Why are strong perks designed in a way that benefit strong killers over weak ones.
No where to hide is a good perk period but the fact that they have it currently set to be stronger on killers that can transverse the map super quick, Nurse and Blight is so dumb when they could literally have it centered on the gen. Like they already have it at large radius of 24 meters why make it stronger on fast killers. The same goes for ultimate weapon. Strong perk thats so much stronger on Oni, Blight, Wesker, Nurse who dont need the help. Both are strong meta perks amplified by strong meta powers. Wouldn't it be better to make them based on the interaction and if youre going to make it follow the killer have it last a variable time based off of distance from the object. Such as "While the killer remains in a 10 meter radius of the gen they can see survivor auras within 24 meters." Literally just making it slightly better for the slower killers or even much better setup and stealth killers like trapper or ghostface. I would think if designing a perk and you realize this perk is going to be much stronger if the killer can transverse the map quickly they might idk not build it like that. Otherwise I see perks that are solid but balanced for most killers getting nerfed because killers that are already super strong can abuse them.
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Broadly, stronger killers are going to benefit from perks regardless of what they are.
On the idea of linking perks to the area they activate - I wouldn't really have any problem with that. It would be a pretty big nerf to many killers and perks, but it would make then more easy to balance.
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You've got it backwards. It's not that strong perks are designed to be better on strong killers but that strong killers usually have the tools to synergise well with meta perks.
Take Pop and Nowhere To Hide for example. Both are often used in combination on exactly the gens that survivors work on. But to even get to that gen before it's finished you need to activate Pop quickly, so you need fast chases and reach the gen shortly after, which means you'll need mobility. Good case powers + good mobility usually is enough to make a killer good.
We had a time when weaker killers were able to use meta perks just as well as stronger killers but to be honest, that was miserable. CoB + OC worked but it wasn't a healthy combination, simply because it had no special conditions. If they were to bring back this combination now, you'd need to pair it with Nowhere To Hide and it would probably be horrible for solo queue players because they are mostly not coordinated enough to make the killer waste their regression events on all gens but pretty useless against a good SWF because they would simply bait out the 8 kicks and then push through with no trouble. Keep in mind, if you can get back on thag gen immediately, the regression is almost non existent.
So redesigning meta perks will not work. Instead we need to focus on the killers that struggle and change them accordingly. Killers need at least 1) a good chase power or 2) good mobility (often both because otherwise you need to compensate for the lack of one by doubling down on the other). Many killers have a few extra things in their kit but there is no way around these 2.
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Nerfing the perks makes them better on some killers? That's an interesting take.
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it’s very hard to make perks that aren’t just better on the better killers. Oddly enough we actually did have one very good perk that was better on the worse killers (stbfl)..but it got nerfed..for some reason. That was one of the healthier perks helping bad killers.
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It literally doesnt have to be a nerf but a change to stop giving perks added bonus to killers with mobility who are generally the strongest in the game. For example lets take No Where to Hide, if we adjusted it from 24m to 30m (which I dont think would be necessary but youre bringing up it being a nerf so okay) but made it centered on the gen instead of moving with the killer. For killers without added mobility it would be a buff because it essentially adds around 58% more area of coverage for the 5 seconds. But a killer that has mobility it would be a nerf because someone like blight cant just immediately rush and see all surviviors on the map. Because the spirit of the perk is to see the survivors near the generator to chase them off it. Or my preferred method where it lasts while you are close to the gen could allow killers to maintain the aura read longer than the 5 seconds at the cost of them staying close to the gen. This change would essentially benefit killers who need the perk more. Making information perks tied to a killers non static location for a period of time are designed in such a way that they provide more benefit to the killers with the largest map presence, which also corresponds with the strongest killers.
No where to hide vs pop is actually a really good example. Because Pop's condition can't reach literally any gen from any hook based on the time constraint and the only part that benefits the high mobility killers more is whether they would be able to kick the gen before it gets done which is a benefit the killer has with or without the perk. Where as No Where to Hide can show a Blight 2x as much info as a Trapper for the same action making it significantly stronger on Blight.
Meanwhile the Call of Brine/Overcharge issue was literally just an issue with eruption and they got murdered in the crossfire. If they would have adjusted eruption without destroying COB and Overcharge they would have remained as viable perk alternatives without being the oppressive powerhouses they were in combination with eruption.
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Pop got buffed to 60 seconds so that weaker killers could more easily use the perk. It got nerfed to 45 seconds. this nerfed weaker killer from using the perk outside of 3 gens without affecting high mobility killers to use the perk.
Ultimate weapon is getting same treatment. the duration being lowered from 30 →15 seconds but this will only affect weaker killers with low traversal but will not affect stronger killers. I don't think it is going to be huge drastic nerf like pop was but i dislike how perk is losing scream property which is removing option for killer to counter distortion.
