Is it time for a basekit DS ?
With all the tunneling going on, and the basekit BT is litterly useless, how about some kind of a basekit DS ?
- The whole idea is that the killer waste so much time tunneling that it becomes ineffictive, inciting them to chase someone else.
Also a buff of the original DS perk would be a good idea, while we are at it.
Comments
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Why don't you just go ahead and ask for a rule where once a killer hooks you, they have to run to the other side of the level and if they don't get there in time, you get all your health states back?
Or how about you make it so that you have to rotate through all the survivors? Then you can bodyblock, w-key to the other side of the board.
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I think it's a good idea. Anti-tunneling perks shouldn't be locked behind a paywall when it's a core part of the game that survivors have to deal with.
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There are free ways to deal with it. They are called looping, bodyblocking, dropping pallets, w-keying across the board because bloddlust stinks, etc etc etc
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So essentially, don't get hit, don't end up in a dead zone, rely on teammates and run away.
None of these are reliable ways to not get tunneled. If you're not near a good loop when you get unhooked you go down again. You have no control over dead zones created by teammates. Hoping your teammates can cover for you is inconsistent as best. Running away doesn't help much when most of the roster have strong anti-loop/ mobility options. You can't even rely on the burst from getting hit off hook as killers can just body block you and count to ten.
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Not tunneling is nowere near the same thing as being forced to run to the other end of the map, that is just a wierd comparrison.
As it is now, killer just either hits the unhooked survivor, or follow them for the time it takes for the BT basekit to run out, where a basekit DS might actually makes it more worth for the killer to chase someone else.
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You are always near a good loop - show me a hook on that map not near a decent loop within 10 seconds plus the burst of speed. The maps are now covered in pallets. If the killer is loaded with anti-loop then they have no other good perks which is an advantage for you.
They've given you DS. They've given you an anti-camp mechanic. They've given you pallets every 40 meters. When will it be time for survivors to just improve their skills rather than rely on more base perks gratis from BVHR?
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It's not a weird comparison at all. It's just a sarcastic version of what survivors ask for day in day out for tunneling which is absolutely counterable with about a half dozen things like looping already implemented.
It's time for survivors to up their skills rather than ask for more free perks.
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How do you counter a killer that follows you after an unhook? you cant always get to a pallet or a vault, and even if you do, that might not be enough. I would love to see you counter a tunneling Huntress, Billy, Blight, Nurse ect.
If it was that easy, do you think there would be that ammount of complaints over it as there are?
And if you think im "just another survivor main that wants free wins" i suggest you check out my comment history , for example in this thread here - https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/407682/delete-this-pain-res-grim-dms-pop-meta
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The slippery slope of making perks basekit to account for playstyles people find unfun despite being optimal continues, I see.
Huntress, Blight and Nurse are all entirely unaffected by DS, and Billy is only barely affected. Your suggestion wouldn't actually do anything to address those killers tunneling, because DS doesn't prevent them from tunneling now.
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How would they be unaffected by DS?
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ds does not prevent tunneling on any killer. you cant prevent tunneling without majorly reworking the who hooking system only try to make it not as effective
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Base kit DS? That would be a terrible idea, and it wouldn't fix the problem.
EVERY survivor having an artificial third hook state? That would be busted, straight up.
I hate being the first out because I looped the killer first and he tunneled me off hook as much as anyone else, but no amount of DS or BT is going to stop someone from forcing you out if they really want to. I have seen people bring as MANY anti-tunnel perks as possible and still be tunneled or camped out of the game first.
I mean even if you had DS, say you hit it and they still chase you down and hook you, then what? You still got tunneled out of the game, it didn't change anything really.
Buffing it wouldn't fix the problem either, because what can you do really? Extend the stun duration? Even if you do, that killer now knows you no longer have DS and can just tunnel you out of the game anyways if they find you again.
Now, that being said, I DO think DS should be a general bloodweb perk and NOT be locked behind prestiging a DLC survivor, but DBD is notorious for having meta perks locked behind DLC at this point.
