DS does Not need a Buff
DS does not need a buff, it shouldn’t be a sure 100% guaranteed escape from a tunnel like it used to be. With its current version, strategic approaches is required to get value, like the location of your down and pick up, is it somewhere you can keep prolonging your next down after you proc DS? Taking your killer to a safe zone where after you DS stun them you can make it to a safe/god pallet. It shouldn’t be a free get out of jail ticket specially when Off the Record is already a thing, basekit BT along with its haste (a pain for 110% killers), Anti face camping ect… survivors have been spoon fed one too many times to deserve DS back to or close to its former glory, which was obviously problematic without say. Making it such a threat where killers are scared to pick survivors up again, counting the 60 seconds like before (which I still see people do) is just silly and makes killers look weak.
I would like to compare DS to Eruption, but my point has been made and you’re free to stop reading here. When Eruption was nerfed into the ground, completely changing it’s purpose which was to apply the very rare incapacitation effect that now is only applicable by Victor, killers have accepted the perk is rendered useless and moved on. Now imagine the last DS nerf changed the perk in a fashion similarly to Eruption, “60 seconds after you’re unhooked, if the killer picks you up hit this skill check and now your teammates can see the killer’s aura as they’re carrying you to the hook.” … that’ll be understandably a complete joke right?
I understand this post has no persuasion to the Devs decision, the buff is inevitably coming. I’m using discussions more as a way to get people talking and to express my thoughts and prayers. Good day.
Comments
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Calling the prior DS a 100% escape is an exaggeration. If BHVR decides to bump the time to 5s again I wouldn't have a problem with it. Frankly 3s is not enough to justify a perk slot.
DS was the biggest BS perk back in the day. For you to complain about it now cheapens the hell we had to go through.
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....Dont think it ever guaranteed an escape from being tunneled. Theres also some holes to your arguments such as teammates burning everything around before you can even use DS (theres more but we're tired). Long as it disables from certain actions and endgame (aka: can't be easily weaponized) a small buff wouldn't hurt, especially with the rampancy of tunneling. A comparison to erruption kinda falls abit flat as well as 1 slows down a specific tactic and even before at its worst it still just slowed while the other stopped all forward progress if it landed. And no...pretty sure eruption is still used on occasion, had a huntress use it to pretty good effect atleast.
Regardless it all depends on how it gets "buffed" (to our knowledge no one knows). Could be ok, could be overkill, could end up being overall nerfed somehow.
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that’s why it’s important for the survivor to take mental notes on where their teammates have previously took chase, and even with your argument, their teammate’s faults does not translate to sympathy for the DS user, like I said, new version means more thoughts put into the perk’s usage. And as for your huntress argument, ya eruption is now very niche and useful for certain killers with certain game plans and builds, unlike its predecessor which was universally useful across all killers, kinda like how DS is useful across all survivors.
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DS is one of the most killer-controlled perks in the game. You, and you alone, determine whether it has value or not. Don't want it to work? Don't tunnel. Done.
But that's something you have trouble with, it seems, considering your thread on OTR.
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DS does not need a buff,
Okay, i am all ears.
it shouldn’t be a sure 100% guaranteed escape from a tunnel
And i am out.
In all seriousness, DS is a complicated perk which has more a bandaid effect then most other perks because of problematic game design. The three must unfun strategies, slugging, camping and especially tunneling have not been adressed that much (besides camping to some degree) so Unbreakable, DS and Reassurance will always be disliked by killers. Their effect is not really super powerful, because it is completly avoidable by the killer.
Defending those strategies is like defending bad game design. I can not imagine someone actually "like" tunneling, as a killer of course. But some killer think it is the only way to have success in their games.
We / They should rather find solutions for overall better game design so those 3 strategies dont have to much power, and spreading hooks, which is clearly the most fun wayto play the game for both sides is the best and most successful way to play DBD.
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Yeah, I can definitely see how a 3 seconds stun that also has the survivor stagger is enough to combat tunneling. I mean, nobody would dare tunnel a survivor out of fear of the 3 seconds DS. Oh, wait...
We already a 5 seconds DS before and it was mostly fine. As long as it deactivates in end game (and maybe disables flashlights and flashbangs for as long as it's active) it should be fine. In fact, I doubt it wouldn't even be enough. Because we'd need to have every survivor run it again or the threat of DS would not be enough to stop tunneling before it happens. And if I'm already through the DS, then I might as well take advantage and tunnel that guy out.
