Why The "Hug Tech" And Other "Techs" Are Good For The Game...
The Hug Tech
With the Hug Tech being removed, Ive seen a lot of claims against it and I feel like a lot of the criticism regarding it is really 1-deminsional since it fails to acknowledge the room for skill expression and map knowledge within DBD.
It's not "uncounterable" like people say, since there are various ways to play around loops to avoid a Hug Teching Blight, the Competitive Scene has done it for a long time.
"It requires no skill or map knowledge" is outright wont since you only slide against that one object, if there is a loop with multiple objects combined, youll slide off the first one and collide with the second way, leading to situations where loops cannot be Hug Teched. Furthermore, different loops have different collision which means that even if a loop is all the same object, you still might bounce off of it or unintentionally slide more than intended.
Removing the Hug Tech will force Blights to play every single loop the exact same way, often in ways that are safe and lead to a hit more often than using a Hug Tech will.
The Stagger/Vault Tech
This was a Tech that got removed, it allowed Survivors to vault during a Stagger if they were close enough to a Window or Pallet during a fall.
I personally believe rewarding either side for map knowledge is important, it let Survivors play a tileset a specific way and get rewarded for it, focusing on precise movement instead of rushing from a fall to get a vault is honestly an amazing idea and should have stayed in the game but it was patched.
Also it was niche, you could only do it on a handful of maps, and often relied on RNG to have the tilesets line of in the correct position to make it possible.
It could also be countered by running loops in a specific direction to avoid running to Survivor into the location where this occurs if it seems like the tech becomes an issue; you can also swing near ledges to recover from the attack during the fall to make more distances and/or get a hit.
Why Techs Are Important
Skill expression is important for games, it gives people a ceiling to reach for, it brings out massive potential for not just a single side but for the counterplay involving the techs themselves.
Ultimately, I fear that removing techs like these will dumb down the game a bit and ultimately create a far worse overall experience.
You could make the argument that "it provides an unfair advantage against people who dont know about these techs" but learning is ultimately apart of the DBD experience, you have to learn how to play two inherently diverse roles and these techs will mostly be utilized by high level players (or high/mid MMR matchmaking suggesting matchmaking works as intended) anyways and does not affect new players.
"But It's Unintended"
Okay and?
Unintended bugs or glitches in games sometimes get added as features in games since they ultimately add more to the game. I can list MANY examples of this:
- TF2 Rocket Jumping ~ Quirk with the Quake 2 Engine added more depth to the game so they added the movement mechanics into TF2 to add more depth to the gameplay, furthermore, a lot of Source Engine jank makes it more dynamic and interesting.
- Terraria Hoiking ~ Placing a block and using a Hammer to slant it has untended effects where it would move players extremely fast in a certain direction based on the direction of the slope. It can also be used to phase through structures; it also applies these effects to enemies, projectiles, NPCs, etc. It was originally a bug but was added as a full on mechanic since people loved it (thanks ReLogic <3 ).
- Warframe's Parkour Mechanics ~ In Warframe, using a slide attack with a melee would have you slide a certain distance, but with certain button inputs, youd slide further. Certain weapons provides a certain amount of slide distance and speed. Warframe eventually added a parkour mechanic based on this, where certain inputs can launch your characters wherever you needed based on your inputs. While the original stuff was technically removed, it inspired a more streamline version that is a universal basekit to all players and does not rely on specific weaponry.
- Battlefield 3/4 G-Sliding ~ When holding a melee, and using certain movement inputs, you could move faster than your standard melee movement speed. This was acknowledged by DICE Games and was removed, but after community backlash, it was added as a mechanic for all players to enjoy, it added more depth to the game and allowed experienced players to traverse maps faster without relying on vehicles.
I can list more…
Point is, it does not matter is something is "intended" or not by the developers. Ultimately, if it adds to the experience, it makes the game overall better.
I enjoy Blight, both playing as and against, but I really enjoy facing an experienced Blight (just as much as Billy). Blight feels like a dynamic Killer that has a lot of room for counterplay if you have the experience and knowledge and I really dont want to see Blight get reduced into a boring Killer for the sake of people not understanding the counterplay.
This extends beyond just Blight.
I want the game to be interesting. I want it to be fun and engaging. I dont want to see the depth this game has be removed, I want it to be explored and embraced more…
But I really do fear that removing the Hug Tech sets a bad example going forwards. What if they start to remove Survivor Techs? What if they remove all Techs? What if the game just has to be played the same exact way every single time? What if experimentation is punished and there is less room to try new things?
The funny thing is, I use to be against stuff like this a few years ago, but my opinion has made a complete 180 over the years since Ive learned and grown a lot.
