http://dbd.game/killswitch
A Clown Rework idea: more reliable, less frustrating to go up against.
Hi. I am a Clown main with roughly 700 hours of experience on him and while it may not be enough (according to some) I still feel like I have enough experience to have a few thoughts about his current state.
My only intention with this post is to foster constructive dialogue regarding the Clown. Achieving even minimal success with the Clown at high MMR levels demands significant effort, often feeling disproportionately challenging compared to other characters like a Wesker or a Blight (not trying to accuse Wesker of being OP, just saying that it's more reliable and most importantly more fun to face).
This is not a cry for help, nor a cry for instant change. I got this idea whilst getting curbstomped on Clown for the 100th time, and I would just like to share it with you all.
My problems with the Clown are the following:
- Survivors hate him because of his slow-down bottle, and I agree. Winning against the Clown still feels like you've gone through a heavy migraine. Instead of being happy for playing well and escaping, you're more happy that you're out of the torture. Whilst my objective is winning, I also want survivors to have fun going up against me.
- His power is too weak. He is strong at chases, but you're still at the mercy of how good the survivor you're currently chasing is. Map pressure and mobility is localized: if you're on one side of the map, the other side is just completely vulnerable.
- This is more of a personal issue, but he is too reliant on tunneling and camping. While valid tactics, they only promote toxicity due to them not being fun on the Survivor side. But even tunneling and camping is only going to ensure you very minimal results: high MMR Survivors bring lots of anti-tunneling perks, with the ability to prolong a chase and give lots of time for generators to get done.
I'm trying to ensure he becomes stronger than he currently is, and at the same time making him a fun killer to both play and face, remaining on par with what the developers intended for him: a strong chase killer with low map mobility.
Please note that English is not my first language so there might be some mistakes.
CLOWN REWORK
Afterpiece Tonic (Purple Bottle):
Clown Effect: No change; the Clown remains unaffected by the tonic.
Survivor Effect: The slowing effect is significantly reduced (halved or by 75%). The entire community agrees that being slowed down is one of the most frustrating aspects of the game, and the only reason why a Killer like the Clown, even though weak and not oppressive, can still be hated. But still, the slowing effect should still exist. Yes, Arinad will still be able to do his crazy orbital bottle strikes and double combos.
Direct contact with the Afterpiece Tonic fills up a Corrosion bar. When this bar is full, survivors receive a permanent although infinitesimably small Hindered status effect, reduced repair and healing speeds.
- Counteractions: Survivors can remove the Corrosion status (and therefore all of its status effects) by taking a hit, entering Afterpiece Antidote gas, or finding a new environmental box, a “bottle crate”, to retrieve a bottle of the Afterpiece Antidote and break it on the ground to create a gas cloud, to heal themselves and surrounding survivors from the Corrosion effect.
Afterpiece Antidote (Yellow Bottle):
Clown Effect: Grants the usual Haste effect (although slightly buffed to make up for the Afterpiece Tonic nerf), increasing movement and action speeds (e.g., kicking pallets/generators).
Survivor Effect: Also grants the usual Haste effect, increasing movement and speeds for repairs, healing, and vaulting.
Balancing Issues
The following is a list of things that need to be thoroughly inspected, balanced and adapted to the current state of the game if this rework is ever taken into consideration:
Afterpiece Antidote Invigoration
- how much should the Haste status effect be increased?
- how much should it buff the Clown’s pallet/generator kicking speed?
- how much should it buff the Survivors’ repairing/healing action speed?
- how many bottles of the Afterpiece Antidote should the survivors be able to retrieve from one single bottle crate?
- will these bottle crates be limited? Will they generate bottles infinitely over time?
Afterpiece Tonic
- how much should the slowing effect be decreased?
- at what rate should the Corrosion bar fill up?
- how much should the Corrosion effect nerf the Survivors’ repairing/healing actions?
Let me know what you guys think.
