Weaker m1 killers being unfairly affected by the 8 regression limit
I have 3 videos below that's relevant to the discussion.
BHVR's intention for the 8 regression limit is to utilize a number where normal matches should not be affected by the 8 regression limit. It's supposed to essentially prevent killers who just camp 3 gens from the beginning of the match who generally refuse to actually advance the match. They won't chase, won't down, and won't hook unless its at the 3 gen - essentially trying to have the match last as long as possible. While some survivors can 3 gen themselves naturally in a match, this was more targeted at killers who sit at the 3 gens from the very beginning of the match. Accordingly to BHVR, normal matches should pretty much NEVER hit an 8 regression limit. In fact, the number of "rare" regression events is less than 8, but BHVR set it to 8 as a buffer.
However, BHVR had done a critical miscalculation on this concept. The expectation of a "normal" match is that the killer will be naturally flowing throughout the map and not having to focus in any particular area. This essentially means the expectation is that gen regression will be spread throughout the map, so no particular gens are being focused on for defense. The problem with this logic is that there is specifically two situations where the killer MUST focus defense on certain gens and CANNOT defend other gens.
- The weaker M1 killers have no ability to traverse the map in an efficient matter. These killers cannot afford to take the long roadtrips that some of the gens require. Some gens are so extremely far from each other in a far corner, that getting there comes at the cost of a LOT of lack of pressure and free repair times for all survivors. This is even worse when you consider that most survivors leave those far away gens to be the last ones to repair (smart move). Even if the killer took the 500 mile roadtrip to those far gens, those gens might not even be worked on. That's all time of a lack of killer presence and pressure. With the m1 weaker killers, since they cannot afford to take those long road trips to extremely far gens, they NATURALLY are strongly encouraged to stay more in the center of the map where gens are more readily accessible. With this being forced on the weak m1 killers with no map traversal, that "regression should be spread across all the gens" concept from BHVR just isn't realistic. Those m1 killers generally have a much smaller "area of operations" which means the gens being regressed is reduced to just 3 or 4 gens on average. Due to this, m1 killer matches with no map traversal abilities have a MUCH higher chance at hitting the 8 regression limit even if they are NOT camping. Even with chasing, downing, and advancing the killer objectives, the gens that get hit tend to be centralized gens (centralized meaning gens that are in the center of the map - for example the main building at the ski resort). This situation is even worse when survivors are literally all focused on center gens - even less of a reason to ever take a roadtrip to the gens on the edge of the map. If survivors are not touching edge gens, and all survivors are in the center of the map, the killer has no place to be BUT at the center. This essentially causes a situation where weak m1 killers are even WEAKER. At this point, not even regression perks can save them. If the killer is actually getting downs, things like surge will hit these gens and add up the 8 charges super fast.
- Many survivors are dedicating all of their focus on centeralized gens or otherwise are gens close to each other). When survivors are ONLY repairing centralized gens and are not repairing gens on the outer perimeter, then the killer has no reason to be at any gens OTHER than those centralized gen. That means once the killer regresses a center gen then goes off chasing a survivor to hook them, survivors rush in and immediately repair that gen, so once they get back and try to regress the gen again, once they chase another survivor, survivors fly in and begin repairs again. With no gens being repaired anywhere else on the map - and survivors are all in the center - the killer literally has zero reason to be anywhere BUT the center of the map. Other gens are are 0% and aren't being repaired, and survivors aren't anywhere else but in the center. This isn't the killer "camping a 3 gen", this is the killer being forced to remain present in the center. This means that every regression event is entirely forced to be on center gens. This causes the 8 regression limit to hit very fast - ESPECIALLY if a regression perk is brought such as surge or eruption. This is punishing killers for "3 gen camping" when the reality is that the survivors are forcing it on the killer - and if the killer isn't actually camping it and chasing a survivor away and downing them, they are going to obviously lose the gens, there. Those centralized gens get so much survivor attention, the 8 regression limit gets hit fast - the killer can only realistically commit a chase to one survivor ata time which means the other 3 survivors will recover from the 5% within mere seconds. Just to be clear, I'm not talking about a survivor chasing people away then going back to the gen, I'm talking about the killer commiting to a chase and downing a survivor. After they hook the survivor, the other survivors are all at the center, and no non-central gens are being worked on. The only place for the killer to be is right back to the center.
Again, to be clear, BHVR said that hitting the 8 regression limit is EXTREMELY rare and should ONLY affect killers who intend to sit and camp at a 3 gen from the beginning of the match. Those killers don't chase or hook but just park their butts at the gens and not move away from them. However, this simply isn't accurate with the two common scenarios above.
Here are some matches where the killer doesn't camp, leaves the gens often, commits to chases, and hooks - clearly doing the killer objective and advancing the match. However, in all three of these cases, the 8 regression limit was hit. One of the matches lead to a loss because of the inability to regress a key gen, and the other two ended with a win - but even a small mistake could have lead to a killer loss. Again, win or lose, the point is to show that the 8 regression limit should essentially never happen in normal matches isn't accurate, and it's actively making weak m1 killers even weaker.
PLEASE NOTE: the following videos isn't about what could have been done better - there is always a hindsight of 20 20 for both player teams of what could have been done better. Instead, this is to merely show that the 8 limit absolutely IS affecting matches where the killer isnt just guarding gens from the beginning of the match and refusing to comitt to chases - and it's negatively affecting the killers who are already historically the weakest in the game at mid to high mmr (m1 killers with no map traversal).
