Sable Ward Perks Feedback
Sable Ward is heading into The Fog fwith three new Perks and a new Perk type: Invocation. Let us know below what you think of her Perks.
Comments
-
I have to stress again just how terrible weaving spiders is. Yes, on paper installing 7 bnps sounds insane until you look at the cost. 120 seconds sitting in the basement doing nothing and becoming permanently broken. This isn't worth it at all.
Wicked at least has some use as an info perk now. Still, the "main effect" is extremely situational but the aura reading part is usable and pushes the perk from bad to niche.
Strength in shadows is meh. It's not offensively bad (unlike weaving spiders) but it's also not really worth using. Running injured across the map to self care in basement is risky and should have a higher reward. It's probably faster to just self care in a safer place anywhere on the map.
18 -
Its -10 off the gen and killer can never undo it with Brandnew parts you could take one of the killers 3gens and reduce it to 40 (40 Brand new parts and the perk) he would be forced to either camp the gen fully or give up on that gen protect.
2 -
Weaving spiders: Make that you loose a hook state by completing it, instead of being broken and reduce the time it takes to 80-100s.
Strength in shadows is good I think.
Wicket: Add that you are able to try to unhook yourself at second hook stage even when not in the basement.
5 -
So let me get this straight: the scenario you're picturing here is the killer trying to hold a 3 gen and then the survivors use weaving spiders and install 4 bnps on the same gen. Did I get that correctly?
1 -
All I am saying is if you use the correct pressure on the killer trying to end game hold gens you can effectively destroy the control.
1 -
That is not "using the correct pressure", that is something a swf that basically already won can do to flex on the killer. Are you implying that, because of this extremely, absurdly specific scenario, weaving spiders is not a terrible perk? Or am I just misunderstanding something?
6 -
I think invocations are just going to be annoying for the killer. It doesn’t matter how powerful the invocations are, the threat of them will always be there. And if the basement isn’t anywhere near any unfinished generators, then killers would need to greatly increase their patrol path to check on the basement.
In general, invocations are just a “let’s make low mobility killers feel even worse” idea.
3 -
It would not hurt anyone if Invocation: WS was 15 charges and not 10, only make the perk a bit more appealing. The -5 extra seconds won't harm anyone, come on BHVR.
Strength in Shadows is good. And will be better after the big boom around the chapter stops. I'm satisfied.
Wicked... The aura reveal part, great. The basement unhook is also good imo.
So overall, these perks are decent. I like them.
1 -
All I am saying if used correctly can make the game hard for the killer to apply pressure and keep gens unworked. The trade off is huge being broken and injured the whole game but the reward is good also.
1 -
Pulled off a successful Weaving Spiders, stayed alive for about 8-10 minutes before dying, died and got ~7,000 Bloodpoints. It's ridiculous.
The perk should give more bloodpoints for succesfully completing, or it could give a Bloodpoint bonus multiplier like old We're Gonna Live Forever.
4 -
It should give atleast a big bloodpoints boost like the White Glyph.
Both require you to go out of your way to get them to work and to go into the basement.
Completed White Glyph Mirror (+escape) gives you 25k bloodpoints. A successfull Invocation could give atleast 5 - 7k or more.
4 -
Very underwhelming and questionable perks overall.
Weaving spiders : the time spent in the basement + the broken effect for the rest of the trial is just not worth it for so little. Reduce the time it takes and also let the broken status lasts 2 mins.
Strenght in Shadows : very very mid, also in this case the time spent to travel into the basement and heal at a modest 70% is not worth it.
Wicked : probably the best of the three but very situational, it needs to be activated at the second stage as well and denied in the end-game.
9 -
increase weaving spiders charge reduction to 13 form 10 that way completing it will be the equivalent of completing one gen and make it so the broken effect lasts until the survivor is hooked not all match
2 -
The wicked perk description is still the wrong old one in german.
Played some games - never get to use these two once.
Weaving spiders - i pulled it off - btw very cool animation imo - but being broken for the trial is pretty awful.
Also you need to do it at the beginning - in some trials two or three gens were already done before i could start. Then it isn´t worth it anymore.
3 -
"Wicked" needs to have an icon visible to your teammates when you're hooked in the basement
It's the same problem that Deliverance has, or the anti camping bar has:
TEAMMATES DON'T KNOW IF YOU CAN UNHOOK YOURSELF
That is a gigantic problem.
