Play With Your Food Favors Already Fast Killers + Suggestion
The clown's bottles do not remove pwyf stacks upon use. Considering his recent buffs (as of 7.6.2), this makes him one of the best users of pwyf.
Consider the following haste build (which I've tested myself):
Cheap gin bottle (3% haste), sticky soda bottle (2% haste), play with your food (up to 15% haste), rapid brutality (5% haste), save the best for last (attack cooldown), and batteries included (5% haste). Remember, antidote bottles provide 10% haste by default.
At its best, this build has the potential to provide up to 35% haste to the clown. On average, you're more likely to only gain 20 to 25% haste with this build. At its worst, you're still guaranteed 15% haste for free because of the addons alone (that's the same as tier 3 bloodlust). Combined with save the best for last, this build is killer (pun intended).
I also noticed that the blight doesn't lose pwyf stacks while rushing without attacking. Similarly, the Nurse doesn't lose stacks by blinking without attacking. I'm not sure why these speedy killers are shown such favoritism, but they don't need the extra speed from pwyf. At this rate, they might as well give them a Lightning McQueen skin since they can literally run over survivors (I'd buy it). Meanwhile, the Cenobite's chains remove stacks despite not removing any health states directly. If any M1 killer used the build described above, they could only reach a maximum of 20% haste with full stacks of pwyf, which is unlikely. My point is, pwyf should favor relatively slower M1 killers and it should be reworked accordingly.
Maybe they could make it so that you can keep all stacks of pwyf for 2/4/6 seconds after a successful basic attack but lose a stack after that time passes. Meanwhile performing basic or special attacks remove one stack immediately. Additionally, they could make it so that killer powers which provide speed/haste count as special attacks. Furthermore, hitting an intoxicated survivor could count as a special attack and would prevent the extra pwyf time and stbfl stack gain. Similarly, for the Cenobite, hitting a survivor with a basic attack while they are chained (including chain hunt chains) would count as a special attack; engineer's fang should also count as a special attack. However, hitting a survivor with a normal chain would not count as a special attack by itself.
Comments
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Clown doesn't have the time to find the obsession and lose chase with them multiple times. This is just theory crafting. Clown gets spooky scary 135% haste or whatever. Then he gets 130% haste or when he hits someone. Then 125. Then 120. He's still vulnerable to predropping, camping pallet like always. Like when's the last time you even saw PWYF? I've literally only ever seen it on Myers. Why would you want to further nerf an already niche perk?
And what do you mean 15% haste "for free"? You're using addon slots. That's not free. You'd have to forgo his best add-ons to run a bizzare niche chasing build.
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A clown that runs both invigoration addons + PWYF is essentially putting all his eggs in one basket, and it's a meme build. That Clown would do much better running cigar box + garish makeup kit or bleach + chloroform with slowdown perks.
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Like I said, I've tested this Clown build in public matches. I'm not theorizing, I'm explaining how most of my matches went. That's what I meant when I said, "On average, you're more likely to only gain 20 to 25% haste with this build". That's 15% from his bottles + maybe one stack of 5% from pwyf, and maybe 5% from batteries included. Also, I completely forgot to mention that his purple bottles do about 5% hindered on survivors, that might as well be a 5% haste for Clown on top of everything else.
If a survivor pre-drops a pallet at the start of the game, you can drop a yellow bottle on it, kick it, and catch up with the equivalent of tier 3 bloodlust (despite having kicked the pallet), or drop chase to pressure a 3 gen. If you always hook a survivor near a 3 gen, you're basically guaranteed to gain pwyf or stbfl stacks. If someone leads you away from the 3 gen, you can use batteries included to gain 5% haste to get a hit or down. You can also drop chase with the obsession quicker by using yellow bottles and you don't lose pwyf stacks for kicking pallets.
Also, I don't think you realize just how much 15% haste by itself actually is on a 4.6 killer. You can consistently use his bottles right before starting chase, kicking a pallet, wall, generator, or picking up a survivor. He doesn't even need to find a locker to reload, that's what I mean by "for free". Most other killers can't even reach a total of 15% haste at any point in time, let alone 35%.
Don't even get me started on Myers, he deserves a separate discussion.
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But meme builds are fun lol. In my experience, off-meta builds throw people off most of the time. Isn't that healthy for any game?
