Let's compare newest killer vs survivor perks, shall we?
First, survivor ones:
Now lets see ups and downs of Invocation: Weaving Spiders:
- Upside: You've progressed all generators by +10% (9 seconds of gen time) (downside: doesn't work if they are blocked) (noteworthy information: your team probably already done ~2 gens at this point)
- Downside: Go to the basement (takes time), unsafe place
- Downside: Spend 2 minutes in said unsafe place, you cannot unhook someone, do totem, do gen, basically for those 2+ minutes game is 3v1
- Downside: When you use this perk it emits loud sounds potentially notifying killers to go to said unsafe place
- Downside: It looses progress when you stop doing invocation (just like healing someone with sloppy)
- Downside: You are broken for rest of the trial
Now let's see ups and downs of Light-Footed:
- Upside: Your footsteps are quiet
- Downside: You have to be healthy (because it would be too OP if your footsteps would be quiet if you are playing ass Jeff and moaning EUOGH whole time)
- Downside: It has a cooldown of 20 seconds after rush actions (because it would be too OP if your footsteps would be quiet when you jump through a window and leave scratchmarks everywhere)
Then, killer ones:
Now lets see ups and downs of Unforeseen:
- Upside: You are undetectable
- Upside: Your terror is transformed to a gen
- Upside: When survivors adapt to this perk later in the trial they have to be non-stop cautious of where you are, as you can just jump-scare them.
- Downside: You have to kick the gen which takes a lot of time (1.8 seconds)
- Downside: It has enormous cooldown of 30 seconds (it works for 30 seconds also)
Now lets see ups and downs of Ultimate Weapon:
- Upside: You have like, a half of Doctor power
- Upside: For unknown reason, all revealed survivors also have Blindness
- Downside: You have to open the locker which takes a lot of time (2.34 seconds)
- Downside: This perk also has enormous cooldown of 30 seconds (it also works for 30 seconds)
Someone might say that one side has better perks, but idk, what do you think? :)
Comments
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Perks are also a good indicator where the destiny is heading towards. Gonna be a lot of fun playing survivor in 2024.
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The game is killer biased and the true win rate for solo queue is probably around 35% once we're done cherry-picking data by exempting suicides and DCs which happen around 1/5 games. The developers are either scared of putting out anything decent for survivors due to previous backlash by killers, or they simply enjoy a one-sided game. I've seen this being argued as a positive since it's asymmetrical, yet it seems disregarded that this is first and foremost a PvP game. It's incredibly boring to be handed victories because I picked one side, not because I did anything to deserve it.
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Kinda bad faith to pick the survivors worst perks and killers best perks in each release, but whatever.
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So we take a couple new perks and compare them? Why? I could go to other chapters, do the exact same thing and show super bad killer perks and really good survivor perks to show the exact opposite point. Comparing them like this doesn’t make any sense. Some chapters have good killer perks and some have good survivor ones.
It makes more sense to look at game balance on the large scale, not like this.
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Otz has 10k+ hours and could only achieve a 40% win rate during his solo queue experiement. No one with any amount of common sense believes the real escape rate is 40%. If a player with that experience can only escape 40% of the time then what does that mean for ordinary players? Statistics are just a massive effort by them to gaslight us into believing the game is fair. This is a PVP game like you said. The idea that one side should be stronger in the average match is just ridiculous. I think one day they will move on from this philosophy but who knows how long it will take.
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I know it's blindingly obvious to everyone here that you're picking and choosing the best examples for your one-sided argument.
How about this?
"Whenever a survivor fails a skill check" translates to "this perk does not function at all beyond day 1 survivors." Then, IF you can get survivors to fail TEN skill checks, its still barely even competitive with standard regression perks.
Hmm, how about Singularity? Gosh what a game changer it is that you can SLIGHTLY slow survivors who are standing directly on top of a survivor you just downed. Ooh, or you can exhaust a survivor who you currently aren't in a chase with.
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Then show me some good survivor perks in newest chapters, Made for This is already nerfed.
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What is this cherry picking?
I can list also top 3 weak recent perks for killer and compare them to something like Champ of Light or Buckle Up + For the People combo.
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"Newest Chapters" makes no sense and is not listening to what I said. I said the game balance in the large scale. Whether that is recent/newest chapters or not is completely irrelevant. If you had a super weak killer that got buff, after buff, after buff, then by your standards that would be bad because hes got nothing but buffs in all the recent stuff. However it wouldn't be bad because he needed that stuff since he was so weak. So looking at balance in the way you are doesn't work for overall balance.
Both sides have had good and bad perks. If you're trying to imply that killers overall have been given better perks I vehemently disagree on that and we can go into detail on that if you'd like.