Solution: show an icon to everyone when you're hooked with "Wicked" in the basement,
So teammates are notified that you can actually unhook yourself/kobe, without wasting time reaching you.
6 -
Invocation is extremely weak. It's going to need serious buffs to make it at all usable, as it stands 2 minutes of tome and perma-broken will never be worth 50 seconds less total gen work time. I said this in a DM with a friend about what I think could make it worth running:
Strength in shadows is a mediocre self healing perk, but realistically self heal needs to be mediocre at best because otherwise it is Too Strong, so honestly I'm fine with it as it is EDIT: I've played it paired with Botany Knowledge a couple times now and the combo of the two is Actually Pretty Good(tm). The value from the combo is, by and large, worth the 2 perk slots and not any more than that.
Wicked is also incredibly niche - I feel like its main use will be for people to be able to tell if the killer is coming back to hook in order to tunnel, so they know which direction to leave for optimal distance if they can't see the killer (indoor maps and LOS blockers); people won't really run it for the self unhook because it's really so unreliable
Post edited by ratcoffee on8 -
These perks make me want to never play low mobility killers.
2 -
Weaving Spiders should not regress progress when the action is interrupted. It's incredibly punishing to spend 110 seconds doing the Invocation, only to be interrupted at the very end and have to spend another 120 seconds.
5 -
The only perk that looks useful at all is the one where you can unhook yourself from basement.
0 -
My invocation circle didnt spawn in the basement on lery's. Perk completely useless in this case but i've only had it happen on Lery's so far.
0 -
The invocation perk doesn’t feel very incentivizing to use, especially when you get no bloodpoints for risking all that time in the basement. It should give objective based bloodpoints.
2 -
i don't think broken for the entire match is necessary. i think broken for a long time is fair enough. it doesn't really mesh well with her other perks.
running adept sable for example - you have 2 options.
option 1:
- you go to the basement with a blueprint add-on
- you perform an invocation
- you get killed in the basement and hooked. killer leaves
- you unhook yourself and the killer gets a noise notification
- you hide in the basement while healing
- killer decides to not come back so you complete the heal.
- you see the killer isn't concerned with basement
- you finish the invocation. now you're broken
- all of your perks are useless now
or
option 2:
- you get caught early and placed in the basement by killer
- you unhook yourself
- killer doesnt care
- you heal yourself
- killer doesnt care
- you start the invocation and complete it
- killer doesnt care
- all of your perks are useless now
any other combination of this perk build is wasting a perk.
invocation first? now you can't heal.
already got hooked outside of basement? now you can't unhook in basement.
unhooked yourself, but killer came back due to noise notification? can't heal or invoke when on the hook. probably should have ran.
invocations are super cool. assuming they're all going to take place in the basement one has to wonder how that might affect the meta. maybe there will be some free form versions of invocations that allow you to do them anywhere or inside of a locker or something.
4 player weaving spider invocation's interaction should be looked at more. consider making the circle have 4 positions. the perk owner sits at the head of the circle - back facing the wall looking at the stairs. the other players sit at the 3 points left, right, and opposite (facing back turned towards stairs). opposite being the last position to be filled for the sake of gameplay. if the head of the invocation gets up the invocation is cancelled. only the player at the head of the invocation is affected by the negative effects. other survivors sharing that perk just speed the process up more than those without. then each player can choose to be the one to be broken or not and each use of the perk becomes worthwhile - just trade out invocation leaders.
i think that would allow for a more intuitive design of the perk. the stream example where one player starts it then the other person finishes it is a bit counterintuitive and honestly goes against good game design. it feels like a bug more than a gameplay design choice that's intentional.
those are my thoughts on sable.
oh and i like her model. it's ticking all the right boxes for a lot of people. myself included.
3 -
to be honest i love weaving spiders especially, dont really care about the others because weaving spiders ultimately is fun and often enables my teammates to come with me and be altruistic. The one other perk i do have a problem with tho is strength in shadows, kind of contradictory to heal urself in basement when another perk makes u broken…
also would be nice if the invocation circle was highlighted in white so i dont look all over the map
0 -
Innvocation Weaving Spiders
I like the circle but it's hard to use. The effects are very nice just this would get me to play this perk, sometimes. It's a pretty cool feeling vs killer who altering the environment like Dredge or Freddy.