Comments
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purple tonic in this post is wesker's infection. clown is all about burst, on demand speed. The over-time hindered and over-time speed boost killers are Wesker & Skull merchant respectively. clown has his own identity and place.
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I understand why you would think of Wesker, but the Corrosion does not build up by itself over time like Wesker's infection, but rather by coming into contact with the purple gas.
Clown is indeed about burst and on demand speed! However strength is unfortunately only that of shutting down chases, which is also dependent the Survivor's ability to keep up a long chase. That and nothing else. By itself that does not strike me as enough: you can be the strongest Clown who shuts down chases in optimal times, yet moving from point A to point a to point B or pressuring far away survivors is still completely lacking.
I understand why you think the overtime hindered effect is a direct copy of Wesker's, but we are talking about a killer who both by lore and power has the main focus of slowing down survivor. I think it would apply fairly, the issue is as it is, the purple gas is just very unfun. Killers like Blight, Hillbilly and Oni are fun to go up against because they do not have direct control on how fast YOU the Survivor move, but rather how THEY move. Therefore, my idea gives the Clown the ability to go faster while halving the frustrating mechanic of slowing down a player who is constantly hit by unavoidable bottles, at the same time allow for some moderate Survivor pressure.
Clown has his own identity and place. There are many ways to see him sure, but personally (and from what I've gathered on past discussions on many websites) he is seen as a weak killer who is also very frustrating to face. He is not fun to go up against while also being on the lower tiers. Clown has a special place in my heart, I want to see him triumph, be loved, be appreciated.
With the introduction of bottle crates where survivors can grab Afterpiece Antidotes for thenselves, you also introduce a both fun and strategic new feature to the killer which favours the fun of both Survivors and the Clown alike.
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With reduced slow effect, his anti loop power will be killed and he would be pretty much useless killer.
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Unfortunately, it is also what makes him an unfun killer on the Survivor side. I don't mean that it's bad design on the developers' side, but rather engaging and fun mechanics should be favored over things players find frustrating.
I considered applying the changes that I proposed while keeping his full slow-down effects, with no decrease. But that would go against what I proposed in the title: more reliable, less frustrating. Keeping his slow-down effect with the changes I proposed would just make him more reliable. My Corruption mechanic proposal exists solely to remove the unfun slowing down mechanic during chases, instead swapping it for a permanent slow, although MUCH more diminished.
I wouldn't exactly say he would become useless. Survivors would still be prone to pre-dropping, either leaving the Clown with the choice to immediately kick the pallet with the Invigoration bonus (faster kicking), or playing around the pallet with a reduced slowdown, but a faster Invigoration. It makes up for it, all you're doing is just making it less frustrating on the Survivor side.
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You have no time to break pallet with clown, who is now lot weaker.
So yeah he will be useless, and we really have no point in nerfing things "because frustrating", like literally everything of killer powers are frustrating, if we gonna nerf all that we'll just have powerless M1 killer.
Even with your change, survivors will still be "frustrated" thanks to additional run objectives and permanent hindered, if anything it'd annoy survivors EVEN MORE than what we have now.
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I struggle to understand what you mean with "clown is a lot weaker". Destroying pallets or playing around them is more reliable now that you're speeding up his process with Invigoration, is it not?
It is not true that all Killer powers are frustrating:
- against a Blight, you're trying to dodge his speedy lounges by turning around objects. You're not being forced to drop a pallet unless you make a miscalculation or the Blight player has outplayed you with a smart bump.
- against a Hillbilly, pretty much the same thing. If you're downed, it's because you've made a miscalculation or because Billy has done a sick turn.
- against an Oni, you're playing around quick turns to stop his rush. If you're downed, you've made a miscalculation or the Oni has simply got you pinned or caught up to you eventually around a curve.