Some commentary on the issue while the limit is hit at the halfway point of the match. In this match, the survivors entirely focus on the gens in the center of the map and completely ignore gens on the far side of the map. This forced the match to be in a much smaller area. I'm specifically not camping the 3 gen, so the "3 gen" is actually lost early on prior to the 8 regression limit being hit. Despite there literally being no 3 gen situation (since I didn't camp it, it was broken early), the limit still hit.
Match result of a loss due to the inability to regress a key gen in the center
Another 8 regression hit on a centralized gen due to survivors focusing on the gen and disregarding others.
Clearly, the whole "this should never happen in normal matches" is incorrect and is negatively affecting already weak killers. If this is indeed supposed to only hurt 3 gen situations, then it should only come into affect if there's only 3 gens left. Survivors obviously can end up 3 genning themSELVES with this concept - but we already have that anyway right now and still get hit with limits. Either that, or perks that promote the killer to advance the objective by getting downs\hooks should NOT count towards the regression limit since if they are advancing the objective, they clearly aren't just sitting on the gens and never leaving. Things like surge\pop\pr and such shouldn't trigger an event since they all require the killer to actively down\hook survivors instead of just camping gens and never leaving.
One final thing, BHVR is making playing a "fair" killer incredibly difficult for m1 killers. I don't face camp, I try to avoid double hooking, I try to avoid tunneling, I don't just sit and camp at a 3 gen, and that's already making it difficult as-is when I could otherwise just tunnel and get a big leg up. With this, it's making an already frustrating experience (to play "fair" and deal with the toxic survivors that beat you over the head with it) even more frustrating, because now you're also getting entirely locked out of a game mechanic that was implemented to give killers a chance. Every patch, there is less room to play fair and killers are getting more and more compelled to tunnel due to how many restrictions are being applied to them. Now, there was always tunnelers, absolutely - but the killers who prefer to play in a more "fair" way are getting pushed into extinction. All we will have left at some point are the type of killers no one really wants to face. Being "nice" is quickly becoming not an option if you want a chance at winning the match. Instead of constantly punishing killers globally by restricting them more and more, how about giving legitimate incentives to play in a more fair manner? Give killers a positive reinforcement on not tunneling, for example. Reward a mori dynamically in the match for no one getting hooked twice in a row in quick succession, have strong perks that activate with a non tunnel condition, etc...
Thank you for coming to my DED Talk.
EDIT UPDATE:
Here it is from a survivor point of view. This knight was not running any regression perks, but I was able to get him to lose literally HALF of his allotted charges on a center gen within the first THREE minutes of the game. He was not camping the gens, either:
Comments
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I still like to use Surge and it's funny how easy is to block the gen. My record is currently on 4 gens left, but if I used Eruption, I can easily get it on 5 gens left.
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If that is the case, buffs can be considered for those Killers instead of implementing special rules regarding regression event limits. Additionally, there are other perks available, some not even related to regression, that could enhance a Killer's performance in specific situations. I understand that the strategy you employ isn't precisely what this change is meant to counter. However, there's the option to adjust your perks and rebalance your MMR to adapt to the evolving dynamics of the game.
Post edited by Emeal on3 -
You'll have to clarify. You said my strategy that I employ is what the system is designed to stop. The system is designed to stop killers from camping a 3 gen from the beginning of the match and never committing to chases, never hooking, and so on - essentially to draw out the match as long as possible (effectively holding the game hostage). Remember that hour long skull merchant video? It's exactly to counter those situations. In all three of those videos, I'm committing to chases, I'm downing in hooking and advancing the objectives, and I'm never sitting on the gens refusing to leave them. I'll even go out to the far away gens just to check on them. I also don't tunnel, and I don't facecamp. How is that not normal intended gameplay? How on earth is not camping, not tunneling, not facecamping, and not slugging considered gameplay that should be stopped? I think you're vastly misunderstanding what the 8 regression limit was intended to stop. If survivors are only focusing on a single gen and not touching the rest, the killer is naturally going to be forced into a position to either defend it or allow it to get repaired. That's not something killers should get kicked in the teeth over. Now granted, it's lame if the killer sits there then never commits to a chase (and in turn never advances the game due to no hooks), but that's not what qe are talking about here. We are talking about the killers who do commit and advance the match but still get punished for doing so.
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My apologies, I meant " isnt precisely "
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Skull Merchant should be the only killer to have this stupid mechanic tbh
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Ah, I was VERY confused, lol! Thanks for clarifying.
Skull merchant seriously needs some adjustments.
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However, there's the option to adjust your perks and rebalance your MMR to adapt to the evolving dynamics of the game.
Interesting, I thought this feature was not supposed to affect general gameplay. Weird we have to change our builds and rebalance MMR.
When feature changes whole meta, it affects general gameplay, so I would say they failed hard in this aspect.
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No, the update specifically says excessively long matches. 3gen is just a particular issue in the group of excessively long matches.
What you are thinking of is probably the second paragraph which says;
A Moderator can comment on if the understanding is in error, but Im pretty confident in it.
So Nobody is saying you 'strong HAVE' to change your perks and strategy. it just means you are now affected by the new system.
I never play with more than 1 generator stoppage or regression perk anyway, I am in the unaffected majority.
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One of my biggest problems is that despite my matches being 10-15 minutes on average, I still hit the 8 limit. This is not considered excessively long of a match time, and yet the mechanic kicks in on a regular basis. Again, this is normally happening when survivors are ONLY focusing on center gens. Why is this system designed to punish killers aiming for hour long matches capable of being entirely controlled by survivors and allowing it to punish any killer they want?