Like Better Together other player can join.. even the chased one. 🙄
It's weak but I hope it will not changed into a meta perk and keep the "nice to have" line.
Strength in Shadows
Not a perk for me
As a newer player I need too long to search the basement. And even then it's a long way to go there.
Wicked
Situational
Don't played it enough
0 -
1. Invocation:
I have used it multiple times so far and I have to admit that it was kinda meh using it. You are holding M1 for 2min for 7 BNPs at max. From my experience 2 Gens pop before you are done. Any disturbance makes the perk useless. I got interrupted by Friends till the End, BBQ, Darkness Revealed or UW multiple times. I also tried different builds with it as interruption was one of the main issues. But if you equip Distortion/Calm Spirit, you will get tunneled. If you try to counter that you will get found. If you want to build around being injured (Resilience, DH, IW or No Mither) you can get found and will be tunneled. Because that is what happens once you get found once you are broken.
For now the reward is too small to be injured all the time and just asking to get tunneled.
Suggestion: Instead of being broken for the rest of the match either remove a health state or make you broken until you are hooked once. Reduce the time a bit to make it more worthwhile. You are basically completing 7/9 of a Gen max, so the time should fit that (which is about 70s). Maybe people finishing gens could speed up the Invocation, because there are less BNPs you create basically. I understand that there has to be a bit of a time loss because it is irreversible. So I guess 90s for 7 BNP equivalent would do. Every finished gen could reduce this time by 15s each. So you could even consider doing it at the end of the game and just sit in the basement for 30s to BNP 3 gens.
2. Strength in Shadows:
The speed buff is nice although it could still be a bit higher because you potentially need to run across the map to use it. But it doesn't need much.
3. Wicked:
A nice perk, but as the unhooking is only guaranteed in the basement, I would suggest to also be able to unhook yourself in the basement during the 2nd stage to make it worthwhile.
Although I see the problem with anti-hook builds and swf.
2 -
Invocation Weaving Spiders
Fun new perk concept and I love the idea of these kinds of perks, but it's difficult to make this work. Obviously 10 permanent charges on every generator is a powerful effect, however the tradeoff of needing to either spend two full minutes in the basement by yourself or have the entire team down there helping is rough. Not to mention that being broken for the rest of the trial is a pretty serious downside. I could see being broken for the rest of your current hook state or for a decently long time (so that Vigil can interact with it maybe), but the perk turning into No Mither is a bit rough. Downsides aside, the time requirement for the effect just doesn't work out mathematically. I totally understand being conservative on the numbers to make sure this isn't a must-have perk, but I think it either needs the downsides tweaked or the numbers buffed to make the downside worth it.
Strength in Shadows
I've been running this with Botany Knowledge and it's really great. It's not without its downsides, but I like the effect and the aura read is helpful. Very much happy with this perk.
Wicked
Situational perk, but the added aura read on unhooks everywhere is pretty nice if you are a survivor that wants to avoid the killer after unhooks and doesn't want to run immediately into them. I think overall I'm happy with where this perk is.
0 -
Strength in Shadows
love this perk. I use bite the bullet and heal in the basement while listening to the sweet screams of others who call out to the killer after Ultimate Weapon. Thought it would be worse but I truly enjoy running it now.
Wicked
Is a great perk to give information almost like a kindred but you can do something. It also lets you know if you can heal, get on gen, or where to run to.
Weaving Spiders
It is a novelty perk. It is fun to do a few times but the consequence is not worth the lack of reward. I like the concept and the visuals. I also like how you can have others join in. The outcome is not good enough. I place it with the other perks I will never be using.
0 -
I think Strength in Shadows is way too strong right now, and I don't think this is going to be a widely-realized issue until a month or two has passed, and Killers begin realizing the Hit and Run playstyle has been eliminated, just like when Circle of Healing was first introduced.
It's already introducing a creeping level of stress in my Killer games where I feel like I HAVE to commit to EVERY chase or I will lose all my progress on everyone; as Killer I can't afford to run all the way across the map (especially if every generator by Basement has been completed, so there are no objectives to defend over there) every time I drop chase with someone.
