Regarding the Future of "The Trickster"

In the ptb, he used to have memento blade base-kit. it was a slightly better. i believe it was 0.25 fire-rate. Idk, survivors complained he was too strong. Now he has slightly worse version that is 0.27 fire-rate with add-on. we settled with trickster that is slightly add-on dependent.

My thoughts is that killer have certain base identity and you can manipulate strengths of your identity through add-on's. my point contention with making memento blade/Melicious murder base-kit is that trickster can run add-on's like tequila+waiting watch for you or like trick blade+iri photo card on top of said base-kit. your suppose to be choosing what points of strength you want to focus on with add-on's. Not just have all add-on's base-kit.

trickster is inherent not suppose to be about burst damage. he's chip damage. damage over time. many have assimilated this as ranged legion that inevitable downs you however dev have tried to put a "healing" over-time mechanic in his kit.

I agree that modern day Trickster feels agonizing to play against, hehas this issue where he has PTB Huntress movement speed where he can sit on your back for around 3 loops around shack. I am seeking to solve this "No point to do anything in chase" style, because I find it bogs down his enjoyment factor on both sides.

The Survivor feels they explode and cannot meaningfully get anything from forcing the Trickster to miss

In many instances of trickster, they have tried to lower his laceration timer from 15→10 seconds to reward survivor for LOS his knives but in every instance, the change was always reverted. part of that is that he did not feel powerful enough to warrant healing in the chase.

I sought to nerf it and roll some of that into the base-kit (yet another nerf i'm adding that is not small to make way for better 4 v 1 pressure).

trickster already has good 4vs1 pressure. His main event is an extreme integral part of his map pressure because it allows him to slug survivors and get muti-downs. By slugging survivors and getting muti-down at key opportune moments, he can slow gen down by keeping survivors on the floor. He doesn't have any defence or secondary objective mechanic but he can build his own game-delay. Nuking his main event is nuking 4vs1 map presence.

Heya :) Glad to see ya also makin a post about a potential Trickster update. I know you expected me to not like it, but I actually have some interesting thoughts on this since you're balancing for a 4.4m/s Trickster.

I'ma try not to be as wordy as I normally am on here. (oops)

With the Basekit, I like the combination of 4.4m/s, 5x Meter, and the slowed movement speed while throwing. I think all that combined would make 4.4m/s Trickster feel pretty fair and have a solid foundation. However I don't really know what you mean by 3-4 Ramping Throw Rate.

Where I start to get iffy is the 60 Blades basekit being brought back. Call me a snob, but I really don't like the idea of increasing Trickster's ammo. Personally I got to the point where (before the rework) I was barely reloading anyway, and increasing his ammo kind of decreases the skill requirement for the power in a way I don't really like (semi-encouraging spam)

I'm also not really sure about making haste and action speed bonuses basekit (similar to Hux,) I personally think in the long run this just kind of complicates the kit in a way that I don't think is crazy interesting. Like very few people are gonna be able to tell the difference between normal action speeds vs a 10% faster version, and those who do would probably prefer to just have that basekit. I mentioned it in your stream but I'm at the point of vouching for killers to just do basic actions at different speeds depending on how good their power is for chases specifically.

I won't go into that here tho…. I kinda just think running bamboozle is fine for now. Maybe someday it'll be addressed.

Also, this is a really specific thing, but currently your stats around main event aren't really feasible with how the code for the killer works. Currently Main Event's pocket duration (how long u can hold it before using it) is only set to be 3x the duration of main event. Since main event is 6 seconds that means you can only hold onto it for 18 seconds. I don't think a 20s pocket duration is possible unless you made the duration 5 seconds and made the pocket duration 4x instead of 3x. Similarly add-ons that add to the timer probably won't work additively the way u think.

Speaking of add-ons though, I actually like Watch and Wires a lot. The haste addons seem really useless to me. I'm unsure about how the combo effects of the purple addons work and find them slightly unnecessary (you know im biased against ricochet but I wont bring that to the discussion here since im aware its just a me-thing.) Again I don't like tricksters ammo being increased by a lot so im iffy about the ammo addons. Throw Rate addons are a W. I find it funny that your version of memento blades is the exact opposite of mine. Idk why photocard needed a rework :<

I'll probably shoot u a message later and we can talk more in-depth but thats about all i got to say for now. Love ya homie

I hope all the trickster mains get the trickster they deserve. The recommendations sound good.

This Trickster is not BETTER, he is different yes, and in some ways easier, and in some ways harder. Having a more rare main event is not that hard. 30 may have been too hard for someone who like to pick up Trickster once in a blue moon for a tik tok video, but it was not hard to get with even a little frequent practice on this character. 4.4 is slow. I watch my old videos and I can see that. But he was more lethal with throw rate, and his ramp was more interesting. He can be 4.6 and have a more rare main event, and it can even be half of 30 or even 20…. There are ways to adjust this Trickster so that he feels more like 4.4 without being 4.4 movement speed. In Endzej and Wacek google doc even had a version in there. But for me, if he went back to 4.4, I would celebrate a return of his skill ceiling and no reload. Both as a Trickster main and survivor. But at the same time Im not gonna say this Trickster is bad, cause hes not, hes just weaker where he was already weak, and stronger where he was strong. The benefit of 4.6 is not being outrun around a tiny loop that kind of requires an m1 anyway. And of course map traversal to get to gens. it makes some perks work better. But 4.4 Trickster was more competitive against survivors who know what they are doing, and swfs. So with this Trickster for the average Trickster main, you may hit a wall in mmr that you cant go past unless you have godlike accuracy and game sense. So eventually games will feel stale.