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Cherrypicking is indeed the wrong way to go about it. I mean, the Killer-Perks from the past 3 Chapters are better than the Survivor-Perks, this is for sure and should not be debateable. But picking just a few examples does not really help that.
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The issue is, there are not super good survivor perks. I just checked the last 5 chapters:
All of them range from garbage to mediocre. MfT was the only strong perk and it is gone now (i am happy with this change, dont get me wrong).
BHVR is so scared of actually realeasing strong perks (and keept it that way) for survivors since ages because they always fear the killer backlash it seems.
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See, the Survivor perks are just straight up useless.
This at least works on one Killer.
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Looking at the last 5 chapters I see 4 good survivor perks and 3 killer ones. Maybe a flex perk in either direction for both sides depending how flexible you want to be on "good". So I don't think your point holds up. However, as I said earlier, even if either side did have more recently, it is irrelevant. What matters is balance on the broad scale. Would it be fair for me to complain if hypothetically killer got zero good perks in the last few chapters if prior to that they got multiple game swinging perks? No, that would be silly of me. What matters is where they're at in the broad spectrum of the game, not an isolated you get one cookie, I get one cookie, repeat.
This also isn't even factoring in "fun" perks for either side which should honestly be one of the biggest factors as well. I think both sides got multiple fun perks.
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If you cherry pick perks then yeah it looks like killers got the better deal. You can do the same for survivors by comparing Wicked and Troubleshooter to Alien Instinct and Undone.
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strength in shadows is right there hello? some say wicked is broken, also. we have champion of light, lightfooted is good if you want to go for saves. not the best perk but people like chem trap a lot, we have dramaturgy and of course background player.
listing those in case you actually want to hear about it. sorry if you are only trying to build a narrative and this isn't helping with that.
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If we want to compare similar releases I think we should do Alan and Chucky (imo its still a little early to tell Unknown and Sable)
Alan's perks are absolutely dog without a doubt. Illumination is just not worth the perk slot, and should reveal A LOT more than just g.ens and chests. Deadline is fun.. and kind of works with Hyperfocus? Yeah nah its basically worthless. Champion of Light is basically the only redeeming perk, being pretty decent as it can help you get out of certain situations where the killer is trying to zone you.
Now we have Chucky. Two Can Play has a pretty nice effect, only problem with it is that its a hex perk. Batteries Included is a very decent and is pretty versatile with other things that provide haste. Trapper running Coffee Grounds and Batteries Included makes him move 17.5% faster (or 5.3m/s) for 5 seconds after setting a trap. Finally we have Friends till the End which is one of the strongest killer perks in the game atm.
Chucky is without a doubt the winner here, and its not even close. This isnt cherry picking either, these are the 2 most recent characters (one of the main points of this post) not counting All Things Wicked.
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You forgot Renato who has a pretty good perk with Background Player.
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if we are talking about decent/good/strong perks we had background player rework, plot twist, dramaturgy, chemical trap, old mft, scavenger, troubleshooter, champion of the light strenght in the shadows, wicked, buckle up rework also the nerfed mft (good anti tunnel) (all of them are good perks, not being the most OP thing in the world is not the same as being bad)
from the killer side, if we are talking about good/strong perks we had nowhere to hide... ultimate weapon... unforeseen... well, that´s it, maybe friends till the end but it only works on 2 or 3 killers 💁♂️
again it´s not a competition, i´m literally just pointing facts
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You are absolutly correct Sir. Background player is indeed objectivly speaking a good survivor perk BUT...
My issue with Background player is not oppressive nature, its just annoying and insanly stupid. It has the FTP+BU feel to it. Just a perk to piss off killer. As survivor i dont run it much since i think it is more a time waster, but the existance alone of this trash perk should not be allowed.
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Strength in Shadows is pretty darn good if you build for it with something like Botany Knowledge. Makes basement work like a predictable version of old CoH with some appropriate risk attached, so manages to avoid being obnoxiously overpowered.
Wicked is also a decent anti-tunnel perk because it gives you the killers aura for 20s off any hook, allowing you to assess if you can heal, or need to run. The 20s aura also gives you wall hacks when tunnelled, making it much easier to win mind games against the killer for it's duration.
Lucky Star is underrated and a very decent global info perk on a short cooldown, and can be used to get auras pretty much whenever you want.
Champion of Light makes breaking any pallet or vaulting windows dangerous for killer, and every proc is basically like having an extra sprint burst between loops.
Even in this thread, Light-Footed is actually pretty decent with Background Player. It allows you to run get in to position out of line of sight, without risk of your foot steps being heard by the killer.