Strength in Shadows has recreated the issue of stress that the original Boon: Circle of Healing created, and I think it is quickly going to become a perk that everyone will be running every match because of how objectively strong it is.
In its current state, Circle of Healing is not problematic because on top of requiring travel, it requires not just one but two survivors to pull off.
Even though Strength in Shadows takes a while to traverse to the basement, it's too strong to be able to infinitely heal yourself in just over 30 seconds with almost no downside AND the added benefit of aura reading.
The likelihood of catching Survivors in the basement is almost none, and in most matches may actually be the SAFEST place to heal, because Killers don't have any reason to check the basement on the off chance that someone may be healing (or even when someone is healing) when generators are actively being pressured. The basement is so far out of the way that it's just an incredibly safe place to be, even in a brief meta where everyone is running to the basement.
I've been running Territorial Imperative and even with that warning I can't get to the basement fast enough on most maps to stop heals, especially so on massive maps like Family Residence. Going out of my way to patrol basement is making me lose games even if I catch someone because generators are being worked on while I stop a heal, but if I drop a chase just to injure someone on a gen then the Survivor I just injured runs back to basement and the cycle starts all over again.
1 -
I think Strength in Shadows is largely fine, most people complaining about it aren't taking the travel time into the equation. Most times it would be better to just bring Self-Care or a Med-Kit and BTL for reloads and that would be more time efficient.
Wicked is neat, but largely unimpressive. If it allowed a single basement self-unhook regardless of hook state then it would be much better, but as is, its mediocre at best.
Weaving Spiders is so cool in theory, but not in practice. This is the only perk I care about as it is a new mechanic, so replies to other thoughts on WS are found below.
Weaving Spiders is so pathetic that I'm surprised it got nerfed before hitting live.
-10s on all gens for 120s isn't worth it even in the best case scenario (all 7 for 70). The problem is the perk isn't time efficient AND it has a massive drawback on top of it. The current version of the perk is only good for people being tunneled, then lost in chase (somehow), then hiding in basement doing the invocation for the rest of the match.
Weaving Spiders - I like this idea for a penalty, as you could do it on death hook for no penalty, but the Killer has a free basement kill if they find you. Alternatively have the Invocation duration also be the Broken duration, so if people co-oped it they also help you be broken for less time.
This is the only criticism of Invocations I've heard that makes valid points. For Killer it will always be a nuisance factor, and strict nuisance factors for the opposition shouldn't be encouraged. They very well could end up mostly being used by bad actors as troll perks, like Knockout or No Mither (to troll your team).
WS - That was what I was expecting when people asked for it to be permanent. Bizarre they had to slap such a massive penalty on a perk with such a massive downside.
I'm of two minds on this one. I can see the nuisance factor Coffeecrashing brought up (see two replies above), and this would help mitigate that on the Killer's end. At the same time if someone sees a soloq teammate doing this, get interrupted, then try it again later, they're probably going to ragequit to leave that 3v2. Maybe a hybrid system with 25% checkpoints would be fine, or alternatively dropping the time down to 60s (with the current 10s/gen).
It should probably just give you the 7k Escape Survival BP on completion. You are basically killing yourself by using the perk, so it should just give you the benefit of what you are denying yourself. The BP category already has difficulties reaching the full 10k, so this could also help in that respect.
1 -
The bigger problem is what happens in the future, if there are more invocation perks? This one invocation perk might be underwhelming by itself, but if the game eventually has 4 invocation perks, then it might be worth stacking invocation perks. And it certainly might be obnoxious for the killer if all 4 invocation perks activate at the same time.
I honestly don't know how BHVR could ever balance multiple invocation perks existing at the same time, unless they aren't allowed to be stacked.