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TBF with STBFL it should have gotten the nerf when the adjusted the base attack cd was reduced.
And for the record I am not talking about perks being better on some killers. I am talking about perks that DO more for some killers. BBQ and chili is better on Blight than on Trapper but provides the same benefit, seeing people 40+ m from the hook. Blight can get there faster its better for Blight. Iron Maiden provides the same benefits for huntress as hag but its better on huntress because she opens more lockers. These I see as fine. But No where to hide shows Blight more information than the Trapper. Thats the distinction I am trying to make with this. It does more for the killer than what the killers power alone does.
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Could you explain what you mean with Blight getting 2x the value of Trapper? I don't follow.
The issue with CoB + OC was not Eruption. Eruption was nerfed in patch 6.6.0. CoB and Overcharge were nerfed in 6.7.0. There was a month and 2 weeks in between these patches. So they were not caught in the crossfire. The reason was that with these 2 perks, killers didn't need to end chases, which meant they could simply patrol gens, kick them and repeat with taking the free hit / down on ocassion. That was enough to drag the game out for 60 minutes, if you held a good 3gen. That was back when especially Skull Merchant and Knight were notorious for holding the game hostage. But this was possible on petty much any killer with mobility or good map pressure / territorial powers.
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The problem with Pop is not so much that you won't reach the gen before the duration ends. At most it takes 25 seconds to traverse the map and get to that specific gen. However, the gen could very well be finished before you make it there. That's where weaker killers usually struggle and it's why it's so important to keep chases short.
With UW I agree but again, this is less an issue with the perk and more with killer design. If more killers had good mobility, then this wouldn't be as much of an issue. Mobility is one of the things that heavily impact how good or bad a killer is. Have you ever seen a killer that good map mobility but was still horribly weak? Or have we ever had a killer that had neither a good chase power nor good mobility but was still good (besides SM, who was only that good because of specific perks and addons)?
Especially that part about Distortion rubs me the wrong way. I am of the opinion that right now Distortion is not a healthy perk. It counters a good variety of killer meta perks (even when combined, which is kind of crazy) and it takes little to keep the effect up all game. So the payoff is a bit too high for how little you actually have to do (few exceptions) and it also means, that someone else will die early because if the killer can't find you, they can't go for you, which means, that someone else will take your chases and hooks. What happens now if the killer doesn't go out of their way not to tunnel? Someone is likely going to die at 4 or 5 hooks.
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Okay so Blight and Trapper do the same action kick a gen. They both have 5 seconds of seeing auras. Because its centered on the killer and not gen if no auras are seen initially blight can rush at 2x the speed maintaining these wall hacks the entire time centered on him. So by covering 2x the distance as Trapper in this time he gets 2x the information. Compare this to BBQ where its still better on blight because he can get there faster but they get the same info. Or I'm all ears its the same info for any killer but some powers can utilize it better. I am basically trying to convey that I have no issue with synergy with powers, but perks and powers should help utilize them better not make the other one stronger by its nature.
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I agree. Pop time limit only happens when you prioritize other gens or chases not because you couldnt reach the correct gen.
I also agree kinda with the distortion. My issue with distortion is 2-fold. One is it gives information to possibly all the survivors about the killers perks. And 2nd is that it regains its charges at the wrong time. It should be while in chase you gain back charges as opposed to when in the terror radius out of chase. IE you spent time in danger you get a reprieve rather than just hiding keeps you perma safe. Personally I think Distortion should be changed to while crouched your aura isnt shown. And then buff technician and bite the bullet to block auras while doing gens and healing respectively. It removes the extra information about the killers perks, buffs two underutilized perks in minor ways and overall would be a healthier setup while still offering some level of protection. Its also SO DUMB that distortion also hides your scratch marks changing Im all ears to actually be a survivor perk. (Calm spirit cries in the corner because of the horrid nerf it got when they "tried to make it better")
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"And for the record I am not talking about perks being better on some
killers. I am talking about perks that DO more for some killers"That's synonymous. They are better on them , because they do more.
"TBF with STBFL it should have gotten the nerf when the adjusted the base attack cd was reduced. "
I don't think it actually needed that nerf. It wasn't an overpowered perk. However, if they had just lowered the % some to compensate for that the perk wouldn't have been destroyed and would still be decent. The change they did though, destroyed the perk for many killers.
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Thank you. I did not think of that in this context. That's a fair point honestly.
Though, I'd say it's somewhat similar to what I wrote about UW. I'm genuinely not sure, if this is even a good thing. In my opinion Nowhere to Hide would be completely fine, if it took the gen and not the killer's position as a reference. Maybe the range could be increased slightly, if it ends up as a big nerf.
