There is no longer any point in hanging survivors on hooks.
DS has been strengthened, and winter has arrived for murderers. This is the moment when there is no longer any point in hanging survivors on a hook. There will come a time when we will tunnel survivors and then leave them to die. This is an environment created by management.
Comments
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Hopefully my theory about DS/OTR/Unbreakable bodyblocks doesn't come true, with it becoming a meta strat, but I can't blame other killers for worrying about playing fair and having to deal with survivors trying to get tunneled to get as much value out of it.
And survivors should also agree. Unless the ones in question have builds as explained above made to stall time for chases by weaponizing it, you're gonna have the other end of the spectrum of survivors not using it defensively and going offensive and getting slugged for no reason if they decide to not bring Unbreakable or some way to pick back up.
Tunneling still needs other ways to help mitigate it. Perks can only do so much on their own and end up just being a band-aid or a problem for low-end killers.
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Good killers managed for years with 5 second DS and 80 gens. Like...just eat the DS and tunnel the person out after that if they're body blocking with OTR and DS. They're handing you a 4k if you're any good.
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Somehow, I find it odd that killers aren't rejoicing in the fact that once again; a good perk for survivors has been nerfed (Ahem, they gutted Adren…) …but are instead, choosing to complain about DS being 5 seconds. Again.
A perk that didn't seem to bother them back then when it had 5 seconds before????18 -
A perk nerf means it's no threat.
For most killers on this forum, a perk buff that isn't live yet means they can spam the forums with complaints and probably get the devs to change their minds 'due to feedback'.
That 5s stun is a target, and you can guarantee that there will be posts about 'omg this is the worst, I just had 25 games with DS losing me the match' within about 3 seconds of this PTB going live.
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Nice now unbreakable will definitely get some use its like every time I bring it I just get insta picked. I find it so funny how killers are over reacting that survivors are going to be harder to tunnel. They already can do all the body blocking otr etc stuff anyways.
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We all know that when there are decent players on both the killer and survivor sides, a single DS decision can turn the tide of the battle. The problem is that there are very few decent players on dbd. Therefore, there are unique bluffs that work, and strategies that rely on slugging.
However, since that's all there is to it, survivors use DS without hesitation, and killers are free to choose whether or not to go along with it.
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Ain't that the truth… As long as they get their way, they're happy to do it by ANY means necessary.
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The issue is it's going to get worse for killers who don't tunnel because bodyblocking with OTR/DS/UB will be much more appealing with a 5 second stun if the killer falls for the pickup.
Heck even the mindgame of it could be a problem eventually. If DS ends up as bad as I predict, survivors could just bodyblock without it and make the killer think they have DS when they just wanted to go after the unhooker or another survivor. I even did it in a match against a Billy in Midwich today, despite the 3 second stun and got a 4 man escape buying enough time.
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You know you could yah know… not tunnel?
I never got hit with old DS and I never get hit with current DS because I never tunnel, so its a wasted perk slot for the survivor versing me
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WOAH, What do you know?! A solution that's just as easy to do!?!
Crazy how they'll never do it and then say " It's necessary. " Like…?3 -
Its so weird eh, I guess that DS has absolutely no counter so these poor people will simply not be able to hook survivors.
I mean, how can one possibly play killer if you cant tunnel every survivor off the hook until dead? Wont someone think of the poor tunnellers for god sake? /s
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Most of the arguments aren't for tunneling, it's for survivors weaponizing it to force the killer to tunnel. Especially M1 killers trying to do a chase and end up having someone bodyblock with OTR/DS/UB ready.
Tunneling needed basekit mechanics put in place, or at least force the unhooked survivor to have no collision post-unhook until they do a conspicuous action to counter this behavior.
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Yeah good idea actually, I think that will happen as it makes great sense.
I am not at all about it being weaponised against killers trying to do the right thing, only those attempting to relentlessly tunnel survivors off every hook.
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I promise ping ponging hooks between two survivors until they're dead isn't that hard.
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In the first place, there are many parks that have anti-tunneling measures, so I don't understand why survivors who have not taken measures to prevent them would ask the management for help. Survivors are just good at shelving their prowess.
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Ironic, you claim we're asking for help and yet; here you are, whining about something that is actually GOOD for the survivors for once in awhile. In complete opposition to the sheer number of unreasonably powerful and or obnoxious killers with crazy perk set up. (Ahem, FoR Doctor, NURSE, SKULL MERCHANT, Xenomorph AND it's perks?)
Do i need to list more, or was that enough to paint the picture? Is it so wrong for one GOOD thing to come to survivors every once in awhile or do you need them to hold your hand too?2 -
The good killers are laughing in Grim Embrace.
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This is true, they only get DS once, so I suppose if someone body blocks you for DS, it's now spent, so thats a tunnel invitation if ever there was one.
Likely a player who does this is likely gonna want to get the killers attention anyway, so if you follow the golden rule of "don't chase the survivor who wants to be chased"… it'll probably be fine for the most part.
