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I always try to be, but this was not a proper discussion.
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While I understand where your point is coming from, 1 thing that just doesn't make sense in your argument, is how is doing this more effective than regular tunneling at low MMR? You can go for it if you want... but it's extremely inefficient.
If you go after a head trapped survivor either chasing or downing them, you pause the timer. That is literally identical to regular tunneling... as the head trap might as well not exist, and any notion a Pig RBT helps you tunnel by virtue of survivors panicking to get a trap off, loses out with even a minor level of thought spared to the myriad of Killers way better tunneling than Pig... e.g. Blight, Nurse, Wesker, Xeno, Demogorgon and ofc Pyramid Head, and whole slew of others with way more efficient anti-loop and chase down powers...
If you try to kill a survivor by crouching after them to pop their head... you end up wasting so much time doing this. It's 2 and half minutes... 3 survivors left alone for that length of time should be able to pop 3 or 4 gens easily, even in the lowest of low MMRs and even with things like Deadlock to slow them down... Do also bear in mind they already popped 1 in order for the trap to be active, and that also doesn't count any of the progress they got during the time you had to chase or down the survivor...
Maybe you're referring to some kind of hybrid playstyle, where you regularly check in on boxes.... but then ofc if we assume you're trying to trap multiple survivors, there is also the possibility they complete searches and they had the 1 or 2 trap all along, unless you get at least 3 out, you can't bank of a 4 box trap to net you your kill... and if you're getting 3 traps out there, you're leaving time for people to get traps off... so I just can't see how you can call this a genuine gamebreaking problem that needs hefty nerfs to resolve...
If its such a significant problem, why isn't it done by every Pig player? It isn't... because it's crap and doesn't win you the game most of the time against anyone even remotely competant.... and even if you constantly score 4ks, you're gonna go up against people where it won't work eventually... and once you reach that point it'll almost never work. They'll happily tea bag you to death with 1 hooks and 0 kills.
The only reason its even remotely viable right now is scream builds... this is unfun true enough, and something that would be much healthier to target with nerfs, which none of the proposed nerfs in PTB did. However importantly, even with scream builds... the Pig is still FAAAAAR from overpowered.
Head pops only come in when Pig's are trying to win, when they get the RNG, identify the RNG, move to captialise on the RNG, and survivors meanwhile don't notice it. Radiant's game vs. Knightlight highlights this perfectly, and is a shining example of high level non tunnel Pig play... and as Radiant will admit... that game was on a knife edge that needed the RNG and survivors to make a bad mistake in order to win... You can hardly call that an overpowered killer that can't be countered.
Post edited by UndeddJester on1 -
Of which people?
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Of the people the comment was referring to of course, in this case the Pig's players.
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Don't throw stones in glass houses.
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I understand your perspective but nevertheless it is an extremely common playstyle for this killer—because it works.
I made my point clear on what I think is more efficient. So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that.
However, this is the part that still works. This wasn't nerfed. Everything else was. So really we are both not on opposite sides but on the same. I would like this strategy to become less popular but nerfing her normal play style (occasionally interrupting a survivor to steal their time) is not the way to do it. You don't need to see boxes and you don't need the 2.5 minutes timer over the 3 minutes to make this work because you only use the very base mechanics of a M1 killer (and maybe her ambush around loops).
while it’s not the way the character is meant to be played it catapults her kill rates because it offers no real counter play.
This is a dangerous claim to make. Because the devs have never said anything in that regard and you could make the same claim with pretty much every strategy you don't like. Until the devs tell us: "This is the way the game is meant to be played and everything else is tolerated at best." this doesn't work. We really don't know how each killer is meant to be played.
I reckon, everything that's not against the rules in any way, is considered the way the game is meant to be played and this is something that I like about DBD. You have a lot of different ways to play.
In my experience players will prioritize trying to remove the head trap over anything else. And if you keep pushing them off the boxes or even slug them, they become desperate and essentially throw the game or simply die to the trap.
I agree. This was the exact problem with a 3 minutes timer. You have too much time to do other stuff, which is amplified by the fact that the Pig player will no longer know where to go to interrupt you, so the trap becomes a side objective. This is what I argued against @Aven_Fallen.
So in short, they nerfed her more skillful play style while keeping the problematic ones just as they are. You can still walk around with scream perks and achieve the same results as before and you can still follow the same survivor until they die. But you cannot play the long game anymore and pressure the entire team until the survivor with an active trap has to go for an unhook and then harass them once or twice on boxes (keep in mind, they won't follow you around for long because the timer is stopped) to get a kill and turn the game in your favor.
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major bias towards said killer.
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Oh no I was just pointing out the flaws in trying to balance anything off of the videos that were posted. These don't really highlight anything but a player that is struggling in the killer role in general due to expression of the way they play.