If their goal was to end long matches, they only needed to reduce the max match time to 30 minutes or something.
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Simple explanation; You are a Killer, not a Gen-staller.
Advanced explanation; It aligns with game design principles, balance considerations, and the common enjoyment of players.
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As you can clearly see in my videos, I'm actively chasing and downing survivors. I'll even chase at the cost of losing gens. As for your gen stalling comment, there are perks literally designed to gen stall. Gen stalling is one of the tools built into the game by the designers and is absolutely a legimate part of playing the killer to reach their ultimate goal. "Gen stalling bad" is a very weak hill to die on.
The devs clearly stated that this mechanic will not affect normal gameplay. I'm merely pointing out that they were incorrect due to forgetting about how they designed most m1 killers to not be capable of spreading pressure mapwide like they expect "normal gameplay" to occur. This mechanic unfairly punishes already weak killers. The intention was to stop hour long matches, not to kick weak killers in the gut on normal matches. This isn't "common enjoyment" as you claim, it's making an already frustrating killer experience even more frustrating. If all you want to ever play against is nurse, blight, and skull merchant, then this is the fast track way to do it.
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It all depends on whether your games align with what the developers consider 'normal.' From my perspective, it seems like you're having a challenging experience due to the impact of Surge and Pop Goes the Weasel.
None of your three videos seems excessively unfair either, You even win most of them.
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The point isn't really losing or winning (although the sheer fact that the mechanic can cause a loss by itself despite not 3-genning and chasing/hooking Survivors should be a red flag that the mechanic still needs some work, regardless if it's common or not) it's the fact that it does affect normal matches, more so for Killers that already struggled before. Killers now need to count their regression events because they are vital later in the game when there's only one or two gens left and having gen(s) past the halfway point is very dangerous and forces the Killer on the defensive despite not intending to stall the game.
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the mechanic is not so much of 3 gen mechanic as much as it is a anti-gen camping mechanic. 3 gen most common way to gen camp. You can gen camp at 5 gens by kicking same gen over and over and if survivor are silly enough to keep contesting you over spreading out and doing gens then you'll get 8 regression event for gen camping. that is was case of game 2 & game 1. you can milk a lot of hook-states but eventually system allows survivor to win the gen.
in game 3, there 1 gen remaining so 3 gen. the mechanic works as intended. the perk delayed the game in accordance to their balance and then eventually survivor breaks through due to anti-gen camping mechanic to prevent long match extension.
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That could be correct, except the logical conclusion is that those games were not supposed to be normal games according to the new rules and thus, yes The Killer can lose a game if they focus on stalling more than killing. If you wanna convince me that the system is excessively unfair, you have to show me that. But you cant convince me of the normalcy of your games by say alone, that part would be on bHVR's table anyway.
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The mechanic is literally to affect killers who camp from the very beginning of the match. The devs stated themselves here on the forums that it isn't supposed to affect matches where the survivors end up 3 genning themselves (I believe it was mandy?) It's only to affect killers who specifically camp a 3 gen from the very beginning of the match...so no, it absolutely is NOT working as intended. I absolutely did not just sit there the whole match refusing to leave those 3 gens and refuse to chase and hook survivors as you so claim.
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not necessarily. the mechanic is there to disincentive gen camping. 3 gen is form of gen camping. the mechanic trigger in game 1 and game 3 because of gen camping. in game 2, it triggers in a 3 gen scenario
If your play-style was just picking a gen and camping it the entire match regardless if it a gen 3 or some a gen in the middle, the mechanic will affect you. you won in game 1 and game 3. You lost in game 2 because last gen that you camped was 3 gen.
If a killer is affected by the mechanic and they're losing entirely because of the mechanic, chances are that killer is too weak and needs buffs to not rely on gen-camping.
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God finally a complete and concise post in the feedback thread about the EXACT thing I've been saying for weeks now.
The worst thing is that it's not even just that it makes weaker/M1 Killers even more stressful to play, it's the fact that the "Anti-3-gen system", since it's active the whole trial, essentially also kills every non-regression kick perks (Nowhere to Hide, Surveillance, Dragon's Grip, Trail of Torment, soon Unforeseen etc.) since trying to get perk value automatically means losing 1 of 8 regression events for the chance to get value. The moment a Killer reaches the MMR where Survivors starts to know what they are doing, those perks become more of a risk than a help since they simply offer too little.
Ever since 7.5.0, I'm not sure I've been in more than 3 Survivor games in a row without at least one of them facing a Killer running Pain Res, Grim Embrace, Pop and something else (usually DMS) and having one person get tunneled at 4-5 gens. Tunneling is in a horrible state and it's almost better to prepare to get tunneled rather than just hope it doesn't happen. Both sides have been affected negatively by this, the only ones who don't really care about it are god-tier Survivors that can deal with tunneling and S-tier Killers that didn't need nor used regression much to begin with.
Simply making the 3-gen countermeasure only kick-in at 1 gen remaining would make most of those issues irrelevant.
Please BHVR listen to people saying and showing that it IS affecting normal matches, especially when playing weaker/slower/M1 Killers that already struggle more when climbing the MMR ladder. The system isn't worthless, the idea is good, but it's currently not an Anti-3-gen system, it's currently an anti-regression system and it shouldn't be.
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Apparently my message was duplicated? First one didn't register so I wrote another then both popped up, I can't delete posts so this was an accidental near-copy of the previous post.
Post edited by Skillfulstone on0 -
It's hit me a couple times with surge. Pretty weird to see it pop up and be surprised because I hardly remember kicking a particular gen at all.