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Do you not use DS now? The four of them close distance so quickly that the 3s stun is entirely neglibible. For Nurse especially it's such a non-inconvenience that she recieves basically no punishment for tunneling regardless of perks. And those four aren't even the best tunnelers the game has - Wesker, Deathslinger and Bubba come to mind when I'm looking for a killer adept at off hook tunneling.
Agreed, but I was giving specific response to the killers that Unknown2765 had named.
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I'd prefer they just made DS a general perk and not behind a pay wall and then increase it to 4 or 5 seconds. Or keep it 3 and give something like a 5-7% haste for a short time. But if they do go the base kit route then I would suggest:
- 3 second DS is base kit. Using DS increases the time to 5 seconds. Both act the same as now with a 60 second timer that ends with conspicuous actions and is disabled in end game.
- For the first 20ish seconds of being unhooked you have no collision to prevent body blocking.
- If another survivor is picked up then the DS deactivates early. Reason I say picked up and not hooked is so the survivor with DS can't flashlight save and then still be invincible. If another survivor is going to be hooked then you weren't tunnelled.
- Give killers a reason to not tunnel. Something small such as an extra 3-5% regression on the next gen kick if you don't hook the same survivor consecutively.
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It’s honestly a good idea imo you solve a tunneling issue while freeing up a perk slot. It would be a Fair change.
The only reason anyone disapproves of a basekit DS is that it wouldn’t allow killers to quickly kill a guy anymore. Which is the only argument there is to not have it.
obviously you can’t remove tunneling it’s literally impossible unless you can just be invisible which we know BHVR won’t do. So the only way to combat tunneling is to extend it to the point that you escape or make you very difficult to track.
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I personally think the best thing they could do at the moment is just remove collision with the unhooked Survivor while they have the Endurance effect.
- Dont have to worry about being bodyblocked.
- You should be able to make far more distance.
- Depending on the situation you can phase through the Killer to disorient them and make it harder to hit you.
- Duration can even be extended with perks as well.
Anti-tunnel perks can be buffed as well.
- Decisive Strike can provide a 150% movement speed increase for 2/3/4 seconds after being stunned to help make it more effective against tunneling but not make the stun duration long enough for it to be "weaponized."
- Off The Record can provide a lingering effect where other Survivors heal you 50/75/100% faster after being unhooked, this way teammates can heal you and make you a harder target to tunnel via more health states. (Likewise, they can also return the lingering effect that removes Aura Reading and Grunts of Pain)
- Borrow Time and Babysitter can receive further increased Haste effects to let the Survivor gain more distance.
- Second Wind can heal a Survivor to healthy even when in Deep Wounds. The healing requirement can be easier to proc.
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The argument of not having DS because it doesn’t solve it is stupid. Tunneling is impossible to solve but not impossible to alleviate.
a basekit DS wouldn’t stop the killer from tunneling but it would allow a survivor to extend the chase significantly. Costing the killer who is tunneling a lot of time for generators to be done punishing them for going for one guy and potentially if you’re a good enough survivor to even escape if you extend the chase long enough.
a basekit DS would be a fair change it’s simple if you don’t want to waste so much time going for One guy then don’t go for that one guy
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The only reason anyone disapproves of a basekit DS is that it wouldn’t allow killers to quickly kill a guy anymore. Which is the only argument there is to not have it.
Basekit DS wouldn't actually work against the top half of the roster by power. Sure, against a tunneling trapper you'd get two actual chases in off hook. But you wouldn't against Nurse, Blight, Wesker, Spirit, etc etc etc
And weakening already weak killers only encourages the playerbase to move to the stronger areas of the roster. Last I heard, the playerbase doesn't like only playing against Blights and Nurses.
There. An argument that isn't the pre-arranged strawman you had set up for some reason.
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Yes yes of course, everyone else is stupid and wrong, you are of course 100% right and nobody else can see it!
By all means sure, make DS basekit and watch how many killers down you and just slug out the wait time (they already do this to counter DS), and even if you have unbreakable you're not getting your DS back after those 60 seconds so ggs, they will just down you again then rehook.
Making DS basekit literally solves nothing. It does not alleviate, nor does it solve, the tunneling issues. If someone wants to tunnel you out of the game they will, even if its the ONLY kill they get the entire match.
