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Tunneling at 5 gens
Comments
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I wish I could give this more than a single vote up. Very well put.
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For about half the killers that is realistically the case.
Although, I agree that tunneling needs to be addressed. I'm very much looking forward to the update to DS. We'll see how much it does but at least it should help a little. Killers that don't tunnel mostly won't have to deal with it (at least that's what I hope for) and tunneling killers will have to deal with it. So, there is kind of an incentive not to tunnel (less perks to worry about) and a penalty for doing so.
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Then keep playing like the game being balance with 1st chase costs 3 Gens. Thats benefit survivors.
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I don't really use it haha i don't see enough tunnelling I feel to get enough value out of it. But it was used on me once and opened my eyes to how good it can be
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I don't tunnel or bring regression perks and I win most of my games. this is just a bad excuse. You want to win and have a good time without playing like a sweat and making everyone miserable? Try an undetectable build my favorite build right now is trail, tinkerer, iron maiden and mindbreaker.
if you need regression perks or need to tunnel, that is entirely on you failing to learn to apply full map pressure.
maybe what needs to happen is some lore friendly score based changes over gameplay mechanics, the entity wants survivors to suffer over time and tunneling a survivor out reduces the over all amount of suffering that happens. So killing a survivor before a certain amount of overall hook states reduces the total score similar too how camping can lower your score.
Since most people want to pip up losing pips and bp gain for displeasing the entity may turn killers away from tunneling at 5 gens similar to how BBQ encouraged players to not tunnel for extra bp.
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I dont think they would nerf Blight & Nurse basekit, nerfing addon maximum, which they already do. God Nurse is guarantee lose to play against, but most are find with basekit Blight & Nurse.
The only problem is its not choosing one out of two:
- Should I use strong power, but not able to tunnel
- Or I have ability to tunnel, but have weak power
But rather:
- Should I tunnel using strong power
- Or I tunneling using weak power.
Most killers' powers are fine by their own, but no matter how strong their power are, they would tunnel with that power because its even more effective because there is no down side. We already see alot of tunneling Blight, or even Nurse. Its more leaning to tunneling part rather than killer's power.
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that aint the fault of no one the game in general needs to slow down remove tunneling gives like 20 extra sec of gen time it will fix this issue it's not a players issue it's a game issue ppl need to stop with the tribalism
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What are "5 gens left"? Bad stats again, could be 3 gens on 90%.
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It's well known that Killers check player profiles to see who is the weakest link.
Your argument is my team are at fault for letting a 10hr Meg get gen grabbed and then tunneled?
There is nothing you can do to save them.
When I tunnel I never blame the other survivors for my choice in that.
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Adding 20 seconds of gen time won’t stop tunneling, it’ll just make it easier to perform.
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You don't need to be high level to protect your teammate.
You can just body block the killer and make use of some perks or items to protect them, such as BT, babysitter, FTP+buckle up, background player+flashlight, break out, Saboteur, etc.
Not quite difficult right?
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The excuse of "I'm tunneling the weak survivor" are just an... Excuse
I don't think killer run after the weak one, just the FIRST one he see
That make no sense to say that they want the weaken one out of the game, where the three other gonna be "stronger" ? Technically, if you want to pressure the team, kill the stronger one no? And even with this kind of logic, how can't you know a survivor is strong? Being strong at loop don't say making every skill check perfect on a gen...
Killer tunnel anyone they see first, because it's an easy win, and survivor need to cop with that since nothing gonna be do about that
Light outs demonstrated this point, Killer just tunnel for winning without difficulties, and there's no excuse, no perks involved, no item, ..
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Your saying killers don't go for the weak link?
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Are you serious? You think solo'q Mates are eager to run in and save the day? You're either with a decent swf or you're truly alone. Try it sometime.
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Correct. Its just anther excuse to remove accountability for whoever is playing the killer role. Its alongside 'Viable strat', They brought (insert item/offering), 'Group before them BM'd me.'
Its all BS and just makes the killer feel better about the situation. Human psychology at its finest.
5 -
Don't think so
Personnally, I don't really tunnel, that's not even something I think of
But, When I play survivor, each times, the killer seems to tunnel the first person he found , he can be the weakest or the strongest, doesn't seems to have some importance
I can be myself tunneled, even if the first time we got chase, there's two or three gen who pop up or zero or one gen pop
2 -
Some solutions that were previously offered in different threads were (in summary)
A) Provide a repair speed debuff for each living survivor that is replaced by a repair speed buff for every dead survivor. Tweak the numbers so that the best way (or at least equal to tunneling way) to get a 4K is to get as many survivors on death hook as possible and then start killing. Also, this slows down the early game so that two or three gens aren't lost in the first two minutes and also makes it so that it's not an automatic win for the Killer if a survivor is lost while there are more than 2 gens left up.; or
B) Have the survivors share hook states so nobody dies until there have been 9 hooks. This keeps the tunneled survivor in the game for longer and may give more motivation to the player's teammates to help save them; or
C) Base MMR off of hooks where 0 to 4 hooks means MMR goes down, 5 to 8 hooks means it stays the same, and 9 to 12 hooks is an MMR increase. Kills only is really simplistic and adds to the desire to tunnel so people can feel they're higher MMR. If MMR were also visible it would add to psychological pressure to spread hooks as many people would want to brag about their MMR and they couldn't if it went down because they tunneled. As well, content creators couldn't be 'I'm top MMR!' unless they could show it. I do think that's why there were more hooks spread around in the Emblem days as you needed multiple hooks to increase, matches were lopsided more often (the con being they were less fair, the pro being off meta builds and tactics were more viable), and people could show they were Rank One.