The main reason, I believe you got it backwards is that this would imply that the devs intentionally design perks that way. But that's probably not the case. It's more likely that the biggest strengths different killers have, happen to synergise well with certain perks. In Pop's case, I can only say that I think it's a very healthy design philosophy. It rewards the killer for playing well and it encourages them to leave the hook. And once they get to that other gen, they might as well go for another chase, which is where Nowhere to Hide comes in.
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Did they announce that was the change they were doing to ultimate weapon? I wouldn't be surprised but I would be disappointed. They literally have a swap that would make two perks both decently viable. Remove the hook condition of Thwack and give it a 30 second cooldown and remove the cooldown from Ultimate weapon and place on the hook condition. It would make it better but still have the issue that NWTH has where it actively is better for highly mobile killers.
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negative. the timer is biggest issue with pop for low tier killers. See with 60 second of pop goes weasel, a killer could commit to a chase, down survivor, see that a gen nearby had progress, kick that gen then hook survivor, get another pop and kick another gen in same area.
with current pop, your pop goes weasel expires. you trade regression for distance gain for committing to kick a gen. that is why they nerfed pop goes weasel from 60 second → 45 second. a higher mobility killer can make up distance loss, a low mobility killer cannot make up distance loss. They don't get anything out of using pop if survivor is efficient. as long as 1 survivor is on a gen, by the time you catch-up to the survivor that is hold-w from your kick, they regain all progression from pop on another gen.
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No where to hide showing auras in a space 2x as big for Blight as Trapper is the perk doing more for a killer.
Blight being able to reach a survivor they see with BBQ faster than trapper could is a perk being better for a killer.
They are two very different things.
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"They are two very different things."
They are not. What you just described is the perks being better on them because they do more. Those are the same things. "Do more" and "better" are synonymous. Can you give me an example of a perk that's better on a killer that doesn't do more?
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To be 100% honest I don't think that the devs meant for it to move with the killer or though of its interactions with blight and nurse. The spirit of the perk is pretty clear in that its to show survivors who hid near a gen you just kicked. I think it was a lack of foresight which is something I think should be looked into when making perks. Is this perk going to have a very strong interaction with a killers power, if so will that be a problem? (Cough cough nurse's starstruck)
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I mean BBQ doesnt do anything more for Blight but if thats not to your liking.
I'm all ears. Better on Pyramid head because he can aim better but does the same thing regardless.
Iron Maiden on Bubba, Still exposed still scream but people go into lockers more against bubba to avoid the chainsaw. Same Iron Maiden with doctor.
Discordance with artist. Thano with Plague. STBFL with Demo. Coup with m1 killers.
Darkness revealed on Nurse, huntress or trickster.
All of these have the same effect, nothing changes with effect, but because playstyle is different they are stronger. The information condition or action you get from these perks are the same regardless of killer. But because No where to hide a time based info perk based on the killers position a killer that moves faster does not get the same benefit as a killer that moves slower. If it was based on the Gen it would still be better on killers that can reach or attack that location quicker but it wouldnt do more for some killers than it does for others.
If I am being honest I would also state the issue with Iron Maiden effecting Huntress and Tricksters reload speed but because its less problematic its less of an issue. In addition they did partially address that a few patches ago by reducing their reload speed to make them less reliant on those perks. Plus gave huntress more hatchets because… no one really knows why.
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PErks are better on better characters, who wouldve thought?
Just buff the other killers on par with the top 10?
It works for the survivor discurse on buffing survivor so bad players can keep up with good players on comms. Making all killers perform similar so the perks would have the same performance on all of them would seem fair, right?
Its funny how nerfing comes only up in killer balance discussions. Making perks worse wont help worse killers lol.
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Did you read what I wrote? Because I've stated the distinction that I have with between synergy and design flaw. Like there are a lot of perks that work better on various killers and thats fine its when a perk literally does more for a killer that there is an issue. Blight, nurse and wesker gain more information from No Where to Hide than other killers. Its not that they can utilize the information better they literally get more information. That is problematic. If the perk was placed instead on the gen it might need a slight buff in distance to maintain the same level of effectiveness but shouldn't give a larger area of aura reading to a character with a dash or teleport.
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I did not try to imply that and I very much agree that it's obvious the devs don't always sufficiently consider how perks interact with different things in this game.
Starstruck Nurse is a good example of that. As Boil Over in the RPD library. Or MfT against pretty much every M1 killer. Of course it can always happen that you overlook something in a game with as much content as DBD but if it takes the players only 10 seconds to think of potential issues, then the devs should see them too and be ready to make the needed changes.
