiding at edge map, while making sure it doesn't spawn in corners makes it so the Killer won't have to go too far out of their way on patrol.

One possible solution I propose: due to the strength of main building's line of sight blockers and isolated-ness, it may be better to bring main towards the center, which if combined with changes that weaken the strength of main would enable Survivors to better traverse the map late-game without putting main in too a disadvantageous position for Killers to chase through. To compensate for the move and to create less play space that is "out of the way" for Killers to patrol, Squishing out the "cubby" that is built out for main by making it shallower and wider and swapping its the generator that used to spawn in the middle of the lake with Main's current location. An incredibly rough idea of what that may look like, but this is by no means the one "perfect" solution for Grim Pantry:

If I could say this favours neither, I would, this map genuinely feels awful to play on, hatch spawn is a mess and I am just not a fan of the loops on this map.

The map i feel like is the most outdated and definitely needs to be worked on, either adding in something new like the breakable walls or revamping some of the loops like the big boat on Pale Rose for example, it just needs a bit of a glow up i'd say

It's probably one of the more the balanced maps tbh, but mainly it's just a little ugly, and doesn't feel great to play from either side, and especially little guys, like the good guy, and the map needs to be brought together, the log window loop that can spawn on the outskirts of the map can hurt so bad as killer sometimes, hatch being able to spawn out there is pretty annoying

I actually kinda like the swamp maps tbh. Really my only issue with Pantry is the Pantry itself, as for certain killers it can be difficult to chase survivors (looking at the double window on top), but it's not dreadful. Surprisingly, I think the swamp maps are one of the few og realms that don't need much changing.

Side point: The Backwater Swamps needs a unique wall instead of the current one. I made a suggestion about this along time ago, Example:

Aesthetics etc same as Pale Rose obviously (Realm Beyond rework needed, maps in general need better lightning/atmosphere like in the artwork or even older DbD, more Swamp-y, different elevations are nice, corners/edges weird) - also, new swamp maps and also that one map from the pre release demo should finally be added!!

Main can be stupidly survivor sided on this one especially on more inexperienced killers, but otherwise it’s okay and balances out I guess? Can be very overwhelming for certain killers that are not super mobile but well.. general DbD problem and not map specific.

I think the only reason why this map favors survivors is cuz of how strong the main building is, the window spawns upstairs can be really strong, some of them could be replaced with breakable walls honestly, and downstairs can be very disorientating due to how many quick turns there are and how claustrophobic it is, along with the fact that most killer powers are not super useful downstairs so you end up just being an M1 killer, if the main building was toned down honestly I don’t think this map would be that bad