1 -
i think the invocation needs some adjustment. I have died on hook from 1st hook and many other times before from my teammates sitting in the basement doing the invocation. just now one was already sacrificed and me and my other teammate were trying to do gens and run killer while they were sitting in the basement which yeah thats cool would help us but when i get hooked for the 2nd time and my other teammate is running the killer trying to save me too (so no anti camp for me) they are just sitting in the basement. maybe put a pause on it to hold its progress for a certain amount of time when a teammate gets hooked and they have been sitting on hook or anything?? im losing so many party streamers and escape cakes to this perk that by the time they finish it they just get the hatch because were all dead
0 -
you have to get to end game first and this perk is crippling non 4 players SWFs lobbies. its a novelty perk that looks good on paper but is very hindersome to the team, much like the Vitto token perk which many players use just to use and dont understand that theyre are doing the gens slower for no reason at all.
you cant have perks like these with a skill cap or a severe learning curve in what is supposed to be a casually fun game. its not about winning and losing its about having fun and these perks have no place in a game where 80%+ of public matches are solo and duo queues. it creates too much frustration. one of the biggest balancing arguments that players overlook is that this is a 4v1 game where the 4 role is actually overpowered at high levels yet the number of players and complete teams who play at that level account for maybe 10% of the entire player base. this doesnt seem so bad to some who always play on full teams but the MMR system adds massive fuel to the fire as well which for random lobbies is a huge disadvantage.
0 -
Invocation: Weaving Spiders
The risk vs reward just isn't worth it, waiting two minutes (faster with SWF, not in solo q) in one of the deadliest parts of the map just to become Broken and slightly reduce the time to do Gens isn't a good idea + it's very boring.
Ever since the chapter released, anyone who even spend some time in the basement with this Perk just basically ended the match right there, we weren't winning that.
The Perk idea is good, what isn't is the time investment and the punishement you get for completing it... The reward is alright, but it won't win you trials, since the time you spent in the basement would have been better doing literally anything else.
What could be done?
I'm not sure to be honest, BHVR took the risk with a Perk that affects Gen speeds, these are always trouble to balance (along with Haste). One thing they could is to remove the unnecessary punishment of being broken, second thing they could do is to decrease the time it takes to finish so it's usable in solo q, also decrease the bonus from other users.
They should either completely rework this Perk into something that's niche but fun, or keep it the same but have several headaches with balancing this.
0 -
Invocation is extremely weak!! like how did you think it was something usefull?? with two minutes you can do one and half generativo, and you still got to be broken after that???
it is really sad how the devs think survivors deserve only useless and extremely weak perks.
survivors should get strong perks too, you know? we also paid a lot of money to play the game
4 -
seems like the devs concept of an acceptable survivor perk is something that is absurdly difficult to have any significant value in a regular match.
5 -
I must be the only one who doesn't hate Weaving Spiders. I appreciate the novelty of a new style of interaction, with a high-risk/high-reward scenario. People don't like how it takes 2 minutes to do but if you start at the beginning of the trial - when everyone is still hobknobbing around with totems and chests - then it's not terrible. Plus it's a permanent effect on all generators that cannot be kicked into regression by the killer. I imagine it has a profound impact in 3-gen scenarios. I like the perk, and I welcome it.
What I don't like is a perk that is "Basement Self-Care". Yes, 70% is 2x 35% but if you're restricted to a single, small area of the map, anyone who uses Self-Care (can't relate) will continue to do so - I don't think they'll be persuaded to replace it with Strength in Shadows.
Wicked is a niche idea. When it works, it works, but I would have personally rather seen its effects as a "rider" on another perk, such as Slippery Meat or Up the Ante.
I guess overall I would give Ward's perk array a 2.5 - 3.0 / 5 stars. Mostly good ideas, but in need of polishing.
0 -
Weaving spiders: it’s a unique perk nonetheless but the amount of time it takes and the fact you become broken makes the BNP effect not really worth it especially when you can’t leave it or else you have to restart it unlike a generator. A suggestion buff to this perk is to reduce the time it takes to complete the ritual to 90 seconds from 120 OR increase the gen progress back to 15%
Strength in shadows: it’s fine, it’s a self healing perk and that requires you to be in the basement. It’s not weak at all but it’s situationally strong, I say it’s good as is
Wicked: a cool perk, but I would argue it’s too situational and has the same issues as deliverance. I think the fact it’s situational is okay but I personally think for how situational it is it’s kind of lacking. A suggestion buff to this perk is to allow you to unhook yourself in both hook phases while in the basement
1 -
I think that weaving spiders is okay, tho animation could already count as time spent on invocation, and progress should be not lost if interrupted, only if cancelled.
Strenght in shadows could hide aura, bloodpools and scratchmarks in the basement while injured.
Wicked should work on both hook stages, prevent noise notification of unhook (maybe changed animation to hook just letting user out), and show other survivors your ability to unhook.