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Nowhere did I complain about kills. I'm saying their mechanic is not working as intended, and I'm providing evidence to support it. This has 0% to do with kills. Not to mention if you watch my matches, I almost always give last hatch. I couldn't care less about a 4k.
Post edited by RpTheHotrod on6 -
the update specifically says excessively long matches
If I am able to trigger that feature easily on 4 gens left, then that's not excessively long match.
you 'strong HAVE' to change your perks and strategy. it just means you are now affected by the new system
It's weird to say affected instead of punished...
Just saying I don't want to see crying about killers using pop/pain res. This feature is direct reason for this, when most alternatives are just trash, because of it.
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If I am able to trigger that feature easily on 4 gens left, then that's not excessively long match.
Could also be another problem, like if you pick the right build, you can spam that gen so hard in a short time. Outliers.
Just saying I don't want to see crying about killers using pop/pain res. This feature is direct reason for this, when most alternatives are just trash, because of it.
Use whatever you want my friend, I wont berate you for your build. You go have fun and dont pay mind to those who berate you-
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This is happening fairly often with simply using surge alone as a regression perk. It's even worst with something like eruption. That's not a build, that's a single perk in an already limited amount of available regression perks. This isn't people stacking 4 regression perks, as my videos clearly show. Heck, the silent hill map video shows one locking up entirely due to kicks since survivors were focusing that gen constantly. That's not a killer created problem, that's the survivors creating the problem and forcing it on the killer. "Well, don't kick the gen!" isn't a valid response to that issue. You can't ask the killer yo go sit afk in a corner and let gens get worked on.
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So you wanna nerf or buff Surge?
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Completely unrelated topic. We are talking about how matches that are NOT killers just camping a 3 gen all match refusing to advance the objective and in turn creating very long matches are absolutely being affected by this mechanic which BHVR said would not happen. It clearly is, and it needs to be looked into.
Not sure why you brought surge up. As I mentioned in the school video, surge wasn't even used. It's happening simply with kicks, as well.
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Its not unrelated, you are saying your use of Surge is making you smash into the regression event limit.
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And I said even using kicks alone without surge does. What's your point?
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Already responded to that point.
if its unfair, show me the unfair.
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Totally agree that the anti-3gen mechanism should only take effect when there are only 3gens left.
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Standard kicking shouldn't affect the regression limit at all since it rewards Survivors for having the killer kick gens. That 5% is nothing when survivors need to be on the gen for 3 seconds to counter it.
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There's basically no reason to play 75% of the killer roster. Shame, they REALLY need a buff.
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Looks like more of an issue with Surge and Eruption than the system. Easiest way to fix that would be just to buff those two perks to be a little more impactful cause 8% and 10% is just not good enough to be wasting tokens on.
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Well, new dev update dropped and not one word on fixing the Anti-3-gen system to make it what it is supposed to do.
Here's to hoping we are listened to for a hotfix or another update soon.
Until then, let's keep seeing Pain Res, Pop, Grim Embrace and DMS on the same handful of Killers alongside someone getting tunnelled at 5 gens ridiculously often.
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I am failing to understand the point of all of this.
Never seen a killer hit the 8 gen regression limit nor did I, this is just a Surge problem ,which leads to more gen exploding at the same time, and only 8% so this leads to them not regressing much, forcing you to kick them all the time (which you did).
The mechanic is simply a band-aid for poor map design and generator spawning, and if you add to this the fact that the size of the maps has decreased over time, it is much easier to run into such a situation. Activating it when you are just at the end would be useless, precisely because it is too late.
In the only game you lost (and whose ending you cut out for some reason) you stayed the whole time in the central area of the map, in the other 2 I don't understand the problem, you won and you were constantly complaining like 'oh no another regression', as if this one was activated without sending down the survivors and so you were playing your game well.
If I were you I would try buffering my hands instead since this percentage that you have fished out is a symptom of a problem that only you have.
Post edited by Gabe_Soma on2 -
By making the mechanic only trigger at the end it would make it actually do what it's meant to do: remove endless 3-gen matches without affecting normal gameplay.
And it's not just a Surge problem, actually reaching 8 kicks before the last gen is not common, it's the fact that all regression perks except Pop and Pain Res simply offer too little for being a limited ressource, killing perk variety.
It also makes non-regression kick perks (Nowhere to Hide, Surveillance, Machine Learning, Dragon's Grip, Trail of Torment, Unforeseen soon etc.) a risk to bring since they aren't meant to regress gens (5% is nothing) but still take away a regression event. At a higher level it's simply not worth the risk for so little reward. Reducing perk variety and viability further.
If the last gen isn't part of a 3-gen then limit or not, the Killer likely loses. However tight matches that end in a 3-gen that the Killer didn't intend to do will often put the Killer in a bad spot anyway if they dared kick/regress one of those gens 3-5 times (something easily doable if Survivors keep divebombing a gen and the Killer doesn't feel like not kicking the gen in-between chases for a tiny bit of time) during the game. Even though the Survivors put themselves in that situation, the Killer essentially lost because thry can't afford to patrol or chase since that gen will be impossible to regress soon (which basically means a loss).
If it only kicked-in at the end, then Survivors that end up in a 3-gen will have a tough time (as they should in this kind of situation) BUT the Killer won't be able to play chess for 50 minutes since they will have a limit (said limit being easily reached if stacking slowdown, so bye-bye Chess Merchant).
If the Survivors avoid a 3-gen at the end successfully then it doesn't matter if there's a limit or not anyway since the Killer can't be in 3 places at once.