Comments
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funny how chucky techs were removed in a week but for blight it took like 3+ yeas
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Funny how Chuckys tech had basically no counterplay and allowed for 180 flicks and more with absolutely insane movementspeed whereas the hug tech on Blight can be outplayed and the how to is known to the community for years... It is not really comparable.
That is somewhat similar to the stagger tech, there was not much you could do as killer about it and it could lead to somewhat of an infinite on Ormond if the window spawn was the correct one.
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ok getting absolutely bs hits with hug tech and 10k dpi is fair and balanced and devs should keep it in the game
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Honestly, if there is any kind of a tech, that if it benefits one side and is unintentional, it should be removed, I don't think it's healthy for the game, it can be fun and that’s it, but the other side will not be happy, and this isn’t the first blight tech that’s getting removed, so it’s not something new
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Yea hugtech absolutely should not be removed. Adds so much more depth to the killer as well as skill expression for both sides.
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What has hug tech to do with dpi? When the Blight tries to hug tech you you get quite the warning, because he needs to get close to the object he tries to hug. And then you can decide whether to go wide or close, similar to a Billy trying to curve you. Chucky on the other Hand just out of nowhere, with no warning flicks and hits you 180° and above.
Ask some good Blight players what to do against hug tech and you will see that the situation is not as dire as it looks like, I'm sure someone like Lilith Omen will gladly explain you how to play against it :) Otherwise just keep learning/playing and you will get an idea of what to do :)
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Hug tech does not really benefit the killer side only, it adds a layer of gameplay for both sides and it can be a hit or miss. Hug tech will be inferior to bump logic in most cases and by removing it you will just see Blights going for the saver alternative.
The question that should be asked is not does it benefit one side or does it give an advantage to one side, it should be can the other side do something about it? Does it have counterplay and is the counterplay something good/fun/people are able to pull off. (I can go more into detail about that part if you want)
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I am pro hug tech. It takes a LOT of skill to master, and it should be rewarded. I’m a survivor main, and when a Kill gets that hit, I’m honestly impressed. Just my opinion.
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I'm fine with the bugs as long as people keep them in customs. It isn't fair to deal with the expected functionality of powers not working correctly in normal matches, just as it isn't fair for a permanent extra 2% haste to be on one side. You want to use it with friends or in tourneys, go right ahead, just don't punish normal matchmade games with these bug exploits.
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Okay then here's my counter argument
Instead of asking for a bug to remain unfixed, petition behaviour to add it as a basekit feature.
The reason people aren't and won't do this is because it's unreasonable, you're asking for one of the strongest killers in the game to be buffed and it's obvious it won't happen but imo that's what you should be doing if you're that passionate about it
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Blights hug tech in not good for the game. ITS GOOD FOR YOU.
making the base overpowered killer even more powerful is not a good thing for the game, his base kit alone needs some turn down aside from removing the hug tech. he's a killer that can go across the map is a short time, be everywhere in a short time. with zero punishment. at least he needs to be a 4.4 killer first. and have longer cooldown, simply like spirit she's still a strong killer but she can't be 4.6 and use her power every 2 seconds.
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Could they not have nerfed the mechanic in a way that limits the max look angle you can do etc? Blight was intended to be able to slide along a wall by looking down as said by mc lean. If they add back scoot slide or make it more lenient at corners I have no complaints though with new consistent collision. Old crow (6%) basekit and rework every addon that changes his speed blight doesn't need them.
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This is what my post implies. In fact, I mention games that remove the bug but add it as a feature.
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what about chucky's tech being removed makes him more have more counter-play than before? those two tech's are equivalent. Now question is, when is Wesker's hug tech and Oni's 180 flick tech being removed? That is clearly next target, right? Slushies says that is one of reasons/concerns why she taking a minor break from the game.
In my opinion, these tech are over-sights that killer are using to modify the balance of the killer. In chucky's case, it was negate his poor stearing in slice & dice. Blight hug tech is poor stearing, but also something else. it negates his self 1 second stun when he bumps into something. Like think about Lery's blight where fitting through doorways is tricky but if you look down then you can slide alongside the wall to change your bump logic pathing. Hug Tech for Wesker is like Billy's curving. Straight-line skill turned into jagged line skill. Oni 180 flick removes dead angles on his ability. It is a way to scapegoat his Scalp top knot add-on that got nerfed 2-3 years ago.
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With the 90° you can put yourself in positions where he cannot hit you when you round a corner... So that's definitely more counterplay.