Made For This is still perfectly viable with Dead Hard and Off the Record. You just can't get the effect by being totally brain dead anymore.
There are quite a few good perks in the recent chapters. Or is your definition of a "Good" perk something that totally redefines the meta and creates huge glaring differences in survival rates based on how many survivors run it or not?
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Undone doesn't really work all that well on Doctor because the perk has a 60 second cooldown as well.
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only old mft qualified to be a good perk apparently and since no perk (hopefully) will reach that level of atrociousness there will not be a good perk release anymore :(
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Idk wicked has been slotted into my builds quite regularly now. Being able to see if the killer is b-lining back to the hook is nice to know. Also the beignet of garenteed self hooks in basement has made for a few clutch plays for me over the past few days. While it’s not the strongest perk ever it’s defiantly a welcomed addition for me.
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This seems rather cherry picked, using the same chapters you could have picked Strength in Shadows and Chem Trap for survivors and Undone and Alien Instinct for killer.
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Til it begins building up stacks or until it can be triggered again?
One is an inconvenience and the other isn't a big deal
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I think both, I'm not sure.
Most of the time this perk is a 60 second cooldown for an extra 3% regression and 3 seconds of generator blocking. You're better off throwing on another skill check perk on Doc instead of Undone.
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sable has better perks then the unkown so i dont know what your yapping about
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If we look at this chapter alone,
Survivors got 2 solid perks (Strength in Shadows and Wicked) and 1 bad one.
Killers got 1 solid perk (Unforeseen) and 2 bad ones (Unbound and Undone).
Clearly this means survivors only ever get the better perks /s.
The truth is some chapters are a miss for survivors and some chapters are a miss for killers.
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try blight with soul chemical+alchemist ring. unnerving presence+undone+overcharge+hex:lullaby.
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Bruh UW isn't even new, you just slapped the best killer perk on an image. Extremely disingenuous post. Unknown didn't even come with good perks.
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You're right that the chosen examples are cherry picked but the fact one of your counterexamples is a combination of 2 perks, both of which are years old, does kinda prove the overall point that it's hard to bring to mind a decent, recent Survivor perk
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Buckle Up got changed recently so it is technicaly new perk because it has new function. I could give better examples, but none of them are OP meta perks but they are still fine / okay perks.
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Given that the killer only gets 4 perks and the survivors get 16? Yeah, it does make sense for the killer to have better perks.
But, my favorite part? You ignored the 2 GOOD perks from the newest survivor, and the 2 BAD perks from the newest killer to fit your narrative.
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It’s still an old perk. It was only changed during the META shake up because it was so bad. And without FTP it isn’t good. So describing it as a ‘new perk’ is like saying CoH is a new perk because it too was changed. And with examples like that survivors still have much weaker ‘new perks’ than killers, validating OP’s point.
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Yeah, that's the idea of impossible skill check Doc
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Your comment about 40% is displaying a lack of understanding of how MMR works. The devs are aiming for a 40% win rate once MMR is settled for survivors. Otz escaping 40% and players at different skill levels having a 40% escape rate is completely consistent with what would be expected at a 40% win rate.
I'm not saying solo survivor is a great experience by this at all; it's actually pretty nasty. However, the reason for that is because hard tunneling is so pronounced in comparison to any other time I played DbD. Just in my most recent run of eight games, I had Killers hard tunnel in five and one Killer whose entire 'strategy' was just to down and then bleed out one survivor without hooking (it was a 3E but that was due to the second survivor having Unbreakable). So, there was 1 person whose entire goal was to intentionally make people's games miserable and five where the Killers unintentionally made the game miserable for at least one survivor.
This is now more of a norm whereas it was an occasional nuisance in the past. That's what making survivor miserable; not the 40% win rate.
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Killers have always gotten much better perks, generally with no downsides (Ultimate Weapon). Some perks are also game changing whereas survivors do not.
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The stats are just fabrication for marketing. The best survivors in the game can't even do as well as the proclaimed stats.
We can't believe the stats as they seem so far from reality.
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Isn't that expected though? Killer perks get 35 chances to be useful, Survivor perks get 1.
By their very nature you have to be incredibly careful not to make an overly strong survivor perk, because any time Survivors get a really strong perk, everyone runs it. In a asym like DBD there would be far more need for balance on survivor perks than killer perks, otherwise you get meta's where everyone is literally just running the same perks all the time. Decisive Strike, Dead Hard, Borrowed Time, Made For This, Saboteur, etc, etc.
For killer perks, there are plenty of examples of perks only really useful on 1 or 2 killers, and otherwise kinda sucks on everyone else. E.g. Thanataphobia (Legion/Plague), Merciless Storm and Huntress Lullaby (Doctor), Darkness Revealed (Dredge/Huntress), Make Your Choice (Hag/Dredge).