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And yet this weaponising hasn't happened. There's nothing stopping survivors from doing this now, you think a couple extra seconds is suddenly gonna turn the entire survivor base into bodyblocking sweat squads? This playerbase blowing up imaginary scenarios in their heads is my favourite thing, I swear lol if someone is trying to "force" you to tunnel, then I dunno, grant their wish? All the complaints tell me is that current DS is at best a mild inconvenience to killers and at worst useless, and killers dont want that to change. Which tells me this buff is needed.
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I don't think that losing collision will ever happen because it's been on the table for years, they could have done it already but somehow decided not to.
And tbh, I don't think you've played killer much. The amount of times I've been bodyblocked by a freshly unhooked survivor to protect their rescuer in a situation where hooks were spread and there were like, 2 gens remaining, becoming instead my target, only to complain and whine about being tunneled in the egc. You guys like to act as if only one side is the devil, when there are actually scummy players playing both killers and survivors.
And facing a SWFs will be even harder now, trust me. I'm not saying unwinnable, but surely stressful. BHVR has done plenty of good things lately but this seems like a step back. The solution to tunneling is not increasing the stun duration of a perk like this, even though you can only use it once per trial.
If we go back to vsing bully squads SWFs every couple games, I assure you, survivors (specially soloq) will end up paying the price, too. All the killers that fall victim to SWFs weaponizing perks just to mess with them will either stop playing or keep playing and be the opposite of nice to other survivors.
Depiping is a good step forward that should take stress off of both roles, though, so it may compensate somehow.1 -
I have over 4k hours, admittedly 60% approx as survivor but that is still a lot of hours as killer.
Who is this "you guys" you are talking about, I didn't realise I was officially part of some collective.
I never complained about tunnelling in the EGC, in fact I have repeatedly and consistently complained about "tunnelling out the first weak link at 5 gens" which is what is happening at present.
If you don't tunnel, you do not have this problem and the perk deactivates at EGC or when the survivor does literally anything that progresses the match. If you don't tunnel you do not get hit with DS and I pretty much never got hit with DS from the moment they reworked it to actually be anti- tunnel. You know why? Because I DON'T TUNNEL.
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I literally did it yesterday and have seen many survivors running DS try to get value from it by bodyblocking.
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Generally speaking, if you have 1 dead before the gens are completed, you're getting a 2k at worst. So as annoying as it might be, even if you have an absolute worst case scenario of eating OTR+DS+DH, you still have a path to a 2k at worst.
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I’m really not sure anyone would be worried about the new DS.
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Doesn't seem legit.
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I call bologna. I don’t believe any part of this statement at all.
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Don't believe it all you want, and your games may differ from mine, but I have plenty of survivors try to bodyblock to get DS value. Even against Sadako, who CAN avoid bodyblocks and they still attempt it. It's even worse playing other M1 killers.
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I don't know how this is an argument, so I guess I will considering that you conceding my point, thanks.
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I'm sorry to hear that the management at your place of work are making things difficult for you. It must be terrible to actually risk being considerably punished if you tunnel - and scary to think that your one single strategy for winning the game may no longer be as effective. My heart bleeds for you as much as the survivors you'll be bleeding out.
Winter is no longer coming, Tsukihi. Winter is here.
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This is so over-dramatic!! For goodness sake, tunnelling isn't even necessary at pub levels and you can win a decent amount of trials without it.
You also realise that if many players also held this mentality and slugging became commonplace, BHVR will probably introduce some sort of Unbreakable basekit. Why was the BT basekit put in place in the first place, do you think?
The DS buff may be beneficial as for those killer players willing to learn, they'll start to understand that tunnelling at pubs isn't the only way to do well.
If anything, BHVR need to make another anti-tunnel perk not hidden behind cash-only DLCs, so new players will also get a chance to defend themselves from tunnelling when first starting.
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It's simply not an argument, because obviously there's no point argueing with you, given your response. Feel free to take it however you want, which seems to me is something you usually do.
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These are all strawmen or ad-hominem attacks rather than an actual argument, so I guess you have no actual arguments in that case.
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Ok. ;)
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The problem is that this takes a lot of agency away from killers. You don't get to choose if you want to tunnel anymore. So at least it should be looked into.
There are some easy solutions to fix such issues without nerfing these perks when used as intended:
- Base kit BT (maybe the perk too?) grants complete invulnerability to killer powers and attacks but removes the survivor's collision with the killer. This allows that survivor to get away from the killer without getting hit right off the hook and increases the strength of OTR but also removes the cases in which survivors force the killer's hand by bodyblocking.
- DS and OTR grant you Bond's effect for as long as they remain active but both deactivate on protection hits, so you can't use either of them for bodyblocks. Some adjustments could be made to the protection hit mechanic to make it more consistent without gutting either DS or OTR. That could also make MoM a slightly more reliable perk.
- Flashlights and flashbangs cannot be used until a conspicuous was performed or the duration of the perks has ended. They don't help against tunneling anyway and this also removes the possibility of survivors trying to use their anti tunnel perks to safely get a flashlight / flashbang save on their team mates.
There are probably some potential issues still but I'm positive they could be fixed as well without taking away from these perks.
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There is nothing morally wrong with just slugging when the most popular Survivor perks tend to lean towards being hooked. And not a lot of people are willing to use their unbreakable when 3-5 gens are still left.
Remember, the only counter to Knock-out is SWFs. And SWFs counter the majority of things to begin with.
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