1 -
except there is no high reward??? 120 seconds wasted and perna broken for miserable 10 seconds of all gens? i cant see any worthy reward there
7 -
Let’s see what they decide to do with the feedback given.
0 -
You have to think of Wicked like Soul Guard. You run Soul Guard for the endurance on pick up not the unbreakable effect.
Wicked is the same way, you run Wicked for the 20 second aura reveal of the killer off hook and if you get hooked in the basement on 1st hook, you get an extra bonus.
20 second is such a long time to be able to watch the killer.
1 -
No need for Invocation: Weaving Spiders to give the permanent broken status effect, wasting 2 precious minutes is already detriment enough, unless the broken effect stays temporary
still love the whole basement theme though
0 -
Strength in Shadows is kinda problematic. I've been using it a lot and an infinite self heal that is more efficient than a normal heal and stacks with other healing perks isn't good for game health. It completely messes with normal game flow, removing the need for teamplay and coordination. That said, healing bar go weee with botany, resi, desperate measures.
Wicked has been a lot of fun on a complete anti-tunnel build, 20s of aura reading is nothing to scoff at. Not certain how I feel about the free unhook in basement as it can be forced and is free pressure, but I've been enjoying it, whether it is good for game health we'll have to see.
Invocation: Weaving Spiders, please I can't take another match of solo queue with randoms running this perk. Not much you can do to fix it as by design it creates a 3v1 for 2 minutes and messes with normal game flow. Maybe when/if other invocations are added it will be worth the slot/time, but for now running this perk is throwing the game.
1 -
I think Strength in Shadows is underrated and potentially dangerous. If the team does generators near the basement first and creates a safe zone similar to old circle of healing you could have a big problem. Killer doesn't really want to go to an area of the map where there are no generators. So unless basement is centered (which can be controlled with offerings) this could be a problem. It's not as bad as old circle of course, it's less reliable and the killer COULD eventually figure it out but there's potential there that might be unhealthy.
Wicked: Also good potential. Remains to be seen if its problematic but basement hooks existing as opposed to making hooks more consistent is a design choice I've always had issues with.
Invocation: Weaving Spiders: The killer perk of killer perks. Even self care can't compete with how useless this thing is and like self care it is a beginners trap. It's made even worse by the fact that it actually looks kinda cool which draws even more beginners into it's beginners trap. I've posted this screenshot elsewhere but this has already happened to me three times.
Think of poor Renato. All alone. Dying... both physically and inside. 😭
2 -
Yeah No, wicked is nothing like soul guard, the difference is the revive and 8 second endurance from soul guard can be game changing in the right circumstances. 20 seconds of aura read is good but it does not compare, the game changing part of this perk is being able to unhook yourself and I think for how heavily situational this perk is being able to unhook yourself TWICE if hooked in the basement would make this perk pretty good
0 -
I like the idea of getting new types of perks like Sables invocation perk and her other two basement related perks.
I do wonder if when more of these kinds of perks come out, we are going to get 2 instead of 1 basement spawns in either some matches (so a percentage chance to spawn a second basement simultaneously) or in all matches going foward. Maybe this could even create new offerings people could use. I would welcome such a change.
1 -
Wouldn't it be better if Sable Wards invocation made the user exposed for the rest of the trial instead of broken?
1 -
One quick idea: I actually like Weaving Spiders and want survivors to play it, so that I can find them in the basement, but right now this perk has too many downsides. One of the biggest is the vulnerability to aura reading and screaming perks, so here is my quick idea: make Wicked suppress screams and aura reading while in the basement. Its already extremely limited, so this could actually make it worthwile to combo with her other two perks for an complete basement care package.
4 -
I agree with limiting aura reading and screaming while invocating though I seriously think it's going to be very hard to balance this perk type. On the upside, might make Territorial Imperative finally see the light of day but I dunno if that's a good thing considering how poorly designed that perk is.
Post edited by Slowpeach on0 -
Her perks are so useless that no one runs them. I've been playing all week as killer to try and get the What Lurks Beneath achievement done and no one goes into the basement unless you hook someone there and even then they get unhooked and run out of the basement in two seconds. I know when people go into the basement because I'm running Territorial Imperative and the only thing it gets me is insults in post game chat and survivors telling me that I'm mentally incompetent for running it.
0