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Who even needs PWYF when clown can like 50% faster than survivors BASEKIT?
It doesn't matter if power not loses PWYF stack, ultimately you have to hit twice to get a down, and every killer except one shotters are pretty much bad user of PWYF.
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Basekit yellow bottles provide 10% haste. That would make the Clown 26.5% faster than survivors, not 50%. However, by using the build described in my original post, you can become almost 40% faster than survivors with the Clown.
This is why I think reworking the clown and the cenobite's powers into different special attacks might be a balanced nerf to such a speed build. Although, this is probably too much to ask for.
The main idea here is that, pwyf and/or killer powers should be buffed/reworked to favor m1 killers who also lack speed. Admittedly, my solution might not be the best but I'm open to ideas.
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Clown isn't the best user of PWYF the killers with instant downs who don't lose stacks for mobility are because they can use stacks more efficiently or need a hit to get the ball rolling, id say oni / bubba / myers use it better than clown can ever hope to
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Imagine if you could damage someone by filling up a bar on the Survivor with your M2 that also applied Broken when injuring them, and that Killer also didn't lose PWYF stacks when using that M2. That would be crazy and even more broken.
Clown used to drop PWYF stacks on bottle toss, so I think its a bug. You should probably report it as a bug thread instead.
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I actually never play as those killers so I wasn't sure how pwyf interacts with them. Why should insta down killers with mobility benefit more from extra speed when slower killers could use the boost?
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Its just about whats an offensive action, if it can directly injure survivors then its an offensive action + a few exceptions, thats just how the perk works blight and nurse do no damage unless they attack and thus lose no stacks unless they attack
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Sounds like something the Plague would be capable of. Though, I'm not sure if that's how it works, I haven't unlocked her yet.
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Sounds like I don't want more people abusing that perk being bugged on a Killer I would refuse to call out by name.
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Clown is meant to be used with haste AND slow, not just one.
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You're right, I forgot to take that into account before. If we consider purple bottles as haste for the clown, that will make him 32% faster than the survivor. You can use the following equation to determine any killer's speed with various haste percentages (you should try it):
Base-kit haste in addition to killer speed: 10% yellow + 5% purple + 100% = 115% → 1.15 Default clown speed: 4.60 m/s Clown speed with bottle haste: 1.15 * 4.60 m/s = 5.29 m/s Running Survivor Speed: 4.00 m/s Difference between clown speed relative to survivor speed: (5.29 / 4.00) - 1.00 = 0.3225 → 32%
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This is a non issue. Even getting 1 stack already takes quite a bit of work because you need to find the obsession and start a chase with them. For a killer like Clown, who has no mobility, this is a big time investment. Not to mention a perk they cannot use for something else. Like slowdown.
To fix this you could bring Nemesis but even that has a lot of counterplay and it's 2 perks wasted at that point. It doesn't get better, if you use more perks for that and getting more than 1 stack of PWYF on Clown takes forever. You'll easily spend 30 seconds just chasing and getting stacks without actually hitting or downing anyone. On top of the time it takes to even find the obsession. Then you still need to chase, which takes about another 15 seconds at best. So your chase takes about 45 seconds and now you have 1 stack left. That is terrible.
Your math is off. Movement speed modifyers are not added but multiplied.
So for Clowns max movement speed you get: (3x5%+100%) x (100% + 10%) x 115% = 145% = 5.8 m/s, which sounds very impressive on paper but is actually not that good considering it takes a lot of set up and is reduced as soon as you land a hit or the yellow bottle effect wears off.
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This is the first time I'm hearing about this. Btw, I think you accidentally multiplied 145% by 4.00 (survivor speed) instead of 4.60 (clown speed); unless speed modifiers also override the killer's base movement speed to 4.00 (idk, now I'm confused). Also, I'm assuming 3x5%+100% represents pwyf stacks, but I'm not sure where you're getting 100%+10% or 115%. Please enlighten me, this math ain't mathing.
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I factored in the 115% of the survivor movement speed for Clown as the third multiplyer, so that makes no difference. You'll often see people refer to 4.6 m/s killers as 115% killers because that's their movement speed relative to a survivor's speed.
Each modifyer is calculated on their own and then multiplied. 115% for the killer's movement speed, 3x5%+100% for the 3 stacks of PWYF and of course the 100%+10% for the yellow bottle.