It might get you a win or two in low MMR lobbies or against noobs where players don't know about DS/how to counter it, but experienced killers will just wait out the down for potential DS and proxy camp if they have reason to, making unbreakable risky too.
This would also embolden strong SWF and bully squads, as now they don't have to use up a perk slot to chain/trade DS hits. If they have it base kit they can bring some other strong perk and become absolute monsters, it would be so insanely unfair for killers to have to put up with free DS chains every match.
These guys are on the right track.
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^This
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You act as if because it doesn’t affect those specific killers means it shouldn’t happen
but you’re just telling me those killers that you mentioned have a obvious issue. If a Basekit DS wouldn’t work on them
the top roster of killers are unfair in someway which allows them to be at the top. So don’t bring them up because if nothing would work those killers you mentioned then their obviously unbalanced and should probably be nerfed accordingly
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And in doing so the survivor who is getting tunneled would have probably had a fun chase because it lasted for so long. Like I said you can alleviate but not solve. As a survivor you can at least feel good knowing it took the killer that long to get you.
You are going through gymnastic hoops in you’re head to make it sound bad when you literally proved nothing but made it sound like you might be a toxic killer who would do the things you said just to kill one guy
theres plenty of tools as a survivor to prevent the killer from getting you. It would become a new meta to have a unbreakable or something on to help with slugging but even then if you’re good enough you can extend tunneling chases to a point where majority of the generators are done and you’re team can at least escape.
noob killers are just noob killers they’ll get better eventually and should not be accounted for, while the experienced killers have to slug and wait that still wastes their time nonetheless which comes right back to Alleviate but not solve because it’s impossible to solve
”does not solve” - yeah I said that
“does not alleviate” - yeah it does because it makes tunneling take a hell of a lot longer.
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If so, basekit Decisive Strike should have the skill check, while the existing perk (on top of its new effect(s)) should remove the skill check.
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Notice how you've only used Ad hominem and made wild assumptions about what side I play and how I play it.
I don't play meta perks as killer because they're boring, and I always give the last guy hatch as long as the team is not being disrespectful towards me. Sometimes I even farm BPs as ghostface to give people a chill easy match after a long day of stressful games. But that's besides the fact I rarely play killer anymore, I mostly do solo or duo Q. You don't know anything about me.
"You are going through gymnastic hoops" No, I literally told you what the counterplay for basekit DS would be from the perspective of killer mains, because I used to be into playing that side of the game a lot before I got bored, and you have not given me a single logistic rebuttal as to why killers wouldn't do this. Players who are tunneling are already committing to losing 5 gens for 1 kill, so tell me why they wouldn't just slug and wait out a basekit DS or unbreakable, or even just proxy camp for saves while you recover from bleeding out.
I pointed out that if a killer eats a DS, even if the stun duration is longer, they know you can't do it again and are more likely to commit to the only kill they're going to get all match. Crickets.
I pointed out how already good players could abuse a base kit DS to become absolute monsters and once again, crickets.
"the survivor who is getting tunneled would have probably had a fun chase because it lasted for so long" good players can already do this without DS, and bad players can't do this even with DS. It is quite literally a skill issue. If someone gets unhooked and still has a short chase that ends with them being rehooked, congrats basekit DS has once again not made up for a lack of skill in loops or chases or alleviated any tunneling. In some cases you're screwed either way because your team went for a wildly unsafe unhook in a tile with no resources or unsafe loops, it's a coin toss either way.
"you can extend tunneling chases to a point where majority of the generators are done" you can already do this without DS, basekit DS would be monstrous in the hands of already good players. In fact if you're being tunneled you SHOULD be trying to do this for your team, use the killers tunnel vision to your advantage to get your team out.
Since you seem to have forgotten, here is what you said, word for word.
"It’s honestly a good idea imo you solve a tunneling issue while freeing up a perk slot."
Notice how you were the first one to use the word "solve" here, and not me. But then you jump on my ass for using it, and switched to using "alleviate" instead.