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Yeah I think we are on the same page. I am not thinking that devs purposefully design perks to have these advantages on higher tier killers but do think that if they are going to have something based on positioning it should be intentionally done in a way that would benefit lower tier killers more. Imagine if instead of 5 seconds of 24 m aura reading it was 24 m of aura reading until you were >10m from the gen. Non mobile killers will get the power longer and might use it to scour the area better and mobile killers have that option too but generally wont due to their playstyle. Like I feel it wouldnt be a buff or a nerf but a change that nerfs the perk for high mobility killers while buffing it for the lower ones which is honestly who would need it more.
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I disagree. Because in most cases you simply won't get a down in less than 60 seconds. Especially not when you consider that you need to traverse the map first and most killers have quite a cooldown on their mobility. That might work on Nurse or maybe Blight but for pretty much anyone else, that is not realistic. Personally, I don't see any issue with first delivering Pop and then starting a chase. Yes, that survivor will get a head start but you get some pretty noticeable slowdown out of it.
With good mobility, you can easily catch up though, which negates the downside of giving the survivor extra distance. This again means, that mobility synergises well with the perk. The regression still buys you more time than you need to catch up again on most killers. Much more and often you can switch targets and chase after someone, who does not have as much distance (granted, a Seal Team Six SWF won't let that happen though). The killers that don't make good use of Pop (like Myers and Trapper) typically use different perks, that work better with their powers. Like for example Corrupt Intervention and Deadlock.
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Honestly, that's an interesting suggestion. It could be pretty funny in combination with Insidious. I'd like that.
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They could adjust the numbers for all the perks based on each killer. The core reason would be high or low mobility, possibly also ranged. The inherent flaw that is the mobility for the high tier killers would still remain.
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It does do more for Blight since he's able to get there faster and capitalize on the aura reading more than most others.
I'm All Ears does do more for PH because he's able to capitalize on the aura reading with his secondary.
ALL of these examples are making my point.
"More" is based on the outcome. IE getting more value out of running it.
There's no difference better because I can aim my attack easier and better because I move faster. You're trying to make a distinction between these when there's not. The mechanism of the value is irrelevant if the outcome is the same.
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NWH follows the killer model as you move during its duration. Since blight can cover more ground in that time frame, he can scan more of the map by virtue of being blight.
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I played old version of pop that was 60 seconds. I would say you have to be downing survivors in 60 seconds consistently throughout entire game to be remotely effective as killer. any slower than that and the gen just fly. Killer that were proficient at the chase gain a lot of regression from 60 second+25% total regression pop due to that double pop interaction. good for m1.
With current pop, i don't notice any slowdown vs efficient teams. It is not really surprising to why that is either. The only slowdown i notice is pain res+grim embrace. nothing else.
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For perks like Nowhere to Hide and Barbecue and Chili, they need to look at how much ground the average walking killer can cover in that amout of time (4.6 m/s for 5 seconds (technically 4 seconds for BBQ because of the hooking animation) = 23 meters) and add that distance to the perks as an upper limit.
Barbecue and Chili - After hooking a Survivor, all other Survivors' auras are revealed to you for for 5 seconds when they are further than 40 meters from the hook. Barbecue and Chili deactivates after moving further than 24 meters from the hook.
Nowhere to Hide - Whenever you damage a generator, reveal the aura of all Survivors standing within 24 meters of your position for 5 seconds. Nowhere to Hide deactivates when moving further than 24 meters from the damaged generator.
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Do you not understand that No where to hide provides different information for the killer based on their speed compared to other killers making the perk stronger. Like with Thano if the suvivors heal they dont lose the percentage. They are less likely to heal against plague so its a synergy. A do more is when the perk literally provides something extra. Like if Doctor instead increased madness whenever a survivor screamed perks like infectious and other screaming perks would do more for the doctor.
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Honestly… yea. I agree with this.
Even in older DBD, Hex: Ruin (pre-rework) and Pop Goes could be insanely strong back then. Granted, it relied on RNG and a lot of luck to make sure Hex: Ruin was not cleansed, but against a majority of the playbase it would bring matches down to a crippling crawl for pretty much every single Killer, which eventually ended with Hex: Ruin getting a rework.
Perks that are generally designed to work well across all Killers get used to the point of being meta and/or get nerfed from being problematic (i.e. being unconditional and providing large amounts of regression).
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if you reread what I typed you’ll see I do understand that and it’s literally what I already said.
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So this is easiest explained with BBQ and No where to hide. Both give an amount of information and what they do with that information is up to the killer. The issue is No Where to Hide, doesnt give the same information. BBQ same map, same hook, same survivor positions and perks the killer will see the same thing and can act accordingly. But with No Where to hide, same map same gen survivor positions and perks faster killers see a bigger range, up to twice as much space covered as slower killers. The perk is showing more to those killers which is very different that killers being able to utilize the same benefit information better.
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They keep trying to balance the game around perks and not killer abilities or giving survivors abilities separate from perks. That's why the game can never be truly balanced.
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