I dont think hug tech on Blight should get removed, I think Wesker techs should not get removed and I don't know about Oni, because it feels his 180° is more unreliable than for example chuckies was.
I mean it is adding depth to the killer, it solely depends on if they have counterplay + if the interaction is fun. Sure oversight can happen, but that does not mean that this stuff needs to get removed... Legion tech was probably an oversight but nobody should even want to remove it... So what is the difference? It has counterplay, is on a weak killer and is very situational.
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With the 90° you can put yourself in positions where he cannot hit you when you round a corner... So that's definitely more counterplay.
but that is no counter-play for the killer. I am saying you can put yourself in positions where you don't need to 90 degree for chucky resulting in the same situation that you allege is no counter-play.
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How is positioning not counterplay?
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I agree that removing skill expression is not always a good thing and sometimes unintended effects should stay, however I think it depends on the tech and how it impacts the game.
For instance with hug tech, while it adds more to the gameplay, it also makes an already powerful killer even more stronger while at the same time going against his whole thing which is bouncing. I do think hug tech was an interesting way to show off skill but unless they nerf Blight in other ways, I can understand why they removed it.
The stagger tech should also not stay because while it was rare it could lead to pseudo infinites in certain maps like Coal Tower and didn’t really require skill or map knowledge in certain scenarios because it was all RNG dependant. I had multiple games where a window would spawn right next to the drop down of a hill. That’s not skill that’s luck. And keeping it would mean going forward they would have to design every map with this tech in mind. I think it’s fair that this was removed.
BHVR has also already kept multiple unintended effects in the game already - trap buffering for instance was a bug but they made it an actual thing. Other techs or unintended things such as 360s, survivor moonwalking, and Forbidden Legion tech as well.
Some techs are good and some aren’t. We shouldn’t keep all techs or remove all techs just for the sake of it. If the benefits outweigh the cons then keep it. Otherwise maybe it shouldn’t exist.
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I agree with this post by OP. If any changes were going to happen for Blight, I would have liked to see it EASIER to understand if you can slide or not slide on an object, or even have a more built in option to slide or not slide off an object.
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My personal opinion on things like this, is if the mechanic is genuinely fun, it should be analysed WHY it is fun, and rolled into the game properly as a logically consistent feature. Keeping in its bugged state is the wrong solution. All of the examples cited were rolled into the game as proper mechanics.
The problem with Hug techs, and why they are divisive, is it betrays the fundamental understanding of how the power works. It may well be fun for high levels of play who are aware of it and understand how the bug works, but as stated by numerous players, it is very tricky, and takes a LOT of time to master.
On Blight specifically, he is a very strong killer, even without Hug tech. Facing him is already hard, so if he also has a mechanic that doesn't make sense as feature of the power, thatbfurther requires hours of labbing and online investigation to even get a decent handle on what is even happening, it makes it very difficult for someone to learn against.
So if Hug tech should stay a thing, roll it as a proper feature that makes sense.
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But it makes sense as part of his power... Hug tech/sliding is the logical consequence of his collision detection that is based on your view angle. Which is quite obvious now that both got removed.
This is the most basic thing about how his collision works... I remember a video made by Lilith Omen where he explains that Blight has two ways to detect collision and this one is the secondary, if I remember correctly.
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Well, I'm not an expert on Blight hug tech, so I wasn't really taking a stance.
My actual point is that if there's a bug that facilitates something unintended, but the mechanic is good, it should be rolled in as proper feature, not left as a bug.
If I were to take a stance on Blight hug tech with my limited knowledge it would be, people understand Blights power to be rushing in mostly straight lines at high speed, and the survivor gameplay is to predict those rushes and be in a position where they can evade each angle of attack. Hug tech allows Blight to turn far more around corner than you would normally expect from this game play loop, and since he can rush so quickly, it comes across as unfair to players who don't understand what is happening.
So instead of it being a weird trick that doesn't make sense, make it a proper feature of the power with its own tell of some description. I don't think that's too controversial a take?
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I am saying that you as killer have no counter-play in those instances where survivor positions in a way you cannot angle the hit.
At same time, Chucky can always position himself in a way where he doesn't need to do 90 degrees to get hits. With chucky in particular, his tech only allowed him to do different type of hits.
In the case of these other tech's, they completely revolutionize how you play those killers and direct buff those killer powers. the killer that i am talking about are Oni, Blight and Wesker.
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No, it is not that controversial, but such techs or nuances don't really get mentioned in the description.
I think this is a logical conclusion by knowing how his collision works, based on look angle. It is hardly arguable that they made the collision detection that way and did not take into account that it would lead to Blight sliding along walls and such.