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DS is literally one of the only perks that you, as a Killer, directly control. If you don't tunnel, they don't proc it.
Likewise, DS is pitiful right now. It is not worth a slot and tunneling is at an all-time high. Personally, I don't want them to buff DS and band-aid fix tunneling AGAIN. I'd rather them adjust the base-game to completely kill off tunneling by making it inefficient.
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can you all remind me again how i control whether the ds user will block my way or not please?
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I mean, you can still control if you pick them up or not. If they decide to bodyblock and you down them, you also have map pressure - one less person on a Gen. And potentially another one who needs to pick them up.
But the thing is, 3 second-DS does not change that at all. It just makes the perk too bad to actually do something, but this seems to be fine. So your point is that you want DS to be useless and not the unhooked Survivor to not bodyblock you.
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Tell me you have to tunnel to win without telling me you have to tunnel to win.
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sure if they block your way they get downed. doesn't mean you have to pick them up... unbreakable well you get a bunch of time of them not doing anything but mending on the ground.
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DS definitely needs a buff, return it to 5 seconds and that is all it needs.
As it currently is, it is essentially useless and a wasted perk slot against Billy, Nurse or Blight and even M1 killers if you are not fortunate enough to get use next to a pallet or window so you can at least gain distance.
Tunnelling needs to be punished more not less
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block killer's path -> run after you make sure the other person made enough distance -> get in a locker.
what does the killer do here?
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Unlike OTR, survivor can't get guaranteed value from bodyblock. Because simply killer can get them down and leave them on ground. But OTR is giving you 80 seconds duration for block killer and killer can't get you down unless they decide to chase you.
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Ah, now we add Lockers to that as well.
I mean, at this point the Killer can ignore the Survivor. Or just push through DS. Even if it would be 5 seconds, Killers will probably do that since tunneling is way too good anyway, even if they get stunned for 5 seconds.
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The last sentence you wrote is what I disagree with heavily. Why? Because it’s mean? News flash we are playing the role of the killer we’re not playing Mother Teresa simulator
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DS back to 5 seconds would not do much. 5 second-DS kept tunneling in place a few years ago, but since then Killers learned that tunneling is way better than going for fresh chases. And 2 extra seconds would not change that, it is still way better to tunnel out the unhooked Survivor instead of going for another Survivor, who might even be healthy.
Let alone that they would only need to eat 1 DS anyway.
So while I dont think that they will add more to DS than a slight increase of stun duration (and I doubt it will be back to 5 seconds, will go up to 4 I guess), this would not really help anything.
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I have to tunnel to win. There! I love it, I thrive in it. And I don’t want that right taken away from me because survivors constant yearn to be spoon fed basekit mechanics to make their lives easier. There’s already so much going on for survivors with these back to back basekit this basekit that updates. You’ll live.
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OTR provides you exactly 0 value against a tunneling Killer.
I got tunneled yesterday by a Spirit. She hit me in the perfect second after the Unhook and my endurance was gone instantly. So even if I would have had Off the Record, I would have had like 1 second of Endurance, at best. (Which is the big flaw of modern "Anti-Tunnel" (because you can hardly call them that...) measurements - they all resolve around the same status effect and can all be removed by just hitting the Survivor once)
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Why not? Why is tunneling so demonized. It’s a valid strategy and survivors already got spoon fed back to back basekit mechanics to limit a killer’s choices and free will. Destigmatize tunneling.
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And yet Killer is in the best and easiest state ever. Someone has to wonder how bad Survivor would be if they would have not implemented something like Basekit-Endurance.
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That's why OTR is perfect perk for bodyblock when killer just want to chase someone else but terrible perk when killer actually tunnel.
Hopefully BHVR will buff DS for good, so op and other killers will tunnel less.
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Then tunnel, if it's so dear to you.
Just don't complain that if you do literally everything wrong in regards to DS, DS is going to punish you for it.
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How do you run off to get into a locker when you're downed?
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Running Unbreakable + Boil Over and going down in a part of the map that makes you unhookable is a valid strategy. That doesn't make it healthy for the game.
Tunneling is stigmatized for the same reason that chaining Head On stuns and running For the People + Buckle Up is. It's miserable to play against.
At the end of the day, your personal enjoyment doesn't matter as much as the game's health.
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Yeah, ok, this is true. Cannot really argue with that.