Post edited by Skillfulstone on4 -
I edited it out to trim the fat, just to show its a forced game loss. I have the original of you seriously want to watch a bunch of people just hiding when I'd get near, but was just a boring watched so I cut to the ending. As for the other two that I won, again, the point is that BHVR stated that this would extremely rarely ever kick in in matches where a killer isnt just sitting camping at a 3 gen from the beginning of the match and refusing to progress the game. I'm literally proving that this assumption isn't correct. It is absolutely affecting normal matches where killers are not sitting at 3 gens from the beginning of the match refusing to progress the game. Doesn't matter if the end result is a loss or a win. What matters is if it is affecting normal matches...which it is.
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It ultimately does hurt the weaker/m1 killers the most unfortunately.
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I absolutely disdain this mechanic. It also rewards intense gen rushing since after a bit, the killer can’t kick the gen. I’m forced to abandon gens survivors just rush too because I can’t regress it anyway
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Lost a game last night because the survivors pressured the middle yamaoka gen on the temple from the start of the game. I kept going back, finding a survivor, hitting them and kicking the gen and eventually it blocked.
As a killer without any mobility that middle gen is crucial. The game becomes much much harder if it's done. It felt very bad.
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BHVR, here is an example of how survivors can easily get a gen locked up in the first few minutes of the match. That means the majority of the match, the gen is permanently locked up meaning it's incredibly easy to get it repaired - especially for a vital central gen. This was about 2-3 minutes into the match. We already managed to cause the killer to lose HALF of his allotted charges! If it was eruption, it would have been twice as fast. The killer was chasing, downing, hooking, clearly not just sitting at the 3 gen and just camping. Despite all of this, he was severely punished by the game mechanic and lost a vital gen easily just because we kept ninjaing this center gen. What else could he have done? Just not kick it? Then we'd finish it even faster. This is ridiculous. This is even worst for m1 killers.
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Yeah, it's come to a point where, in SWF at least (although not necessarily a 4-stack, a duo can do it) it's a decent strat to not complete a high-traffic gen on purpose but keeping it at a high progress (between 50% and 70% in order to somewhat mitigate a very likely PGTW and/or Pain Res since every other regression perks have basically disappeared) and simply stopping it from regressing. If, for some reason once in a blue moon, the Killer uses Eruption and/or Surge it's ridiculously easy.
Low-mobility/weaker/M1 Killers can't really afford to not kick an important gen (or any gen for that matter) with high progress in-between chases and eventually it'll be locked and we'll keep it for the end. Even if we 3-gen ourselves the Killer can't really move from the blocked (or nearly-blocked) gen so it's an easy endgame.
Whenever I SWF and we end up against one of those Killers I often propose to do this depending on the team. It's not really reliable against faster/stronger Killers since time is of the essence and pre-running isn't really effective (not to mention those Killers often have info and chase perks since they don't need gen defense or anti-heal/slowdown much so taking chases is risky) but it's very effective against the likes of Sadako, Ghosty, Nemesis and Pig if your teammates don't go down easy and the Killer doesn't feel like letting gens be at a high progress.
I never thought I'd say this after the horrid OverBrine Eruption meta, but I kinda miss seeing Surge and Eruption or Nowhere to Hide, Surge is still somewhat used but it's easy to have it backfire, add a handful of saves or successful sabos and a gen can be halfway-blocked within 4 downs.
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This is just a Surge issue, not a low-tier Killer issue. I run PR/Floods/Coup/Lethal and never have issues reaching 8 events on 1 gen while killing them (in 70%+ of matches) before they can pop the final. If you have enough Iri Cams you can even substitute Floods for something else like Bamboozle. I find lethality to be the most useful for Ghosty, but I also refuse to chase until I get 2-3 99s in early game. You can also replace a slowdown perk with the Driver's License if you engage in a heavy stalk playstyle. With DL you can somewhat frequently mark a second person mid chase on another injured person just to boot them off the gen and regress it.
Similarly with Clown I run Pop as my sole slowdown and also have no problems winning (again in 70%+) before the final gen pops. No Tombstone Myers I don't even run gen regression perks and run Thana/Plaything/Penti/(Coup or Bam 4th), although that build had a steep learning curve before I reached close to my Ghosty/Clown winrates (9/10 first matches were losses before I understood game flow to win).
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As you can see from the videos provided, the issue happened even when not running surge. Still happens on normal matches. That being said, it happens FAR more often with surge - absolutely! I'm just pointing out it's still affecting normal matches even without surge. I also posted a follow-up video showing how my survivor team was able to reduce a knight's charges on a gen down to HALF of his charges on the main gen before the 3 minute mark of a match. He was not running ANY regression perks.
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If it was just a Surge issue the Surge is the only perk that would have been mentioned.
Quite frankly, Surge isn't the worst perk for this, Eruption is, in a way, far worse since it takes away 2 regression events for a measly 10% (which is literally just 2 base kicks, doesn't even stop Survivors from getting back on it instantly to get back the progress before the Killer can hook and go back, Eruption was less of a trash perk when kicks were 2.5% since it was at least better than 2 base kicks), combine it with Surge and more than 30% of your regression events are gone in one kick and one down.
But it's not just a perk issue. Weaker/slower/M1 Killers simply can't deal with Survivors that keep going for the same gens if the Survivors are half-decent in chase (or hiding). The system expects the Killers to wait until the gens have a high progress to regress them but gen-speed simply doesn't allow that, not kicking a gen that's above 30% in-between chases is just asking for a hidden Survivor(s) to come back to finish it (since a gen at 30% takes slightly less than a minute to complete and that's without any gen perks/items/multiple Survivors/great skillchecks), but kicking those gens when found can force the Killer in a bad spot in lategame if they are past the halfway point by the time there's one gen left.