"it makes tunneling take a hell of a lot longer" an extra 3 seconds is nothing most of the time, if you are lucky and get dropped by a strong tile or shack with god pallet, but its entirely dependent on the game state. If the map is mostly resource dry, and its on a map with a lot of unsafe loops, it's not helping in any meaningful way. Even if you bumped the stun time to 6 or 7s this only exacerbates what I've said before, where killers who are committed to tunneling will slug and wait to avoid, and good survivors will chain DS stuns to trade for health states and make the game infuriating for killers.
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Bro I literally don’t care if you’re the nicest killer who gives hatch, doesn’t use meta perks, and teabags with people as Ghostface. Your take on this subject is just bad plain and simple. while yes I said “solve” I didn’t think of it as an absolute and didn’t entirely think it mattered lol. Look at the anti-face camp it didn't entirely solve because some killers can still face Camp but it but alleviated it for most of the cast but then again face camping is a lot more simple then tunneling which is more complex
saying it shouldn’t happen because the person using a basekit DS would just go down again is dumb. While the game is obviously not in a survivors favor when in a chase it’s also not as simple as just going down again when using DS because it takes time to down survivors.
Also I would expect basekit DS to be slightly different than current DS. Regardless taking everything at face value instead of thinking of what it could mean for the survivors, it would just mean tunneling would be much more difficult to do regardless of skill of the survivor it doesn’t solve it but it would give the tunneled survivor a chance to play the game lol.
tunneling is a complex issue that has no fix to it because tunneling is just chasing the same survivor and chasing is a integral part of the game. Like I also said it’s not like you can turn invisible to the killer so a tunneling killer will always try to find you and chase you. So a basekit DS wouldn’t solve it because nothing can solve Tunneling but it would help alleviate it by extending chases and giving the survivor a chance.
Also as a side note it’s very difficult to “abuse” DS how does abusing it even work you can’t heal or do gens so you’re just wasting time as a survivor just for a chance to fudge over the killer which since it would be basekit the killer should know you have it. So another bad take thinking you can abuse it the killer WILL slug and that’s where all of the things you’re saying would happen if the survivors try to troll themselves basically.
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I guess pallets have no place in the game aswell?? Nurse and Knight dont care about them. Or loops?
Doc can even turn those into hes advantage.
This whole argument that something should not be in the game, because it dosnt work with all killers is kinda dumb.
Distortion is useless against more killers.
Sprint burst is useless against more killers.
Hope is useless against more killers.
And there are probably more.
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The lack of consideration for how a change like this would affect the game is so insane it's not even worth responding to in depth anymore. It would either have little to no effect since many killer powers stomp DS as it is, or the top killers like Huntress, Nurse, Blight, ect, who can easily counter DS with traversal and range, would need to be reworked so they're not "unfair" as you claim they are.
That's not even mentioning how survivors who trade blows could avoid hooks, and then take hooks risk free in end game while others are on exit gates, because if the killer tunnels them off hook their DS timer is half the time of the exit gate timer. With the buffed stun duration? Yeah, good luck getting anyone out in end game at that point.
Ridiculous.
Buff DS and make it basekit? Great! Now every killer will start slugging everyone and packing No One Escapes Death, No Way Out, and Blood Warden to counter DS trades in end game, meanwhile moment-to-moment gameplay is unlikely to see a huge change.
I get it man, it sucks. I had a match just the other night where an Unknown player proxy camped so I couldn't fill my unhook meter and I didn't get to play at all that match. But you need to just get over it and move on to the next game like the rest of us do in solo Q, or play with a group who take anti-tunneling measures.
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This issue is that this is not just 1 game, its like 3 games in a row.
And as i mentioned above your comment -
This whole argument that something should not be in the game, because it dosnt work with all killers is kinda dumb.
Distortion is useless against more killers.
Sprint burst is useless against more killers.
Hope is useless against more killers.
And there are probably more.
As already mentioned by someone else :
"a basekit DS wouldn’t stop the killer from tunneling but it would allow a survivor to extend the chase significantly. Costing the killer who is tunneling a lot of time for generators to be done punishing them for going for one guy and potentially if you’re a good enough survivor to even escape if you extend the chase long enough."
The whole idea is that the killer waste so much time tunneling that it becomes ineffictive. Even when its not working with all killers. (see the above arguments).
If you cant win with out tunneling, then you need to get better.