But thats not to say the player is not free to their opinion with what to change for the pig in general. I am not trying to take their style or that away from them or insult anyone. I hope this is clear now.
For her chase though it needs buffing, I think we can all agree her ambush was in massive need of changes. You literally could only use it on trash pallets that you would have to be on the side of. And then if the survivor was smart, they would just hold W to get away from you to the next one. It was extremely niche in its use.
Her main problem is securing a target and the buff to chase is whats needed to change that. You cant get traps on without you know... chase and down plays. Its very difficult, to go from pallet to pallet to TL to end up on 2 1/2 gens done before you get a trap on against a competent team. You need a way to get the traps on to... actually get the slowdown that they are intended to give but you also need to be able to apply sufficient pressure on the next target.
You also need to pray that traps dont just get immediately removed with RNG as well. Scream interrupt should probably be put on the shelf, its really not a fair way to punish survivors trying to do their traps. Its sort of reminiscent of huntress lullaby effecting them, it's probably not intended.
Traps shouldn't be only slow down on the last generator or last 2 generators, it should have some slow down capability earlier in the match. And not require survivors to make mistakes to make it happen. This is where her chase should be balanced and why it needs to happen. You cant get traps on reliably quick enough, against competent survivors, to have it even begin to do what they are intended to do (slowdown).
Her ambush changes now behaves a bit like billy, obviously with less distance and not a one shot but it covers enough distance so even if the person held W they would struggle to get to another loop in time. You can deny TL's the moment you get sight now instead of having to rely on the survivor making a mistake around them. Granted unlike billy, this actually will take way more input from the player and not so much the killer. Running something like superior anatomy around shack wont be required and you can just run bamboozle and catch with M2 or force the pallet.
You would obviously have to build around this as it would be difficult without workshop grease. You probably could do it, but not as effectively but its a yellow add-on, its sustainable.. And you would just run syringe to make it even better at area denial, or just run combat straps.
Hope this is clear.
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I don’t believe I said this particular brand of tunneling is more efficient than the classic style; I said that tunneling (in any way) is META and Pig players harassing survivors with RBT is a common playstyle in low to mid MMR. Whether I personally believe this is the best strategy or not is irrelevant because what it comes down to is that if it weren’t common she would still be able to see the trap boxes as a standard part of her kit. Evidently the devs see an issue with Pig players harassing survivors with the traps and have nerfed part of her kit as a result of it. Personally, I suspect her kill rate is largely a byproduct of Pig players harassing survivors with RBTs until they die.
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Pig shines at low to mid MMR where killers more commonly harass survivors with the RBTs because that’s easy and it works. I don’t believe people who enjoy or want strategic (as in requiring a lot of game sense, killer insight, or macro-micro skill) gamplay turn to this killer for that. Pig is a noob stomper & solo queue destroyer not unlike Pinhead, Sadako, and Freddy and yes even with her changes she remains good at that. But one thing about the devs is that they’ll try to create the illusion of caring about oppressive playstyles with half-cocked bandaids that don’t fully prevent or block that play style. They basically try to walk the line & so you get a pig who appears ‘nerfed’ in a way but can still do the awful, unfun thing she’s extremely good at doing to solo queue and newbie survivors. Does that make sense?
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I feel like I have failed to explain the actual problem somehow. So I'll repeat the main problem. All of the strategies, that we both agree are pretty unfun and have too little counterplay have not been nerfed in any way. They remain exactly as strong as they were before. For the survivor that is tunneled, it really doesn't matter if they have 2.5 minutes to get rid of the trap or 3 minutes. They can't do that anyway and the timer is paused because the killer is chasing them. The same applies to UW on Pig. It really doesn't matter, if the timer is 2.5 minutes or 3 minutes and the removal of the boxes' auras doesn't matter either because you find the survivor with UW.
Only the more strategic component is affected. So it's not a good change in any way. After all, the less ways there are to play Pig, the more you push them towards the remaining strategies. Meaning, instead of combating the unfun play styles they incentivise them. Do you think that is a good thing? I don't.
hey basically try to walk the line & so you get a pig who appears ‘nerfed’ in a way but can still do the awful, unfun thing she’s extremely good at doing to solo queue and newbie survivors.
This is pretty much exactly what I tried to explain. So instead of the changes they have made, we'd need something that actually addresses her issues. The Pig mains had suggested some changes to do just that. Sadly they weren't applied.
It's kind of weird to me that we're even arguing at this point when it seems that we are of the exact same opinion. There are unhealthy play styles on Pig that should be nerfed. These nerfs however don't achieve that goal. Instead they nerf other play styles that are more skillful, unique and healthy.