To compensate for this, Killers have to do their upmost to get at least one person out asap, there's a reason why tunnelling has recently increased significantly and perk variety took a dive (Except for Pop and Pain Res there's effectively no regression perks being used often, all non-regression kick perks like Trail of Torment or Nowhere To Hide are basically gone). The mechanic is supposed to remove endless games without messing with normal games, it currently does affect normal games since this mechanic alone shifted the meta, reduced perk variety and made weaker/M1 Killers harder to play at a higher level. Endless games are obnoxious and the idea behind the mechanic isn't worthless but all it needs to be perfect is to only activate when there's one gen left.
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Another update without a word about fixing the Anti-3-gen system...
I'm still holding on to some hope...the only thing keeping me hoping is that the devs haven't locked this thread and didn't make a statement saying that the mechanic, in it's current form, is final. People don't even want it gone, they just want it to not severely limit perks and gen-defense for weaker/M1 Killers during the whole trial, that's all.
Too many people are currently speaking up about the rampant tunnelling and very low perk variety (Pain Res, Pop, Grim Embrace, DMS) without seeing that it's a direct consequence from how gen defense was limited.
Side-note; two of the new perks are gen-kick perks, one of which entirely relies on Survivors missing skillchecks (automatically making it a wasted slot the moment you go against Survivors with a kernel of experience) and takes a ridiculously long time to even acquire those tokens even with an entire build dedicated to hard skillchecks with Doctor. Same goes for Unforeseen, a mix between Dark Devotion and Trail of Torment and requires a kick that gives 0 extra slowdown for temporary stealth and a fake Terror Radius which automatically makes it mediocre since it takes away 1/8 regression events for maybe getting some value. Those two perks will be used for adepts/meme builds and then never really seen again outside of new users. It's baffling that two gen-kick perks, one of which not offering extra slowdown and the other being reliant on Survivor mistake to offer any meaningful slowdown, are added just after implementing a mechanic putting a hard-limit on regression that's easily reached with weaker/M1 Killers if Survivors are decent. I'd honestly try out those perks outside of adept if I wasn't forced to count every kicks the whole time.
Although who knows, maybe it's a sign that the mechanic is being looked at, after all, why release gen-kick perks giving little slowdown just after limiting gen-regression during entire trials?
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I'm sorry but you first asked to not comment on the play/mistakes made, so I held my tongue, but now you specifically said to watch and comment on the videos. You very often dropped chase/pressure opportunities to kick a gen for no reason. That contributed to the gen limit because you were trying to slow down the opponents win condition instead of advancing your own. Not only that, but you nearly never made use of your power to pre-stalk 2-3 players, or even approach from odd angles to get a free down. I can understand if you kicked a gen, stalked the person you pushed off, then they are forced to follow you and reveal, or stop the gen regression, but you would kick and follow instead (most often). The first match showcased multiple bodyblocks, and one of the times you got a free down because there was a pre-stalk, but that was far from as common as it should be happening.
As far as the Knight video, that also showcases attempting to delay the game indefinitely instead of actually progress the win condition. Winning through attrition shouldn't be the primary means of Killer winning, but it most certainly should help (pallet destruction). The Knight needlessly sent a minion to kick the gen (which denied him a Nowhere to Hide usage), when he should have plopped the minion near it to keep people off and chase them (as the minion likely would have seen you through the wall, even if he didn't know you were there specifically). The Knight not running any regression perks shows how much of a foolish mistake it was to kick the gen over and over for no real benefit. Get a down and then use Pop or PR or Eruption proc or whatever, just don't try to stall the game.
Gen regression is now a resource for Killer, just as Pallets are for Survivor. If you recklessly kick/pre-drop all your resources away, you will cause your side to lose. That seems better for the game at large. It isn't affecting normal matches, just the ones where people refuse to chase are being punished. This is an important time to learn the new mechanics and adapt to get away from stalling playstyles. I do think Surge and Eruption need to be adjusted, but I don't know how to fix Surge. For Eruption, I would just make the proc not count as a regression event (as you needed to kick the gen to set it up regardless, so it would still advance the max regression count).
See final paragraph in the above reply for Eruption/Surge, as well as the Pallet/Gen Regression comparison.
I think the problem is from weaker Killer players getting too used to attrition wins against Survivors by running them out of pallets for free wins. Kicking the gen gives a Survivor 7.2m, or since a Killer moves .6m/s faster than Survivor, 12 free chase seconds at the cost of 5 gen seconds. That is a losing proposition unless they are cornered (and not actually getting that distance), or you are applying a perk to give you 7+ seconds of chase shortening or gen regression (eg. Nurse+Nowhere to Hide, or the gen is PGTW'd at 50%+).
As far as hidden Survivors, Lethal+NTH solves that. Lethal lets Killer know how many people have Distortion, and how to plan their early game (excellent for Ghosty/Myers to plan a multi-stalk route). As far as gen speeds, if a chase takes 60s to down and hook, there were massive mistakes made by the Killer. The Killer with extended chases like that should record their matches, then watch the recording and think about different options they could have made, or if they destroyed a lot of pallets in that area, push future chases back into that deadzone. Kicking a 30% gen down to 25% only to regress to 22% after 12s(when the Killer ran 55m away) and the hidden Survivor gets on the gen is still the wrong move to take without relevant gen perks. Even there wasn't a Survivor, the Killer has to still lose that 12 chase seconds while 2 or 3 other Survivors are repairing gens for 36s of gen time. Getting to chase is more important that random gen delay.