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If survivors have basekit ds we should have basekit pain res 😃
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If survivors have basekit ds we should have basekit pain res 😃
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Tbh.. i would not mind, i think gens are flying too fast, and it does reward for hooking different survivors.
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As long as killers get basekit corrupt intervention. Survivors have gotten way too many basekit freebies.
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DS is only an issue if you are tunneling.
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Here is the difference, nobody here is claiming that implementing Sprint Burst into basekit would stop tunneling or any other form of toxic low skill play style (and even then SB can be used against most killers as long as you know how to use it right), and nobody is arguing that DS shouldn't be in the game, they're arguing it should not be base kit. Big difference between those two.
Bringing a perk and potentially seeing no value from it is LITERALLY the crux of the games Risk v Reward system for perks. Bring a hex you risk it getting destroyed, bring Deliverance you risk never getting a safe unhook or being on death hook by the time you get one. That's a core part of the gameplay.
"it would allow a survivor to extend the chase significantly" based on what metric? No, it would POTENTIALLY allow a survivor to extend chase significantly, so long as they're not facing one of the 27 killers that have powers who counter the benefits of DS, or so long as they're not bad at chases or loops, or so long as they don't get dropped in a bad tile, or so long as they don't get dropped in a tile with no resources. There are so many factors that stop basekit DS from being an effective tool against tunneling.
"The whole idea is that the killer waste so much time tunneling that it becomes ineffictive" it already is. If your team is not bullshitting around, and you can loop, you should be popping at LEAST two gens before you're hooked. If you're REALLY good, you can even run the killer for 5 gens and use their tunnel vision against them. Worst case scenario you should be getting 3 out even if you die personally.
"If you cant win with out tunneling, then you need to get better." - Who said otherwise? I thought it was pretty much universally agreed that, excluding having 1 hook at end game collapse, tunneling is a low skill play and that killers who can't get one person out without tunneling, despite the 60% win rate, just need to get better.
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I'm presuming you don't enjoy playing against only Nurse, Blight and Spirit? Basekit DS, which would only nerf the bottom half of the roster, would encourage the killer playerbase to pick up one of the killers in the top half of the roster. I agree the top 3 at the very least should see nerfs, but a majority of the top half is fairly balanced.
Strawman argument and an appeal to extremes. If you're going to defend your suggestion, at least do it properly, please, especially when my point is that you are advocating for further nerfs to otherwise balanced or weak killers and leaving the A tier and above killers relatively untouched, which would encourage killer players to simply swap to those killers, thereby not solving your problem, but instead making it worse.
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You really like the word "strawman" dont you? Its the 2nd time in this thread you tell someone that they use "strawman arguments". Seems that everyone that disagree with you are "strawmen" and their arguments are "strawman arguments" How do you even have a debate with people that disagree with you, if you have to try and demean them and their oppinions? thats really not very mature.
The only reason i said what i did was that YOU used it as an argument, YOU argued that something should not be in the game, because it dosnt work with all killers, but when i turn it around its (what was the word you like so much?) "a strawman argument"
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Basekit DS wouldn't actually work against the top half of the roster by power. Sure, against a tunneling trapper you'd get two actual chases in off hook. But you wouldn't against Nurse, Blight, Wesker, Spirit, etc etc etc"I said it 2 or 3 times already, but let me repeat it so im sure you see it too : The whole idea is that the killer waste so much time tunneling that it becomes ineffictive. Even when its not working with all killers.
Why are you so afraid that this would get implemented in the game? are tunneling so important to you??
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You created a ridiculous version of my argument and then argued against that instead of the point I was actually making. By definition, it was a strawman and an appeal to extremes. Anyway, to address the actual points made:
The whole idea is that the killer waste so much time tunneling that it becomes ineffictive. Even when its not working with all killers.
To quote you:
I said it 2 or 3 times already, but let me repeat it so im sure you see it too:
if it were to become ineffective on weak killers (who often necessitate a level of tunneling to make up for the lack of pressure their kit can put out), you'd only play against Nurses, Blights and Spirits. Which, last I checked, the community doesn't like.
Those still pushing through on weaker killers would also turn to bleeding out survivors, which whilst being a slightly lesser amount of pressure is also significantly more unfun for both sides as Unbreakable becomes essentially a required perk to run, decreasing overall perk variety and making the game more stale.