I mean sure, that s the most basic description there is, but for other killers you could say the same.
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But you can just zone them out of the perfect spot... And then hit them from there on out... Just like you do as Billy with curves... That's the whole gameplay there, the survivor positions himself and you try to lead them into making a mistake and getting a hit, how is this not counterplay.
I dont know if that is true for chucky, when you made it around a corner and he started his dash before then maybe you can dodge it. But I agree somewhat that is power is almost guaranteed to be a hit.
They do become somewhat stronger, but they can still be outplayed even with those.
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the survivor positions himself and you try to lead them into making a mistake and getting a hit, how is this not counterplay.
I don't understand what your talking about. Chucky activating his ability then scampering a pallet immediately → Slice & Dice does not rely on survivor making a mistake. it relies on you making a mistake as Chucky.
When Chucky uses Slice & Dice, he can vault pallets within Slice & Dice window and reset the duration of Slice & Dice. the restricted turning angle made this functionality somewhat useless in many instances because you cannot turn enough after the vault to land the hit. In my opinion, it wasn't good change because it lowered skill-ceiling of the killer. there is less cool hits you can do at loops now. you can still get the hits at loops, but there is less options to do that.
That is unlike other 3 killers that completely rely on those tech to get the hits. Like Blight relies on hug tech to slide off-cars to get hits at loops. it is not something he can do innately.
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I thought you meant in general that positioning is not supposed to be counterplay and not for chucky specifically.
I mean sure, it lowered his options, but it was somewhat stupid that you could get hits this easily, and I still find scamper too strong. At least against the other killers mentioned windows do more.
As Blight you can also use bump logic to try to get the hit, but it relies on other objects being around.
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For Hug Tech, I think it was just something that pushed Blight up too much. I'm not a good Blight player but even I can do some Hug Techs and get hits I would never get with bump logic. There are also some loops where it leaves the survivor with absolutely no counterplay, which I don't think is good. However, I see where you're coming from. It's part of Blight's skill expression and for that reason it's kind of sad that it has to go.
Stagger Vaults were quite problematic. I saw a video of some guy doing it around Mother's Dwelling's main building against some killers and even the 4.6 m/s killers lost chase, which turned it into an infinite. I'm not sure the killers played this perfectly since I didn't see it from their PoV but even the possibility that it might turn some buldings into infinites is dangerous.
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I mean when Blight prepares a hug tech you as survivor can tell fairly easily and most of the time react to it, sure some tiles are basically auto loses, but not every tile can be safe...
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I get that but I don't think lose-lose situations are great when they can be created relatively easy. The survivor didn't make it to a better loop, now they get hit with nothing they can do. Great. I think it's just too much for a killer that is already so strong.
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yes, it is not suppose to be counter-play because it removes counter-play from the killer. the killer has to now avoid said situation and mitigate risk.
I mean sure, it lowered his options, but it was somewhat stupid that you could get hits this easily
why? those hits were more difficult to pull off then what Chucky gets as hits now.
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Great so he just cuts you off instead and you still don't make it anywhere, more boring but same result... You cannot always expect a chance to come out on top, some times all odds are just against you, does not mean that in other situations hug tech isnt a great addition to his kit and offers more interactions.
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180s were not hard, what do you even mean?
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That is a good point and I'm not saying that Hug Tech should never be a thing but with Blight's strength, I feel like it just pushes him over the edge. I think Blight is already so strong with bump logic that anything that makes even stronger is simply too much. We'll see how Blight will do on live servers but I think it will be fine.
I regret that a part of his skill expression will have to be deleted but something had to be nerfed still and with the developers setting precedent of fixing techs for the sake of fixing techs, I think this is the right move.
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I don't know about that, but we will see…let's just hope they don't take as long as with Billy to realise that they made a mistake.
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They just took way too long to do anything.
When a tech like this appears,the best thing a dev can do is either remove it or embrace it,*before* it becomes a big part of the character's skillset.
You can't blame anyone for being upset that it was removed years after the fact.
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Honestly, I disagree.
Blight is already an extremely powerful killer who definitely doesn't need an unintended exploit to perform well. It is a good thing they are removing this "tech".
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Regarding this issue of techs and skill expression, I saw this very interesting video from Justin Wong talking about this very phenomina in fighting games. Fighting games are in my opinion probably the most important games to be talking about skill expression, balance, mechanics and the importance of techs. (Do bear in mind I'm not really a fighting games fan, I just find them interesting from a game design perspective).
I won't colour the opinions of the video, I'll just leave them without context, but I do think the points he makes here are quite relevant to this discussion, evne if it is for another very different gaming media.
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