Tunneling has undergone a significant increase ever since they deleted all anti-tunnel perks from the game after patch 6.1. (Yes they didn't 'delete' them, but 3s DS is useless against the majority of Killers, and OTR doesn't work if the Killer tunnels off-hook.) It is an easy free win against soloq, and since 60% of matches include soloq, Killer wins more than loses by doing it. Just like instakicking gens, it is a bad habit formed from previous free wins, causing the Killer to believe that win was 'earned' instead of simply cheesed by abusing soloq bad habits.
Personally, I would prefer instead of the Regression limit as X events(per gen), it was X%(per gen). I would set it at 100%, so you never would have to spend more than 3 minutes to repair a single gen (90s+90s).
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I agree with EVERYTHING you said
I've made my own posts about this as well. Not sure how to get the devs to listen. I am often getting gens blocked mid game. I have removed My favorite perks, surge and eruption , from all of my load outs because by the time I've downed 2 people I usually have generators blocked, leaving me with no options for late game Gen defense. But even without surge I am having gens blocked. Weak m1 Killers NEED Gen regression perks, but are punished for using them.i vastly prefer killer but I am playing less and less because it's just becoming too frustrating.
Possible solutions;
1. Raise regression limits
2. Do not have regression that's tied to a perk count towards limit. Only count kicks
3. Only start limiting regression events once a certain number of generators are completed.
Really sad I'm losing interest in my favorite game due to this horribly unfair mechanic.
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IT'S NOT A MATTER OF WINNING! NO ONE IS SAYING THAT THE MECHANIC WILL DOOM WEAK KILLERS TO LOSE.
If regression is a limited resource, it automatically kills any non-optimal perks! Why do you think that except for Pain Res, Pop, Grim Embrace and DMS then slowdown perks have become even more rare than before!? Why do you think tunnelling has risen significantly recently? Weaker Killers, if they want to win against decent Survivors, can't afford to dally in getting one Survivor out and can't waste limited regression events with perks giving a measly 8% or 10% (without perks/items/great skillchecks this takes less than 10 seconds to recover, even less with several Survivors). Why bring Nowhere to Hide if Survivors might be in a locker, have Distortion (like in the video where the Knight kicked the gen himself once and the Survivor lost a Distortion token, effectively wasting the Killer's kick and going back to repair immediately) or simply be far enough away after having pre-ran? This kick is automatically 1/8th of your regression events wasted on that gen, ergo it's not worth the perk slot when starting to go against decent Survivors. Why use Trail of Torment if a hidden Survivor can remove the effect mere seconds after you turn your back, wasting a regression event for no significant value?
And again: The limit is useable by decent Survivors! Vital gens can be purposefully kept on decent progress to force the Killer to kick/regress them. And don't say "then don't regress the gen!" because it's not an option against decent Survivors! Since you have no way to know if they'll be using the limit against you, you have to assume they'll finish the gen given the chance, which can take a pretty short time, a single bad chase against a half-decent Survivor can easily give enough time to complete a gen that's already on the way.
Sometimes losing one vital gen (main lobby in R.P.D., center on Yamakoa, Center on Lérys, 2nd story in Main buildings of Asylum etc.) can guarantee a hard endgame due to gens suddenly being pretty far apart (and those gens being likely to be halfway/low on regression events by the end) and weaker/slow/M1 Killers don't have the mobility to deal with this, they never have and never will.
But Survivors having an easier time if they manage to do those high-traffic gens is a good thing because there should be a way to make the lategame a bit easier and avoid a 3-gen, it was part of Survivor gameplay to choose which gens to do in order to be able to repair gens in relative safety despite the "playground" getting smaller to make sure that they could get the most value out of their teammates' chases. Good Survivors, before this ill-thought-out limit was implemented, would (and still do) divebomb vital and/or high-traffic gens in order to get the hardest gens first and make lategame (if they survived this long) easier on themselves, now they can do the gens in mostly whatever order they want if they are not going against a high-mobility/powerful Killer since there's a likely chance that some gens will have been regressed several times already and the Killer will be forced to prioritize. Tight matches will suddenly turn into stress-inducing losses because the Killer simply couldn't afford to not focus on defending one of the last 3 gens over the others.
If the mechanic only worked during the last gen (some people are apparently saying that due to bad map rng and Skull Merchant existing it maybe should kick in at 2 gens remaining but 4-gen setups are a tad too rare for that in my opinion, it would be better than now I guess) then it would bring back the previous strategy to remove vital gens early BUT would prevent endless games even if the game ended on a 3-gen, the only difference is that a Killer that guarded his 3-gen from the get-go will have to deal with a team in better shape and, due to likely having brought regression perks, will burn through those regression events fast defending a 3-gen against a team in good shape (just like before, but add the good part that Chess Merchant and Attrition Knight can't really exist anymore due to regression limit). I'd honestly take the regression events being reduced to 6-7 if it meant being only active during last gen.
Killers aren't killing less but now they are killing in the same way with the same perks and tunnelling more and weaker Killers are simply more affected by this. The update explicitly stated that the mechanic should not affect normal gameplay, however since it forces non-3-genning people to change their builds and playstyles then it's logical to say it does affect normal gameplay.