Why are you so afraid that this would get implemented in the game? are tunneling so important to you??
It's not, given I'm essentially a survivor one trick (70/30 survivor/killer). But I enjoy playing against a variety of killers and don't like getting slugged - something I'd hope you agree with me on.
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In exchange for base kit Corrupt?
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So much handholding these survivors want but us killers get nothing lmao
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Yeah I’d ideally like not tunneling to be rewarded significantly more than it currently is. DBD right now incentivizes you to tunnel and punishes you if you don’t while it should be the opposite.
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"Make the most abusable perk in the history of the game base kit"
No thanks. The thing about endurance/2nd chance perks is that survivors just use them to bodyblock and harass the killer while holding a get-out-of-jail-free card.
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This is a lie.
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I honestly wouldn't be opposed to it as a 70/30 killer main. I would want them to somehow balance it around survivors not being able to weaponize it as they currently do with basekit borrowed time. Although, I admit, I don't know how they would be able to do that. Still wouldn't stop me from supporting it though.
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Finally somebody else here gets it, somebody else understands the counterplay killers would implement against a basekit DS!
The worst part of a basekit DS would be the endless slugging that would follow, on top of it not doing much to alleviate or fix the tunneling issue. If every match as survivor turned into us being slugged to avoid DS or a buffed DS I would probably quit playing survivor altogether to be honest.
I would much rather be tunneled out of the game early and going on to my next match instead of crawling around on the floor with no unbreakable, while the killer searches every corner for the remaining survivors.
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I like how you are stuck on 1-2 lines of my 7 line comment, and ignoring the rest. Then you use that 1-2 lines as a greenlight to demean me, really??
Let me post the rest of the comment again.
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How so? go for someone else (stop tunneling) and it wont be a problem.
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You keep comparing killers instead realizing that tunneling is an issue like it or not.
if a basekit DS were to be a thing the discrepancy between killers would become more apparent
like you said the strong killers wouldn’t be effected too much by a basekit DS. Congratulations you just uncovered a killer issue. The top 3 killers in the game are unfairly strong that’s why their the top 3 and they really need nerfs, the Dev team should NOT strive to make killers as strong as they are
A-B tier killers are the most balanced killers in the game they are strong killers but have reasonable counterplay… for the most part some of the killers in A tier have no reasonable counterplay but aren’t quite as obnoxious as the top 3. Basekit DS would do as it’s intended to help alleviate tunneling. The killers who rely on tunneling are also likewise an issue.
C and below tier killers: if these killers rely on tunneling to win then that is a obvious issue and they should be buffed accordingly but needing to tunnel to win should be unacceptable regardless
IMO a basekit DS is necessary due to just how unfair tunneling is I can understand going for the same survivor is part of the game but it should be to a extent. out right trying to get someone sacrificed as quick as possible is unfair to the guy getting hooked back to back
that being said just cause a killer is tunneling doesn’t exactly mean he should lose the game either that’s why Basekit DS seems like the best option to alleviate tunneling. You accomplish 2 things: 1 the tunneled survivor will have a chance to extend the chase long enough for himself to potentially escape or buy their team enough time to be at a advantage and 2 as killer you can avoid basekit DS by not tunneling for the survivor off of hook and go for them later so the unhooked survivor can play the game and reset.
should just be common sense that tunneling isn’t healthy and the issues you are trying to bring up are all killer related and not tunneling related.
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killers in recent changes have gotten a buff to their basekit Gen regression they can take 5% off and gens can’t be Gen tapped which means regression is more consistent.
Killers also have gotten FOV slider making them less noxious to play as and being more smooth at the same time
And numerous buffs to individual killers and perks
Post edited by EQWashu on1 -
It happens every day
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You're seriously enforcing a requirement to interact with your bad-faith ridden argument? I'm not really interested in discussing this with you further then, sorry.
And you keep ignoring my actual point. You're not even advocating for basekit DS at this point, you're advcoating a blanket killer nerf by whatever means is easiest, in a game where the roles are fairly well-balanced at the moment and don't need the blanket killer nerf.
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