There are potential solutions out there. I think BHVR should test something to see if it would work as it is a major issue for player enjoyment.
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"Apply map pressure as a basic m1" starts to fall short. Most killers just don't have good kits. Some can have decent map pressure but fall horribly on chase potential and vice versa. I do not feel like playing pinhead just because of poor map and character design.
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Because tunneling can be so effective for killers it's important that survivors learn how to play around it by using anti-tunnel perks and taking hits and aggro from the killer for other players, too many survivors don't bother to use situational awareness, they need to be proactive and think about who is the next person on the team who needs to take hits or take a hook state so the gens get done, otherwise they need to learn to try to deny the killer hooks. Hoping the devs completely rework the game to take tunneling out of the game is not going to happen.
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Anything between 7gens at 0% and 7gens at 99% to be precise. It can also take about 90 seconds from trial start to turn a 5 into anything between 4 and 1. "At 5 gens" is such a vague point of reference to judge something by.
Strangely being at 0 hooks doesnt stop survivors from jumping onto the first gen they see and do only that generator. Don't they know good players should spread their efforts on atleast 4 objectives?
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First, I'll write down the important things so that I don't forget them. Hooked survivor is safe while hanging on the hook. This is because he only suddenly changes after 60 seconds, and by simply trading the hook just before that, his survival time will be greatly extended even if the survivor who escapes from the hook is tunneled.
And sometimes it's better to rescue the hooked survivor once the killer is a little further away. This is because the killer digs a tunnel because he wants to prevent the generator from completing as much as possible, and there are times when he would rather destroy a generator that is about to complete than dig a tunnel. If you want to acquire the ability to guess what the killer is doing now, you should actually play the killer, but even if you don't, you can still acquire some knowledge by watching videos of the killer playing.
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The "tunneled out at five gens is the fault of the surv team" mentality is entirely an veteran and/or upper MMR point of view.
Simple fact is most of the survs out there are not too knowledgeable about the game. And with around half of all survs solos the notion of betting on timely cooperation & coordination is kinda absurd.
We're talking about casual gameplay vs.efficient gameplay, where most players are casuals. DBD has an usually high learning curve, and it takes hundreds of hours to no longer suck. Thousands of hours to pick up most of the game.
Most players will not be around long enough to learn as much as they really need. Not with lobby shopping and MMR problems from backfilling.
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So that's why nurse and blight needs nerf as they're not planned to do that. Both are planned to chase multiple survivors. With weak killers tunneling is balanced maybe even hard.
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all I am reading here is more excuses. Since naughty bears release trapper has been my #1 played killer. You don't see me making excuses like everyone else around here. You don't need to tunnel to win even as an m1 killer. You just need better game awareness.
No matter how bad your m1 killer kit is, it will never be worse than the randoms in soloq stinking up 90% of matches. But keep lying to yourself and resorting to tunneling instead of improving in areas where you're weak so you do not need to tunnel anymore.
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Agreed. Plus survivors have 30+ killers to learn to counter. All different in chase with different powers or secondary objectives. That's on top of learning tiles, looping, looking behind you in chase etc. Learning to play survivor isn't some overnight thing.
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that's why io said remove tunneling and then add 20 sec
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hell you can even make it that if you hook the same guy 2 times in a row it dosent give a hook stage
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I Both agree and disagree.
it is really fuxking annoying when you've run the killer around the map 3 times and the other 3 survivors are standing around doing nothing, but sometimes it's bit as simple as "pop 3 gens". They don't pop that easily.
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Funny you say that because usually playing efficiently (tunneling) is unanimously agreed upon to be being good at a game. But yeah you must get the horrible solo q players judging by how you play TRAPPER. Current surv meta just requires no brain to run to pallet and pre drop with most loops having good visibility of the killer.
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its a mixed bag, one game I can play against sweaty swfs the next I can play against utter potatoes. You can tell when you replaced a killer who backed out which is a problem of its own. Match Making fails a lot which is another problem all together.
A good player can make any killer work, blaming the killer you play as is just another way to pretend you didn't just play bad. Obviously Trapper isn't on Blight or Nurse's level.
I play Trapper personally to challenge my self because after patch 6.1.0 the game became a cake walk for the killer role. I don't want to play games where I win and all 5 gens are still up. If I play Huntress, Wraith, Wesker or Nemy that is exactly what happens most games unless it is a Huntress on Hawkins type of situation.