Changing the regression limit to be percentage-based but still active the whole trial would just shift the problem instead of fixing it: it would hurt stronger but fairer regression perks (Pain Res and Pop are well-designed because they require a hook but could block a gen in like 4-5 activations if used together and the gen is getting pressured by Survivors) the game would just become gen-blocking and tunnelling simulator. It would be even easier for Survivors to use the regression limit against the Killer.
A and S tier Killers (Nurse, Blight, Wesker etc.) don't care about this mechanic because they never needed regression that much compared to weaker/M1 Killers, their chases tend to be shorter and they can patrol effectively even if they lose a Survivor, leaving a chase that's lasting too long isn't that much of a blow to their game compared to slow Killers and gens will likely have less progress on them when they reach them (which means wasting a kick sometimes isn't even necessary, mitigating the mechanic's effect early on). Nobody is saying that the mechanic is killing all Killers, we're saying it's clearly affecting the gameplay of weaker/M1 Killers more and it shouldn't do so. The 3-gen solution was marketed as something that would stop endless 3-gen stalemates and while it does that, it also shifts the entire gameplay for weaker/M1 Killers and makes many perks redundant, lowering perk and Killer variety which is something that no one wants.
Post edited by Skillfulstone on0 -
Initial scream: I'm saying weak Killers (or rather weak Killer players) will lose if they play bad, such as wasting their regression resources. My name is "mizark3" on the forums here, not "NO ONE".
P1: I don't think it kills non-optimal perks as much as it punishes foolish usage of perks. Both sides get punished for making mistakes, and that should never be framed as bad. If someone misplays, they shouldn't be rewarded. As far as tunneling, I already detailed that in the 3rd paragraph of my reply to you above. Short version is they killed anti-tunnel from 6.1, and it has slowly risen over time until they actually put anti-tunnel back in the game.
P2: The limit of gen regression is a tool for skilled Survivors as the limit of pallets is a tool for skilled Killers. I think both sides having access to macro skill expression is good for the game. Just as Survivors can waste their pallets and give the Killer an advantage, if the Killer mindlessly kicks gens at 7% instead of chasing the Survivor on the gen, they should gift the Survivors an advantage. Bad plays should result in bad outcomes.
P3: If the defense of one gen is so vital, the Killer should wisely use their regression on that gen, and more importantly chase the Survivors off of the gen and hook them. Before a Survivor is hooked, there are 3 Survivors on gens, and 1 in chase, or 300% gen efficiency. After a Survivor is hooked, there should be 1 on hook/being healed, 1 rescuing/healing, 1 in chase, and 1 on gens, or 100% gen efficiency. By actually putting pressure on Survivors, the Killer is able to apply 66% slowdown to gens. That is like full Thana+Pentimento+Gift of Pain all put together (if GoP and Thana weren't mutually exclusive). If the Killer decides to chase the person where the previous Survivor went down, then there likely aren't any pallets remaining, and the chase goes that much easier.
P4: The threat of the Killer is reliant on their presence. If the Killer is present and aware, they will chase and down the Survivors going for specific high priority areas. Then when the next Survivor attempts that high value target, the Killer has a deadzone to work with, making it easier on subsequent chases. The Killer doesn't need mobility as much as they need presence of mind to plan their opponents moves and counter them in Macro efforts (consumable resources) as well as Micro efforts (individual chase decisions).
P5: It is important to always work, because a Killer can merely scan the map and plan out their 4/5 gen instead of 3 gen, and play defense instead of offense. H-maps are notorious to have a 5 gen in about half of (my) matches, and a 4 gen in the remaining half of (my) matches. Now you confused me here. You mention Attrition Knight, which the video clearly showed the Killer engaging in that playstyle (only kicking when a Survivor isn't on hook providing pressure), but now you are against it? I'm sorry could you explain how he isn't playing Attrition Knight if he bothered to kick the same gen 4 times in 3 minutes without a single event being while someone was on hook? That looks like Attrition Knight to me.
P6: I think this is a misdiagnosis of the problem as players crutching on tunneling (due to the lack of any counterplay) is the problem here. If someone can't crutch on something, they have to learn to adapt.
P7: Why is PR and Pop being applied together being considered more fair than Surge? It would shift the issue yes, but it would make what I believe to be the fairer usage of perks to be what is impacted. No one enjoys doing a gen 4 times over, and both spam kicks and hard hitting regression both attack that same concept. Plus with the system as is, PR/Pop can be cheesed by repairing 4.75% before letting go to deny the Pop anyway. That I think is a greater issue to fix.
P8: Mobility Killers are too powerful, we already knew this. Bringing all Killers in line to a similar power level would allow for an easier time negotiating these differences. I fully think S and D tier shouldn't exist, and S should be nerfed down to A or lower, and D buffed up to C or higher. Also throw in wildcard changes like the Billy buff to bring weaker Killers up to A tier, and equal type nerfs to bring A tier Killers down to C tier. I think the issue here is people are engaging in 3-gen regression styled strategies, but don't want to admit they are doing it. Surge is an exception to that, as it more accidentally does that than purposefully does.
Conclusion: Going back to the Knight example, they had 0 reason to kick the gen 4 times in 3 minutes (without a Survivor on hook) unless they were engaged in that 3-gen playstyle. Like I detailed in my prior response (but it might have been in the section to the other poster), a gen kick gives the Survivor 12s extra in chase, or if no one is on hook, 36 extra gen seconds (minus 8 for the kick and passive regression) across the map. If those Killers stop kicking and start chasing, they would get much better results. This isn't affecting normal matches, this is affecting some of the lowest skill bracket matches, and people intentionally engaging in 3-gen and 3-gen adjacent actions.
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