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Sure
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Again, the player is me. Thx.
The games, which are more than 2, highlight specific problems of the Pig, as I said multiple times before. I do not struggle with the killer role. This is just an assumption you make after watching two games.
I absolutely agree with the ambush related part. The ambush is a super situational power, that can be very effective in certain scenarios but absolutely useless in others. Sadly, the loops at which the ambush truly shines are way below the amount of loops at which it does nothing.
I also agree with the next part. I do think we can agree on something after all.
Losing the first trap extremely fast, however, can still result in a win, due to 1-3-4-4 being extremely lethal in terms of head pops. The game just gets a lot riskier.
Screaming should go. Thats what I and all the other Pig mains are shouting.
As you said, the buffs are completely addon dependent to do their part. The Pigs ambush remains extremely situational in most situations if not certain addons are in play. Again, something i have been saying since the PTB Feedback.
Nothing you said was new to me. This is stuff Pig mains, including me, have been saying on the PTB. Some of my videos showcase the struggle of Pig if the survivor plays smart and shift w or pre drops. They also show the difference of having the addons and not having the addons.
Again, I know this killer.
Last but not least, because you ignored it, what is wrong with how I use the ambush?
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Im a Pig player. Have you seen me complain about the removal of auras?
Do I like the change? No? Is it super bad? Not by a long shot. You can memorize the locations. I memorized all sports, where the ambush gets stuck mid air. This will not be a problem for me.
Please dont antagonize a whole crowd of people just because of some bad apples.
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I am unsure why the addon requirement is something that is up for contention. All play styles with killers really do rely on addons. Killers dont succeed that well going in blank at higher levels of play. It remains to be seen just how required the grease is for ambush to be worth using or not. A quick look and my testing of it, in my opinion, is no. Others think yes. Its not really anything solid though. Many have taken back their original "nerf to pig" stances/tweets as well, this was before the devs came out saying they are keeping traps at 150s.
The atmosphere for playing in PTB isnt the best for testing out what is viable as there is no MMR matchmaking and people aren't familiar as much with the new map. Coupled with people not really playing the way they would on normal live matches.
Losing the first trap early with her current chase though is the problem. You wont get the other 3-4-4 due to games, like the one's that were listed previously, will result in one trap and thats it. Regardless of how many tries it takes to get off that's just not good enough. You should beable to get on to the next target quickly and another trap, and have ways to close down distance. Hence the buff to ambush.
I would rather keep the critique off the forums as it seems the mods wanted to remove that so asking about it will not get an answer. The short answer is my testing showed otherwise in the addon requirement for ambush, as well as analyzing said PTB published videos showing a similar pattern to what was already said of the two others.
TLDR: Would wait til this hits live to really come to any conclusions.
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From what many other experienced Pig mains, including myself have tested, the ambush still gets shut down by shift w and pre dropping without certain addons.
I do not take my stance back when i say, that if these changes would have went live as they where, the Pig would have been nerfed overall.
The buffs where to the basekit. I do not count addons if I talk about a killer basekit and basekit, the ambush still doesnt cut it.
I agree, that many people on the PTB dont really play serious, which is why I got a lot of crap form the people I played against. However, there where some survivor players that did play serious and from the chases against them, it shows.
In regards to the first trap being a one search: As I said, its risky. Risky for both parties. It can win you the game or lose you the game. Depends on how fast you can get the next downs.
The comment got deleted because you ignored what I said and called my gameplay and me as a player bad because of 2 games in which my performance was not up to your personal standarts. Games that should not focus on winning but one specific aspects alone. The moondash is extremely viable at higher level and can grant hits at loops, where other killers would wish to be able to get a hit.
There are 3 types of the Pigs ambush:
- Normal straight ambush
- Doubleback ambush at loops (fake one side, go the other)
- Moondash (hug objects without invisible ambush hitboxes to go backwards in order to catch survivors off guard and to get maximum distance around the loop)
The third being the most difficult to pull off because of the before mentioned invisible hitboxes one can run into and the rarity of the loops at which it is even possible to pull off.
Im gonna look forward to the changes. I played Pig for over 2000h+ at this point. The only thing stopping me from playing Pig is either her changing too much (i leave dbd) or the game shutting down.
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I hope everyone is aware that Appeal to Authority is a logical fallacy. Being very emotionally attached to a specific killer, or spending an enormous amount of time playing a specific killer, doesn’t mean that person understands that killer better than other people. And it certainly doesn’t mean their opinions should count more than other people’s opinions.
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This killed the fun with this killer, if i want to play stealth there is GF and Myers... Pig is dead for me now...
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No aura's on boxes was enough to kill literally all the fun? Even when a different way of playing her became more viable alongside it?