Why do I think Clown's power is frustrating? The only counterplay is to drop a pallet, and either play around that pallet which always ensures the Clown another hit, all you're doing is trying to waste his time until your inevitable downfall, or holding W to the next loop whilst catching bottles on your back, getting a constant ping-pong between an extremely slow movement speed and your base movement speed.
Applying a permanent but severely reduced Hindered effect until Corrosion is full will still allow the survivor to play around the same pallet or run away with less frustration. The Clown can make up for it with buffed Invigoration: he is faster and can also break the pallet faster. The survivor however is healed from Corrosion upon entering his yellow gas, being hooked or finding an Afterpiece Antidote in a crate somewhere.
What is going to make it more fun? Having a full Corrosion status effect will actively push players to seek Afterpiece Antidotes around the map. The can use them to heal up and gain temporary repair/healing bonuses, therefore also adding a strategic counterplay on the Survivor's side.
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With weaker slow, it takes like 2x or even 3x to catch up with survivors, the difference between those are ridiculous.
On top of that, you can't "just hit and make them slow" too, farther reducing the effectiveness of clown.
So ultimately you are just removing his chase power, and adding unneeded chore to survivors, basically making him unfun for both.
Action speed is useless in chase.
Also clown counter play isn't dropping pallet, it's stunning him.
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They will have a permanent hindered status effect upon reaching full Corrosion (let's say 4%, which is lower than Wesker's full infection), plus slow-down effect which is half of what it currently is. In addition, your Invigoration bottles grant you, let's say, 15% of Haste instead of the current 10%. Paired with add-ons or other perks, it can turn even higher which is why I don't want it to be base 20% else it would become ridiculous.
You will still be able to perform double bottle combos. The difference is you're nerfing the purple bottle in favour of the yellow bottle.
On the other hand, the Corrosion helps you maintain some pressure on that survivor plus whoever is in full Corrosion status, who will seek bottles around the map. The Survivor is rewarded for finding an Afterpiece Antidote with a full Corrosion heal and buffed speeds in repairing and healing.
What counts as an "unneded chore" to you? Many killers have the mechanic of pushing survivors to find crates/items around the map to remove a status effect: Cenobite, Freddy, Wesker, Nemesis, Singularity… the list goes on.
All you're doing for Clown is the same thing, but at the same time rewarding them for doing so.
On the other hand, Clown compensates for high speed and a less frustrating slow-down.
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4% is pretty much nonexistent compared to 15 or 19%.
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I think a lot of Clown hatred has been diminished with the removal of his blur effect tbh, so I don't think he's as hated nowadays as he was before. I know I certainly don't have the same bile towards him (and he was pretty much the only killer I hated playing against, because of how dumb he made me feel). Now he feels pretty fair at loops, because you can see him even while hindered and still try to outplay at loops without having to rely entirely on map memory.
That said, I do suspect the clown is weaker than he should be, especially now Pinky is off the table. People have fought me on this already, but I think Clown's chase is actually in a pretty good place and shouldn't be changed… but his chase is no longer potent enough to make up for his abysmal map presense.
The idea of Clown tonic having a lingering effect affecting gen repair speed and healing is actually a pretty cool idea to make him more viable and give him less incentive to tunnel.
My suggestion would be for the next 150s, survivors affected by tonic bottles suffer: -
- A 6% penalty to healing and repair speeds.
- A 40% increased skillcheck chance.
- Skillchecks no longer have a great skillcheck zone.
- Skillchecks are coloured similar to tonic bottle and have some kind of effect to sell the intoxicated idea (preferably not making the skillcheck harder, just to inform the survivor what is going on).
Getting hit by an afterpiece antidote removes this effect. I'd feed into your idea of survivors being able to find their own afterpiece antidote, but I would not have it as a bottle they can carry, rather a box that explodes like a jack in to box with the antidote gas providing the cure effect.