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I often get good value out of DS. Unlike old DS, I now die near pallets by making a 'bad play' (I try to make it look convincing) and then use it. And I like to use DS + DH, rather than OTR. So I feel pretty safe when getting tunneld.
But saying that, it's definitely AWFUL vs Spirit + Nurse. And if you can't get near a pallet or good window, it's bad vs blight too.
Since it's less popular than it used to be, I realize people don't expect me to actually have DS, so I can usually comfortably get downed near the 60s mark.
So although I'm mostly fine with DS as it is, a little buff wouldn't hurt (deactivate killer power for X seconds, or 5s stun). I think making it work twice would probably be too good.
Edit: Side note: Having the killer pick you up facing away from the direction you want to run to when using DS is a clever play, and wastes a second, it reduces so much distance, and so yeah, a 5s stun would be welcome.
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No but what you are playing is a game that involves four other humans, all who should be able to have a fun experience that isn't ruined because someone wants an easy match by hard tunnelling them out of the game.
It is a complete lack of empathy and consideration for others to continually tunnel what are often inexperienced casual players. It is also very unhealthy for DBD as people who continually are subjected to this will ultimately end up leaving the game if they consistently have a negative experience.
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I agree. Empathy may be a survivor perk in-game, but some people should try and unlock it irl
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I disagree, at least for players who have some level of competency with looping.
Sure if someone is an inexperienced weak player, DS is not going to do much to help them. But if a few more seconds is the difference between making it to a loop/pallet/window then it could add a lot more time to a chase for a killer, which is a big deterrent to tunnelling imo. Add OTR or DH to the picture and it makes tunnelling very unappealing
I really want to see tunnelling made incredibly difficult in DBD, I feel it hurts the game long term
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That begs the question - do you really think it is justified to put 3 (!!) Perk-Slots to have a moderate chance against a tunneling Killer? It is not like using OTR, DH and DS will stop the Killer from tunneling, it just makes it harder. Plus, you only have one DS, so for the second Unhook you have OTR and DH, which are negated by just a single hit.
This is using multiple bandaids for something which should not require bandaids at all.
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True but I guess DBD is bandaid stacked upon bandaid to compensate for inherent imbalances in asymmetrical games along with the problems so many perks introduce to complicate things.
I am up for any solutions to the hard tunnelling issue, though I think increasing the DS stun to 5 seconds is an easy band aid in the meantime
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If you're not willing to extend any empathy towards other people, why do you expect people to care about how you feel? The easiest way to ensure that people don't care about you or your feelings is to demonstrate that you have absolutely no interest in their wellbeing.
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"My god given birth right is to tunnel." What a statement.
My god given birth right is to tell you off and do everything in my power to stop you from ruining the game of others. We will double our effort, thanks for the motivation boost.
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"God given birth right to tunnel"
That has got to be one of the Forum statements of all time.
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And this is why bandaiding issues with perks and iffy workarounds to those perks is not the correct approach. It's a fundamental problem within the game itself.
Yeeting out a surv as quickly as possible has always been the best way to win. However it feels so horrible to be the focused hard tunneled surv. Older versions of DS very much deterred killers from doing so, but when made into offense instead of defense it felt so bad as killer to get hit with.
We were perking around issues and at the same time actively trying to maneuver around those perks, all in ways that made the opposite role feel terrible while it happens. I agree with @Pulsar direct tunneling needs to be made not worth it, but still give killers some agency to, um.... kill survs. But I confess I don't know the solution taking in to account the entire playerbase.
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At this point he’s just throwing anything at the wall in the hopes something sticks.
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I would go even further and make ds stun 10s with a 60s or even more until it deactivates. Would end pretty quickly the current tunneling meta that just makes all solo q matches unsuferable
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While I do think current DS is still actually very good and people underrate it tremendously, I wouldn't mind if it was returned to 5 seconds as long as I never see it if I'm not intentionally trying to tunnel and should not be able to be used aggressively like before. Old version would hit you ALL the time when not tunneling and survivors would try and force it on you. Its perimeters for deactivating need to be very soft to where basically touching anything that's not a window or pallet turns it off and if I down another survivor I think it should deactivate as well.
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When will there be perks that promotes and rewards tunneling to balance things out?
There was:
But Dying Light here was changed because tunneling should not be encouraged, as it is unfun for both sides involved.
In the current state of the game, tunneling is out of control. It is extremely important for DS to get buffed, so we can at least put an end to the tunneling wave. It won't fix the problem entirely, but it will help.