So we get: PWYF modifyer x yellow bottle modifyer x killer speed modifyer relative to to the survivor = 115% x 110% x 115% = 145%. Now we multiply it with the reference speed of 4.0 m/s as 100% and get 5.8 m/s.
The 0.6 m/s speed difference between killers and survivors is indeed affected by the modifyers. Hillbilly's old 9.2 m/s speed for example came from his base movement speed being doubled. So his speed was calculated with 200% x 115% = 230%. If they had calculated it with the 100% reference (without considering the speed difference), then it would have been 200% x 100% + 15% = 215% = 8.6 m/s. So the devs consider the total speed and apply the modifyers to that.
I will admit: the part about PFYW could be (100%+5%)^n with n = number of PWYF stacks too but I believe I read somewhere that this is actually added up instead of being multiplied. In case of 3 stacks this would mean roughly 115.7%, so it wouldn't make a big difference anyway but I feel like I should mention it regardless.
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Thank you for taking the time to explain all of this, I understand it much better now. If I use the Clown's base-kit bottles, without pwyf, would the equation look like this:
115% (default clown speed) x 110% (yellow bottle) x 105% (purple bottle) x 4 m/s (default survivor running speed) = 5.31 m/s (clown speed with haste and hindered survivor)
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Why did you factor the purple bottle into Clown's movement speed? That isn't correct because it doesn't change his own speed. Clown's own speed would only be calculated with 110% (yellow bottle) x 115% (Clown's base movement speed) = 126.5% = 5.06 m/s.
The purple bottle only affects survivors, so we'd need to consider that in the speed difference between survivor and killer but not in Clown's own movement speed. For the speed difference we get: 126.5% (Clown's speed with yellow bottle) - 90% (survivor's speed with purple bottle) = 36.5% =1.46 m/s.
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Right, a hindered survivor only affects the speed difference between them and the killer, regardless of the killer's speed. Also, purple bottles do 10% hindered? I thought it was 5% this whole time, oops. After all is said and done, I want to circle back to the meme-clown-haste build from my original post. In a best-case scenario, the haste equation should look like this:
115% (default clown speed) x 110% (yellow bottle) x 105% (batteries included) x 105% (one stack of pwyf or rapid brutality) x 103% (gin bottle) x 102% (soda bottle) = 146.5% or 5.86 m/s
Then, if you use a purple bottle to hinder a survivor, the speed difference would be:
146.5% - 90% = 56.5% or 2.26 m/s
Now that I think about it, replacing the soda bottle with flask of bleach might be better. The addons says "additional 4%" so I'm assuming that would make survivors 86% hindered. If so, it would increase the speed differential slightly. All of that combined with a dead dawg saloon offering (one of the smallest maps) and stbfl would solidify this as a meme build. Similar to scratch mirror Myers with a Lery's offering. In hindsight, this type of build doesn't need a nerf since it's very situational (speed isn't guaranteed outside of bottles). Even the best-case scenario described above requires a specific playstyle which is not always achievable. This build could be countered even if only one survivor brings a sacrificial ward, any map offering, prevents a 3-gen scenario (deja-vu), and if the obsession takes protection hits.
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I guess this is at least partly directed at me.
I'm not sure how the Gin Bottle and Soda Bottle are factored into it. It could be that addons are counted as one modifyer, which would mean they would be combined into 1 x 105%. The difference again would be negligable either way.
The speed sounds pretty good on paper again but it's something that requires quite some set up and you only get 1 hit with that speed. That also doesn't matter, if the survivor can make it to a pallet or window or has an exhaustion perk because then they easily get away from that gen and deactivate Batteries Included when the killer follows them. The truth is that most of this only comes from Clown's own speed and the yellow and purple bottles in combination, which already make him pretty good in chase. The difference is not that severe even with these perks.
In case he'd just barely miss, he now gets the hit but the problem is that he cannot play around dropped pallets very well because they usually create loops that are too safe for him to play around. Loop chaining stays an issue for him too because it makes it almost impossible for him to combine the strength of both of his bottles.
Usually, negative speed modifyers are applied mutliplicative too because otherwise it would theoretically enable decreasing the speed to 0. Since the Flask of Bleach is an addon though, it could be an exception (addons are a lot easier to keep in check than perks) and work in the way you assumed. There is not a whole lot of information on how the specifics work. Much of what I know, I got from here.
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