This encourages Clown to ignore the survivor off hook because they will have healing and repair penalties whereas healthy unchased survivors do not. Keeping survivors apart so you can't get 2 for 1 bottle splashes to apply the effect means you can passively slow down the game. The effect on skillchecks aids with this, because if you have more skillchecks but no greats, this makes it harder to spilt your attention and keep an eye on you around the world due to constant skillcheck requirements, and you don't get the benefit of great skillchecks at higher levels of play. It also synergises with the Clowns own perk Coulrophobia.
That would be how I buff Clown, give him something for actually nailing a survivor with a bottle, even if he doesn't commit to the chase.
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4% is just my placeholder. Do not see it as permanent. It can be changed to something else, and in addition to that base Hindered status effect you can still use your purples to slightly slow them down even further. But Afterpiece Tonic does not become fully useless, as it now builds up Survivor's Corrosion over time.
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And if we gonna change everything anyway, that'll just make him as strong now or even better, making him just as "unfun" as you say.
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While I do not exactly agree with the choice of 150s duration, the rest is actually super interesting!
The jackbox idea is very creative, congratulations.
I feel like you exactly understood what my intention with Clown is.
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Cheers lad, you could also make it permanent, having it be 150s was more a conservative approach, not wanting to give him TOO much in one go… not making it so you HAVE to go to a box, but it is preferable. Arguments either way though.
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The issue is that right now he is in an "unfun" position due to his slow-down bottles, while also weak due to non-existent map mobility and pressure. I'm really sorry if I'm passing off as aggressive here, really, but it feels like you are trying to slippery slope my argument. I apologise if mistaken.
And that's exactly what I'm trying to solve here. You're making him stronger in the sense that he will still be good at chases, but he will have map pressure. Still no map mobility but atleast map pressure in the sense that you can keep far-away survivors somewhat occupied with other matters. At the same time, he will be enjoyable on the survivor's side due to the reward from finding Afterpiece Antidotes, and the now gone frustrating slow-down effect.
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And if clown is equally stronger at chase, "unfun" stays same.
No, slowdown isn't the cause despite your belief, survivors do not like it when they get downed fast by uber fast killers.
At this point just add slowdown tools on top of current basekit.
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The entire point of clown's slow is to be heavy enough to prevent distance, and convert Fast Vaults (0.5s) into Medium Vaults (0.9s). The manifesto Clown main has detailed under every specific loop, how you can get a hit with 2-3 bottles. So I heavily disagree with decreasing the slow. Just as MfT required some loops to be re-learned by the opposition, Clown's power acts in the same way where the opposition needs to re-learn the loop.
As far as his power being too weak, I would agree before the latest bottle capacity increase without add-ons. Now, I think he can stand solid enough without add-ons, although I always bring 2 yellows minimum, regardless of Killer. He has not impressive mobility, but above average. Like Bubba, a dedicated main can squeeze every bit of efficiency out of them, and find out when to use their power for map mobility. Bubba's is at 3 saws, or 2 with certain add-on combos, and Clown is now efficient with hitting all Purples, and he used to need to use some Yellows on himself to net positive distance (either adding to his, or subtracting from Survs) after the reload.
As far as tunneling and camping, 100% disagree. I was consistently winning against Survivors with 80s gens while never bothering to tunnel or camp. (I still consistently win without tunneling or camping, but I used to too.) If someone plays with a certain playstyle or tool or perk or item or add-on, then can't use that thing, they will start losing as either side. That would drop their MMR until they go against people that are roughly the same skill as them once again, without the tool that was previously, what I consider, a crutch. Then eventually that person will improve and adjust.