Never in my life did I think I'd see a Pig player upset that Ambush was buffed, I guess I should adjust my perspective.
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Everyone else: Timer, Ambush and Box auras
Me: Trap setting speed addons basekit ;-)
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The traps were litterly what i found fun with her.
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It's only a fallacy if the authority is irrelevant to the subject being discussed. Disregarding a person's experience and knowledge pertaining to a discussion is equally fallacious.
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The nerf to the timers making them longer is reverted. You can figure out common Jigsaw Box locations and check them yourself.
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Ah, my bad then... ty
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Maybe not, but time and practise leads to expertise and knowledge, and there are things like the Dunning-Kruger effect. Someone who doesn't play the character much is more likely to be ignorant of things beyond the surface level due to a lack of experience, and furthermore be unaware of just how much they don't know. This means they are more likely to make flawed assertions about what is best for the character.
Regardless of experience though, we should all strive to remove our bias as much as possible, support our arguments with evidence, and most importantly be willing to listen to and factor in the thoughts and experiences of others to refine our arguments or even change our opinions entirely... but you should also employ reasonable scrutiny, as without scrutiny we poison the well.
If someone makes a well supported argument, only a fool doesn't listen, even if you don't agree, but if you're someone without much experience, there is more onus on you to do your due diligence and ensure your argument is well informed and well supported with evidence if you want to be taken seriously.
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From what many other experienced Pig mains, including myself have tested, the ambush still gets shut down by shift w and pre dropping without certain addons.The buffs where to the basekit. I do not count addons if I talk about a killer basekit and basekit, the ambush still doesnt cut it.
Yea it remains to be seen, I will be making plenty of footage on it when it gets changed as I completely disagree and think a lot of it is just dogpiling and blindly believing something, like many things in DbD I see. I spent a few matches on the PTB but again, its the PTB. I have seen plenty others walk back their original statements on pigs changes even before the 150s revert announcement.
Will just be reserved/disagreement side until it hits live.
In regards to the first trap being a one search: As I said, its risky. Risky for both parties. It can win you the game or lose you the game. Depends on how fast you can get the next downs.
This is why she needs these changes. Getting the next person is the problem. Traps still function the same as they do on live, but for the less experienced, the update is an issue since they cant see the station auras anymore.
Her main issue with anything outside of trap play/camp was getting to targets and then the next target against competent survivors. You dont even get to play the trap side of things if you cant catch anyone reliably and M1 just doesnt cut it you need more from ambush as it currently is.
There are 3 types of the Pigs ambush:
Even without the update there are ambushes to close out loops and gain distance/corral/zoning but without the update this requires the add-ons syringe/grease. This is a bit more advanced play though.
Another type of ambush is missing intentionally to force strong pallets. Another bit of advanced play and situational if you are running something like enduring/spirit fury, which a lot of pigs do.
Another type of ambush is something all pigs are familiar with, roar faking.
So there are more than 3 types of using ambush. Just need to be a bit more creative and have some more experience is all.
The comment got deleted
Ill let the mods explain how and why comments get deleted if they want to. The point was to not bother continuing it as it was removed already.
Post edited by ChuckingWong on0 -
Happy to help. Just to be perfectly clear: timers are back to normal at 2 minutes and 30 seconds, but Pig cannot see the Jigsaw Boxes' auras anymore, that's still removed.
There is a chance BHVR might change their minds and extend the timers again, they say Pig is still on the watchlist. Unfair if you ask me. They should instead take the other suggestions given and make Jigsaw Box searches not lose progress if interrupted. That counters the scream builds much better than making the timers longer.
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The traps aren't useless, they literally just had the timer change reverted. Is the Aura change really completely ruining the character to the point you can't enjoy playing Pig? What were you using with that information that made it so integral to your playstyle in the first place?
Edit: nvm, didn't see the above comment!!
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I wasn’t saying that anyone’s experience should be disregarded. However, we do have a handful of people on these forums that repeatedly mention they main a specific killer, and repeatedly mention they’ve spent an enormous amount of time playing a specific killer, and are expecting their opinions to matter more because of these facts. And it’s not just about Pig, because this happens for a few other killers too.
When people say stuff like “I can’t believe BHVR didn’t listen to us, because we main this killer, and have spent lots of time with this killer”….. that’s a logical fallacy.
We need to stop misusing the word “listening”. BHVR can listen to what a (very small) handful of Pig mains are saying, and still not actually do what the Pig mains want. “Listening” just means spending time, effort, and thought, to the opinions of someone. BHVR can listen to someone, and still not agree with that person’s opinions.
There are too many people that think a person is only “listening” to someone else if they change their opinions to match to whoever they are “listening” to.
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I mentioned the types of ambush, that can give you a hit with the ambush.
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