I am so god damn sick of every game revolving around tunneling
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This is the quote right here all killer mains say oh its not my responsibility you are right but don't complain when your tactics get nerfed because bhvr has to address that new people don't want to play the game because that tactic makes the game boring. You dug your own grave by tunneling and abusing it and then it gets nerfed.
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The difference between you and me is:
- I care about survivors' fun when playing killer, thats why I put hard rule of not tunneling in the first place, even if I made great mistakes, thats my fault I should lose, not tunnel to make up for the mistakes. So I want to have the same fun when playing as survivors and complain about tunneling.
- You dont care about survivors no matter what skill they are, even against newbie (hard tunnel at 5 Gen is perfectly acceptable). While complain about survivors playing well in chase efficient on Gens because that affect your fun.
Your mindset is not "Your fun is not my responsibility", but "Its my fun to make you miserable"
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I feel like people overstate how bad the low tier killers are. Being the worst doesn't necessarily mean they're unplayable.
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Tunneling has nothing to do with empathy or respect. It involves trying to win a video game. It's an unrealistic expectation, to believe killers should purposely make bad game decisions for the sake of survivors, when there's absolutely zero reciprocation on the survivor side. And if people honestly think tunneling is ruining their gameplay experience, then they are being unrealistic.
And I threw in the 60/40 kill rate, because that forum member literally made an entire post to complain about the 60/40 rule, and complained about awful survivors feel now, and specifically mention that survivors used to have a higher escape rate. And all the talk in this thread regarding how it's "unnecessary" for killers to tunnel, all revolves around the fact that regardless of killers tunnel, they still have a 60% kill rate, and therefore it's "unnecessary" for killers to do things that survivors think is unfun, because a 60% kill rate is still in the killers' favor.
And I noticed you never said "I care about killers' fun when playing survivor. Because that's my entire point. Where are your hard rules you follow when you play survivor, that you do for the sake of killers' fun?????
Why should killers care at all about "empathy" and "kindness", when survivors clearly don't have a list of strategies they avoid doing out of empathy for killers?
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I dont stack meta as survivors and I play Solo 99% of the time, and thats enough, if killer can not kill me and my teammates finish Gens behind thats on killer's fault to make mistakes, or thats my fault to not give killer a free hook?
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We shouldn't punish tunneling. Simply because so many other things would have to be changed for that to be even possible.
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But tunneling makes a killer worse as they go up in mmr since they never learn how to properly play them. This makes it where they can never stop tunneling.
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Well in current survivor meta where you're just allowed to pre drop W with windows + exhaustion and generous maps.... Not much a killer can do if they want a chance at winning.
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No, that's not anywhere near enough compensation. Tunneling can often be a massive game advantage, and asking killers to avoid tunnelling is a huge thing to ask. BHVR revealed that for the vast majority of the players, being solo doesn't really affect kill rate. And not stacking meta doesn't mean much to me, as all the survivor perks I complain about are largely considered non-meta.
And if your attitude is that killers don't need to tunnel, because the game is pushed towards a 60% kill rate, then the same applies to survivors. Survivors don't need to ever try to flashlight save, or hook sabo, or excessively hide, or use voice communications specifically for game advantages... because they'll be near a 40% escape rate regardless of what they do. And therefore, survivors can easily avoid doing things that killers think is unfun, because they'll "have the same escape results" regardless of what they do.
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So your argument is that only killers should be allowed to play like it's a comp tournament.
Since the comp DbD scene is largely tunnel and camp vs gen rush, pre drop, run to comp corner.
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Where did I say only killers should be allowed to do that? It's a simple action and reaction. Survivors play with auto pilot so I compensate them by tunneling.
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Tunneling can often be a massive game advantage
Thank you for confirming how broken tunneling is. I close my case.
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I think you hit a nerve lol
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Im sorry but its just not true. Were just going to have to agree to disagree.
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I can hit with just a drawing.
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Generous maps?
Are there so few left that played near the end of the dark times?
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I just got basement proxied and tunnelled out of the game... again and while that is frustrating enough another thing that adds to it is that only one team mate had been hooked before me but the unhookers immediately abandon you or hide so even if the killer wasn't intending to tunnel (this one clearly was) I am the only target they can find.
If you have not had any hook states survivors, for the love of God try to take aggro off your team mates. If you lose someone at 4-5 gens you probably aren't getting out.
The tunnelling is really bad at present but team mates don't help the situation either
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I'm sorry what anti-tunnel still remains? DS was deleted (in practice, as you only get ~6m of distance), and Off The Record/Borrowed Time are mutually exclusive. That means if a Killer hits off-hook anyways the perk is denied.
Plus can I equip those perks for my teammates? That is more often the problem, is my 300hr friend or (even lower hour count) soloq teammate (because matchmaking is a joke) gets tunneled and I can't do anything about it.