If a Killer starts playing without tunneling or camping, the mindset of applying pressure is completely different. During tunneling, a Killer has 2-3 Survs on gens until the first Surv is dead (2 when unhooking, 3 when in chase). If the tunneled chase victim is good, most of the map resources are too much for a tunneling Killer to win. During spread pressure, a Killer has 1-3 Survs on gens, and the Survs lack shared knowledge (1 when healing and unhooking and travel to and from, 3 when the healing is done). With the lack of shared knowledge, a Killer can send a new Surv to a deadzone they don't know about, where the Tunnel victim knows they already dropped that pallet. Bringing overwhelming pressure perks in chase cuts this time also, and gen slowdown that requires kicks delays this better slowdown. Essentially Tunneling gives the (good) Survivors 3 gen seconds per real second, but during non-tunneling it only affords Survs 1 gen second per real second. The Survivors may have more real seconds to play, but almost 1/3rd the gen seconds to escape with. This doesn't even account for when multiple Survivors are forced to attempt a rescue or risk an extra state (which good Survivors soak when they know the Killer is tunneling/camping).2 -
This is where I believe we have conflicting views. You believe slow-down is not the reason he is unfun, I believe that exactly.
Clown is only becoming slightly faster, but in no way he is becoming Blight faster or Nurse faster.
Oh well, I think we're just going back and forth infinitely now lmao
The ability to turn fast vaults into medium vaults could still be valid.
Unfortunately, I cannot take just your experience of continuously curbstomping survivors. I understand you may be a strong Clown, but we need to take into account which MMR you play in + your subjective strength. Many players would not be on the same page as you so I would say it's futile to bring up personal experience. We'd need to take several experiences into account (which is what I believe BHVR does with the entire stats system).
Your last paragraph on tunneling, I agree with fully. Not tunneling on clown, however, makes it so you are immediately searching for your next chase after a hook. This can be extremely hard on Clown: if survivors are doing generators the greatest counter to Clown is hiding or pre-running, which causes him to waste time and additionally having the survivor on hook be saved with the Clown risking having no next target, losing all momentum and pressure. This tends to happen often on high MMR.
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The slow removes 15% of 4m/s for 2.5s (plus cloud time). That loses Survivors 1.5+ meters of distance. The vault loses them .4s, or 1.6 equivalent meters of distance. Combined it would yield ~3m. The best you could do instead is force slow vaults, but the equivalent distance loss there is 4m, and that might be too much (without doing some bizarre reverse Resilience vault penalty on top of the forced Medium vault, but then pallets are still only fast or slow vaults without medium). It just seems too finicky to deal with
As far as MMR, if you maintain a high enough winrate as Killer it would impossible to not be in 'top MMR'. It also has the soft loss prevention, where losses don't lose the proper amount of MMR, so once you reach it you can't go below unless you lose at a far greater rate than 50%.
Searching for Survivors is monstrously easy with Cigar box, and you get soooooo many free hits from people not realizing until too late that you have it. It hard counters (non-Distortion) stealth unless they are crazy enough to enter a locker, but nobody does that without a perk. Even then, I love Floods+PR, because nobody suspects it. I always dedicate either Cigar or a perk to intel though, so finding Survs isn't an issue.1 -
These changes are too much. Clown's power right now is around where you'd ideally want it to be. I'd much prefer seeing them just separate the Antidote and Tonic Bottles into 2 individual capacities.
Clown right now is all about anticipating the Survivors next options in chase and limiting how many they have and how effectively they can utilise those options. This leads to a lot of people misplaying Clown and wasting Bottles by spamming without forethought.
These changes take that aspect away from him and turn him into a slow burner that gives Survivors too much control over how his power affects the gameplay loop. Yes, I agree Clown is hurt by map size, but so is every non-mobility Killer in DBD. It has nothing really to do with him exclusively. Clown is hurt more by tile RNG than a Survivors skill level more than anything. Coz not many people really know how to counter Clown consistently. Most just blag there way in matches Vs him, getting lucky on rotating back to a pallet or vault in a chase with him. I very rarely see Survivors intelligently out predicting a Clown or forcing the Clown to make mistakes. Also, Clown is nowhere near as weak as everyone claims. I'd put Clown B tier. A player that knows how to play him and has a loadout that compliments him, definitely allows his strength to shine.
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