If you need to tunnel someone out its because you haven't yourself up through out the game properly, you're focusing on one survivor instead of pushing other survivors off gens. Which with 3 other survivors you're letting atleast 2 gens get done unchecked in the process. You only NEED to tunnel if you want to shut your brain off the same way you're saying survivors do.
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Yeah but if you're winning at 5 gens as TRAPPER or at anything above 2 gens left... the survivors made some serious mistakes. The game isn't hard to learn, the only hard part is keeping up with survivors that spread apart which is the best way to play. There's a reason you only see only like 8 of the 30+ killers played in community run tournaments.
Also you can only push people off gens for so long until they realize you won't commit to chase so they'll only run out of LOS then back. You can't physically pressure all 7 gens at the start of the game as most killers.
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You dont need to pressure all 7 gens? now I know you're not playing with your brain. I also never said you don't commit to chases either. Its like you don't understand which chases to take and which ones not too which is why you say you need to resort to tunneling. Which is my point. I also said I play trapper because I DO NOT WANT to win at 5 gens. If I were winning at 5 gens with trapper consistently I would just play a different game. Destroying teams with zero push back is not fun nor will it ever be fun.
Also you can't really compare tournaments to normal game play. tournaments have self imposed rules which change things entirely. Tournament players are capable of handle being tunneled out, where in a pub match not every survivor can loop. You can't control who you match with. You could have a 10k andy bring in their friend who doesn't even have an hour to their name. Tournaments never see that skill range diversity. Public matches on the other hand do.
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Pretty hard to pick and choose chases when people run to some ridiculous main building every chase or some maps are just generous in their generation (basically every reworked year 7 map) that only gets worse with perks stacked on top of it. Its just objectively the smart play to tunnel someone out because a 3v1 is WAY more manageable than a 4v1 even with the average player being bad because the skill floor of survivor is so low atm that you can be bad and still get gens done.
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The problem is that any killer can cheese a win by tunneling. Nurse and Blight are the least of any survivor’s worries these days.
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In my opinion, I feel that BHVR making a clear win condition kills and escapes is also a detriment.
It elevates the need for both sides to win at all costs. For killers I feel it would be more of a win to go for hooks. For survivors perhaps teamwork or helping out in chases, gens etc..
I am not sure rhe best way to make it balanced and fair in the current state of the game. Just I think having the over all win condition being kills and escapes is a detriment to the game.
I feel like BHVR should incentive chases and hooks more to combat tunneling.
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This post is proof that you do not know which chases to take and when.
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I sometimes wonder if killers tunnel their way to consistent 4K's, only to eventually end up playing against nothing but sweaty, high level SWF players, then proceed to get ripped apart and then come to the forums to complain that their matches are too hard.
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This is exactly what happens. Then they take it out on survivors who have nothing to do with the situation they put themselves into. Its a vicious cycle, that is entirely self induced.
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If that's the case then why do killers complain about gen rushing lol.
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Same reason why survivors complain about tunneling.
Neither side likes having the game end before they've completed their objective.
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Devs could make tunneling a bannable offense, they could add more harsh penalties. Even adding tunneling to the list of repeatable offenses isn't an impossible task.
They haven't. That should say a lot about their stance on it.
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Was the last batch of being spoon fed not good enough? Let’s count, basekit bt, basekit haste after unhooked, anti facecamping, basekit bt working with deliverance, basekit bt working with deliverance in end game, basekit bt working in end game, basekit bt working from a 4%, hook grabs not working anymore… ect ect ect. what’s next in store to be basekit for the survivor wish lists?
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So why tell survivors to rush gens if you don't like it think that went over your head. Your advocating to gen rush but survivors don't advocate to tunnel.
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I have never seen a comment from survivor telling the killer to tunnel to stop gen rushing but I see killers telling survivors to gen rush to counter tunneling like you just did. The main reason for that is that the killer still gets gameplay even during gen rush the opposite isn't the same for survivor as the killer finds the weakest survivor tunneling them out and either making them quit the game or never gain any experience since its so easy to do. Is it optimal yes does it kill the game also yes thats why it needs to be fixed.
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Idk why you are acting like I'm personally complaining about gen rushing.
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Because I've seen on other posts you say something about it.
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I've stated that survivors don't spread out progress on gens so there's no reason to expect killers to spread out hook states. Not really sure where you get "complaining about gen rushing" from that.
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So if they're taking hits and they Sabo the hooks, they can not be doing gens.......why is it hard to not chase the person who just got unhooked?
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This is natural since they are competing seriously with each other. And we really need to talk about balance when we are willing to compete with each other. Therefore, tunnels and camps are both tactics, and even if they are weak on their own, they must be used in the fight to the top. This is because the survivor speeds up the gen due to its existence, and when the killer rushes in response, the hook area becomes thin.
Everything is causal, so missing any of them would be foolish in a competitive situation. And in reality, tunnels and camps are often only deterrents, and they rarely actually suppress survivors, at least among advanced players.
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We can continue this topic as long as we remain constructive. We do not have to agree with each other, but the conversation must remain in line with our Forum Rules. Thank you!
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