When did the standard change from "don't tunnel at 5 gens against casuals" to "don't tunnel EVER"? I read C3's point as (more or less) sweat only against sweat. The attitude of "Killer's don't need to tunnel" is derived from the hard evidence provided by the 50 matches with 73% killrate on no tunnel/no slowdown Myers.
C3 also didn't need to explicitly state "Killer" because the picture clearly shows "People". Unless it's your stance that Killer players aren't 'people', then I think Killers were already covered in the post.
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Years of nerfs to killers and their perks have left them with few options to actually secure kills/wins.
There's a reason why the majority of DBD streamers are survivors, it's easier.
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People on this forum are acting like disliking your opponent getting an advantage is some shocking groundbreaking revelation.
Survivors are sodden they get killed and want that strategy removed. Thats it.
Survivors want killers to not to press theadvantages when they obtained them. Like not working that gen you used a bnp on...
Or worse, killers shouldnt be able to gain advantage in the first place.
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Oh yeah, bm-ing and calling names in post-match lobbies against an obviously nice playstyle with gradual 8-hooking before even trying to kill anyone are absolutely and utterly nonexistent. "Do your gens, be respectful and don't be a twat when leaving the trial" doesn't seem like something a lot of survivors even consider following, taking a nice playstyle for the killer's weakness. Do you really think I didn't notice the injured survivor going the other way, but took your oh so smart flashlight/fast vault bait? Nope, I chose letting that person have some more fun and play for longer. If there's only one injured survivor next to me or running into me, then yeah, I'm taking it, since it's a misplay on the survivors' side and I don't normally play killers able to go across the map within seconds to just leave the dude.
Same goes for bully squads with tons of flashlights who locker stun the killer not for the sake of a save or slowing the killer down in a chase (the latter's kinda mean, but not unacceptable), but for the sake of making the killer feel miserable and feeling better at their expense. Totally not something happening in this game.
So yeah, a lot of players don't really let me put a lot of faith in this community, whether it be unmotivated bm-ing or bullying of different sorts, or unmotivated tunneling. I had like 6 matches yesterday, against one absolutely obviously cheating huntress, two more killers were pretty suspicious, and overall all killers except for the cheater tunneled right away. Effective? Yeah, if you only want to score 4ks. Fun? Hell no.
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Oh yeah, bm-ing and calling names in post-match lobbies against an obviously nice playstyle with gradual 8-hooking before even trying to kill anyone are absolutely and utterly nonexistent.
The post I was responding to:
Most survivors don’t care if the strategies they do are unfun for killers, so why should killer care if the strategies they do are unfun for survivors?
Same goes for bully squads with tons of flashlights who locker stun the killer not for the sake of a save or slowing the killer down in a chase (the latter's kinda mean, but not unacceptable), but for the sake of making the killer feel miserable and feeling better at their expense. Totally not something happening in this game.
And how many complaints are there about bully squads, in comparison to the complaints about 'gens going too fast'?
Killers don't complain about bully squads, they complain about Sally Soloqueue not holding on to the gen until the killer gets a free hit, or Simon Sub10hours working on a gen with no perks, items or add-ons to speed it up.
If killers complained about bully squads as much as they did 'gen tunnelling', we'd have BHVR working on some kind of fix for it right now, with how attentive they've been to killer complaints lately. But for some reason, bully squads fly under the radar until it's time to 'but muh bully squads' on a thread complaining about tunnelling.
Which is extra aggravating because bully squads do actually need to get addressed.
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This happens when you make wincoditions pretty clear (kills and escapes) and put MMR on top - Meta by Daylight.
Genrush vs. Killrush. If you don't participate, you most likely get stomped. Doesn't sound very healthy, does it? If you want to change that you need to stop playing and take a long break. Sadly, but i fear there's no other way.
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Killers dont even want survivor to run away from Gen when they're coming. What are you up to?
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No.
We already have tons of proof that tunneling is the root cause here, not a reaction to anything.
When gen kick meta dragged out games for 30+ minutes killers tunneled more.
When survivors stop doing normal gameplay to throw snowballs during an event killers tunnel more.
When the devs delete gen rushing entirely during an LTM and give the killer free stealth, killers tunnel more.
Tunneling is base kit for killers, and only takes exactly one player to decide to play that way. The only response survivors have is to have high levels of coordination and gen rush, and neither of those is base kit in this game. It requires lots of perks, items, and most often voice comms.
If you want to play that way, that's your choice, but you aren't 'reacting' to anything. Tunneling is the cause here, not the effect.
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Run DS and OTR. DS is only as good as you are, you use it after you got downed in a deadzone you get those 6 meters, you use it after you got downed in Garden of Joy main building the killer loses the game for tunneling you.
OTR might be countered by the killer hitting you off the hook but that doesn't happen as often as OTR deniers claim.