This just seems inevitable to me that Survivors will trend towards using the same perks all the time if there are any standout stronger perks. Personally I would say the current meta has a pretty decent spread of perks.
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I do not think that it's a good perk in any way shape or form.
It shows BHVR is absolutely terrified of the backlash of making a good Survivor perk. I don't think any of the Killer perks are great either, but UW is and still hasn't been adjusted.
The Invocation is actually the worst perk they've released.
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Oh I agree Invocation is bad in current state. The point I was challenging you on is that "Suvivor perks are just straight up useless. This perk at least works for 1 killer".
As we've seen plenty of times and in the examples that I've cited, if you make a survivor perk too strong, everyone runs it, because all survivors are the same... this means meta redefining perks are something you naturally have to be more careful about on Survivor, so this naturally leads to a more conservative approach for Survivor.
Killer perks can afford to be bad on most of the cast, and still be a worthwhile addition to the game, by virtue of the fact that 1 of the killers may synergise with it.
It's a common part of game development psychology. If possible you want to avoid nerfing things, because humans react 5 times stronger to losing something than gaining something. Gaining $10 is much less a big deal than losing $10.
We see this with the reaction to MFT. That perk was overpowered, and needed to be nerfed. People got really upset about it, even though it's still viable, and it ran rampant appearing in almost every game on 2-4 survivors from June 2nd to November 2nd, that's 5 months.
Ultimate Weapon came out August 30th, and wasn't picked up immediately by Killers, there wasn't much buzz around it. It took a couple of weeks for people and content creators to pick it up, and it still isn't even that common even today.
We're 6 and half months from it's release, and was earmarked to be looked at in the December 2023 roadmap, about 4 months after release, and it was scheduled for April-June after the bloodweb changes.
The bloodweb has had minor improvements, I dunno if there are more planned, but it looks to me like BHVR are running to or maybe even slightly ahead of schedule.
However the point I'm making, is MFT was literally everywhere, to the point in couldn't be ignored. UW is a problem IMO, but is isn't anywhere near as common as MFT was, and that's because it is only really busted on certain Killers... all of this seems very reasonable to me, and expected.
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Obviously it's been pointed out that this is extremely cherry-picked, but the part that kills me is that your example of a second supposedly bad survivor perk, Light-Footed, is honestly really good.
I went and double-checked on the wiki, and of the past ten survivors (not chapters, we're counting the Lyra twins and Ada + Rebecca separately here), nine of them have had at least one consistently good perk each-- and the exception, Vittorio, does have a good perk, there's just more inconsistency baked into it compared to the others. I'll elaborate if desired but I didn't want this one message to be a wordwall.
For the record, I don't know that I'd say the same for the past ten killers, but I also wouldn't make any judgements on which side is being "favoured" based on that information either. I am of the opinion that both sides have pretty good perk variety at the moment, and both have a fairly steady stream of at least some good or interesting perks coming in with new releases.
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UW isn't as common because Killers just stack regression instead.
Survivors flocked to MFT because it was a good perk and there's really not many of those that help with getting tunneled.
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I said all that... and that's what you focus on?
OK well, to counter that point, MFT, just like DS and DH, did a lot more than just helping against being tunneled didn't it?
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Yeah, I'm at work I can't type out a two page response no matter how much I like your post lol
Yes, it did. Other than screwing over some Killers more than others, if there were a way to make it equivalent for those Killers, I'd bring it back, especially since 3% Haste isn't a big deal on Killers now apparently.
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These are the most cherry picked perk selections possible tbh. Very disingenuous. BHVR has done good with perks on both sides, they just haven’t made any OP ones so people are unhappy.
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Annnnnd that's me jumping to conclusions... my bad dude, allow me to apologise, made the mistake of inferring intent from text. 😒
Hmmm... I wonder who you could be referring to... 😆
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Ay no worries, no harm no foul. I'm certainly guilty of the same.
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You're right about the Survivor perks you mentioned (although Light-Footed has surprising utility in indoor maps and blinds at pallets (Killer can't hear your footsteps to follow you after a blind) and UW.
But Unforeseen is meh at best.
It takes away 1/8 regression events for no additional slowdown. If you don't manage to get a sneak attack because of it you just wasted precious regression that might be needed down the line, especially if you play one of the weaker/M1 Killers that kinda need slowdown in some form.
Unless in an indoor map, it's difficult for most Killers to not be seen coming regardless of Terror Radius (even less so against SWF) it requires awareness sure but only newcomers will be fazed by it.
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Hello? Boon: Dark Theory?
I wondered why that didn’t take off like MfT.
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