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I can get behind the down the other survivor and lose it part, but however I don't think it should go away simply by interacting with something because then you may as well not even have DS at all , there are alot of times even though its not smart gameplay the killer drops chase completely to make their way back after a unhook to tunnel, so if it takes them time to come back and a survivor hops on a generator nearby you think they should lose DS for that? Let's be real the only killers that DS can really affect are ones that go out of the way to tunnel at this point in time unlike the origins of where it began, I feel like alot of the hate towards DS is PTSD from the bullshittery of the old days where it was just out of control with how powerful it was.
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"and a survivor hops on a generator nearby you think they should lose DS for that?"
Absolutely 100%. They have to recognize if they think they are safe and want to advance the game objective. If they are touching a generator they are not being tunneled. If you think he could be trying to tunnel you shouldn't be touching a gen and then you are safe.
"Let's be real the only killers that DS can really affect are ones that go out of the way to tunnel at this point in time"
Generally I agree. I think if another person is downed after you've been unhooked you aren't being tunneled. Tunneled does not mean you go on the hook twice in a row, it means he's ignoring everyone else and only targeting you. If someone else gets downed after you've been unhooked then you aren't being tunneled and have "generally speaking" had a fair chance at life again.
Similar to how if you were the last person hooked but I'm looking for anyone and I just happen to run into you again, that's not tunneling. There has to be intent in other words and purposefully ignoring others.
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As a pyramid head main who often torments and then hooks survivors to cage them later and usually gets locker DS’d because the survivor doesn’t wanna get caged and tunneled out faster
yes please disable DS in lockers
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I'd much prefer they make tunnelling less efficient as well, but given that it takes so long to make microscopic changes to things it's unlikely to ever happen.
I get that it doesn't fix much, but a bare minimum 'match hook timer to gen speed' should've been done years ago to make both tunneling and camping less efficient. A 90 second hook state can't be weaponized either, but they haven't done that. (I get that hanging on hook isn't exactly gameplay either, but there's still a bigger problem at play here)
Given that the devs have spent a ton of effort in the past year or so to cut down on killers obsessing over literal furniture (hooked survivors and 3 gens) I feel like they are perfectly happy with tunneling in its current state; simply because the killer is actually chasing a survivor and not obsessing over props with no autonomy. The fact that it's the same survivor repeatedly doesn't even factor into it for them.
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You mean base kit mechanics like brutal strength and stbfl added in 6.1? what have survivors gotten base kit besides bt? Killers dont understand that tunneling makes newer people not want to play which is stopping dbd from growing. The sad part is they dont even need to tunnel every killer main who actually knows how to play killer dosent need to tunnel at 5 gens its just bhvr holding bad killers hands. Serious question are you new to the game and just started playing? If so i can understand why you have the opinion you do.
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mhm, shall we set a scene? Your on hook. While trying to rescue you, your teammates get chased around you and drop things left, right, front and center. Your mental notes are clear, but now what can you do? As we've said theres a few holes we can poke, the least of which is asking how someone will know whats happened across the map without taking a look themselves or other perks.
And again we've said it depends on what this "buff" is. If it just returns to 5 seconds, will that really put less thought into its usage? Seems to us its the same, only its got a slightly better chance of doing whatever your planning (making it to a pallet, window, or just buying time).
Which by that wording means eruption isn't dead. Maybe its our definition but dead to us means "not useful in almost any situations" and while eruption can't pause a survivor for about half a min, it still regresses the gen and as you've said can be used is certain gameplans.
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Yes it needs a buff. Let me ask, as killer do you see ds as a threat when you tunnel? If youre answer is no, then thats why
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It's a shame some of my Killer brethren are so invested in kicking gens and staring at Survivors on hooks.
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You are right but for the wrong reasons.
DS does not need to be buffed because tunneling shouldn't be fixed with a perk that forces all survivors to just run the same perks again. It should be fixed at a systemic level by balancing the game around hooks and chases instead of kills.
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Imma be real man, I never even see DS most games, I don't know how you're playing to proc it a bunch to think it warrants complaints, but I think I can guess. I think DS is pretty fine as, it needs the 5 second stun back but that's about it. So long as people don't start using it uber offensively like back in the old days, I'm cool. I can't imagine the devs will make any massive changes given how much this perk has plagued them over the years, but we'll see.
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