You might not escape anyway but with those perks you have good chances your team gets a 3 man escape which should be enough.
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100% tunnelling is the cause here and it is 100% a conscious choice by the player to play like that.
A gen doesn't even have to have popped these days and some will hard tunnel out a player.
I don't even know how this is fun personally as the everyone else just wants to go next and they don't even get a real match as they took the cheap easy way out and everyone just decides to go next. I don't know how someone can think they actually won by doing this?
Crazy thing is, the killers I verse who play for max hooks almost always win anyway.
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If I remember correctly, we sometimes do have someone from BHVR respond to complaints about bully squads....
Unfortunately, the official responses are usually something like "it's fine because they aren't repairing generators", or "it's fine because I only see really good bully SWFs like once a month", or "it's fine because I like it when survivors are being overly altruistic".
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are any of these arguments wrong tho? the killer equivalent to a bully squad would be insidious camping a basement or something. not strong or efficient in any way, but designed to be miserable for one person
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They just need to make unhooked survivor invisible and without collision until they perform a conspicuous action. Survivor in this state cannot see totems, killer, or other survivors.
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I don't think insidious camping is the killer equivalent to a bully squad, because it's still progressing the game, and the killer is using insidious with the intent of wanting to kill more survivors in the basement. The killer equivalent to a bully squad would be doing something like killing 2 survivors, then purposely slugging the last 2 survivors, letting one of them wiggle off their shoulder, then slugging them again, then letting one of them wiggle off their shoulder, and repeat. The killer in this scenario is clearly not trying to progress the game at all, and is purposely extending the game, with the primary goal of bullying the survivors.
Because the obnoxious thing about bully squads, is they are purposely extending the game so they can bully the killer for a longer time. If a SWF keeps hitting a killer with flashlight saves or flashbang saves, but the other survivors are trying to repair generators, then it's not a bully SWF even though what they are doing is unfun for the killer. A SWF only becomes a bully SWF when they are purposely delaying the game from progressing, because they want to spend more time doing things they know are unfun for the killer.
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Nah its a definitely an effect. Some people decide to play nice but then when they get so many games in a row where they play nice but its just 5 gens in 5 minutes.... That WILL cause some people to start tunneling or playing some super strong killers. It's a PVP game there WILL be cause and effects from both sides. Thinking "well its always there no matter what" is just not logical.
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I hardly ever get tunnelled so I'm doing something right 👍
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Bruh tunneling just means your not good at the game that's it good killers don't have to tunnel cause they are actually good at killer.
Bnps are really that great anymore .
The game will be in a healthier place with mmr if they nerf tunneling back to how it was before d/s when you could use these things at the end of a match. It held survivors hands now tunneling is holding yours. That's why when killers get to an mmr where they cant tunnel anymore they start complaining about perks like sprint bust and lythe because they really just suck at the game and got there hand held and now they realize they suck.
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The difference in these two situations you described though are player agency. The scenario you outlined gives the survivors no options other than to just sit on the floor and bleed out for 4 minutes, it doesn't matter how long they run the killer in this scenario as there's no legitimate way to progress the game since the other survivor is also on the floor.
Even in a scenario with a full on bully squad that does not intend on progressing the game through doing their objective, the killer player still has agency, still has counterplay options, and can still progress the game forward for themselves. They can slug, they can play around the flashlights / sabo plays, they hook, camp, tunnel, etc.
This is not a fair comparison IMO.
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I appreciate your replies C3Tooth, you've made a lot of good points 💪
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I don't think people should be required to run 2 perks, 1 of which is paid DLC only, in order to not hate their existence.
To be clear when I say 'hit off hook' I don't mean the milisecond of coming off hook, I mean anytime where Basekit BT would still be in effect. That is my main problem, is that anti-tunnel Endurance shouldn't Deep Wound players, and players with anti-tunnel Endurance shouldn't be able to bodyblock for teammates. Allow the Killer to walk through players while that timer is ticking down, have Endurance not hinder you, and I'd say OTR is fine.
Also like I said previously, how can I forcefully equip perks on my teammates? That is the largest problem, is that when my teammates are weaker than me, and I can't put DS as all 4 of their perk slots so the other 2 Survs and I can actually play the game.
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In the scenario I'm suggesting, the killer is purposely forcing survivors to wiggle off their shoulder, so they can lose yet another chase. If a killer just lets survivors bleed out on the ground, that isn't bullying, because there are often situations where the killer can't reliably hook all the slugged survivors.
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I really do feel like they need to add Decisive Strike as a basekit ability like they did with basekit borrowed time. Do it half the time or something because it really is necessary IMO...tunneling has reached a new all time high and people are getting tunneled at 5-4 gens literally every single game... It especially ruins the solo q experience which ALREADY is absolutely miserable...no need to make it even worse. Basekit DS would keep the killers from tunneling and if they do they will get hit with DS 100%.
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