You should definitely keep reading. Even if you dont agree. At least know what the argument is.

That's not what accessible means. Accessible means that players can actually play and do well with a character. Your group of people can play current Trickster, but they'd rather have the previous Trickster back. Current Trickster is accessible to them.

"Rapid fire shots missed don't matter" is very important for accessibility, and should 100% be a thing. The whole concept of rapid fire is the player shouldn't be expected to have 100% accuracy. Rapid fire means you quickly throw a bunch of knives, and try your best to hit as many as possible.

Edit: Also, I've already gone through all these arguments back in the original feedback threads. I'm done here.

Oh my, where do I start here, because I read this thread for a while now, but honestly was a bit hesitent on writing.

First of all, where am I coming from? I'm a Trickster/Ranged main player. I play a lot of Huntress, Artist and Deathslinger as well, but mostly Trickster. Currently having around 1.7k hours in the game, ~1.3k on killer, of that most likely 1k on these four killers. So, I might be one of "Revviums little minority group" of over a hundred of players that enjoys that killer a lot in some peoples opinion.

From my point of view, I'm just a knife throwing enjoyer, I'm nowhere to be as good as Revvium, Wacek or anybody else up there and that's fine.

I still think current Trickster is boring to play though. 90 % of my games are "find a survivor → hit 8 knifes → main event → down/hook → find a survivor…" there is simply no skill or tech or anything needed, Trickster at the moment is as flat as a character can get. And using M1 on Trickster shouldn't be an argument here, it's not like BHVR would suddenly put Huntress, Slinger, Spirit or Hag on 4.6m/s to "make it easier for beginners to pick up that killer". That's a bs argument, you have knifes on Trickster to make up for 4.4 as you have hatchets on Huntress, TP on Hag, phase-walking on spirit, a rifle on Slinger, etc. and that's fine. It was the same with old Tricksters knifes/throwrate.

Do I like what Revvium suggests here? Mostly, yes.

I'm not a huge fan of the combo system in general, even less if you have "bonus abilities" like an extra knife bounce coming from it, even though it's super rare and more a thing for the more skilled/aim-focused players, I think something like that would make the killer too complex on the long run.

On the other hand, I see nobody complaining about the complexity of other killers, like for example the Unknown, because most of his stuff is kinda obvious, but as soon as you figure out what you can do with his ability and that there are options for playstyles most players wouldn't even consider in a lifetime, well, I could also see that being done on other killers. And I'm not talking about addons here.

Unlike the current Trickster the suggestions in this thread would add some skill ceiling again to Trickster that's higher than the floor to pick him up again. You don't need to play every addon or every single feature of his kit to be somewhat decent at a killer and have fun on it. The amount of Demogorgons I've seen that never ever even placed a portal, not even talking about teleporting…

Reworking Trickster like this would still make it possible for new players to pick him up and give the better or more dedicated players something to work on, to explore and improve.

I'm a few weeks late here with sharing this, but maybe somebody is still interested in watching this

"6 months of #RevertTrickster" - a summary of what happened and what the current state is.

It seems that in every rework suggestion I've seen from the Trickster community, the focus always seems to be on rewarding Trickster for knife accuracy instead of spam... and I think this is something BHVR should consider, even if they don't use this rework specifically, it's a direction they might want to consider heading rowards as the core design philosophy of Trickster.

This rework mostly reverts Trickster to his 4.4m/s state (with some number tweaks)... but the real highlight is the combo system that rewards accurate knives building up to your next Main Event.

I like this direction, and I really like the idea of his music ramping up as he builds his combo system.

Losing 1 laceration every 10 seconds though seems a little weird to me... that is so long for the laceration to decay.… or have I misunderstood something?

Been a while since discussing this one, had to re-read to remember what we were talking about. 😅

Upon a re-read (just because simple = more likely to be implemented) one thing I might suggest looking at again is the duration of Main Event for the lower tiers. I realise this rework is about rewarding Trickster for high skill expression, but a 2 second Main Event for D is quite low... maybe a base of 4 and a 0.5s build up? (D:4, C:4.5, B:5, A:5.5, S:6)

When it comes to your combo system (which I still really like), are we taking your best unbroken combo streak that you managed throughout building up your Main Event? The combo bonus I believe is then applied when get Main Event gets fully stacked up, and you then get the bonus for 20s (or until you activate Main Event)?

If this is how it works, that's very cool, like a Devil May Cry combo mechanic, and it's nice that if Trickster has nothing to use Main Event on (like he used to), he gets a map traversal tool instead.

Your extra bonuses to the combo meter are cool, but I might suggest simplifying this to just the chain, as these bonuses make Tricksters combo meter reliant on map rng, and overcomplicates the balance of this mechanic.

I would thus change it so that each laceration decay drops your current combo chain by 1 tier (not the locked in one), then you now have an interesting mechanic that rewards you for pulling off those tricky shots just to maintain the combo. You also have a nice built in counterplay mechanic for camping hooks, since there are 2 survivors, an unhooking/unhooked survivor can block to spread the knives between each other, and now have something to interrupt your combo build up if they survive long enough.

In return, I would probably make the meter go in 2s personally (D:4, C:6, B:8, A:10, S:12), just because this is half your knives supply without more than 1 miss in between. Since your Main Event is 24, if you get a B combo then fail, S is now impossible... but with the revised version, you can get an A combo, and an S combo IS still possible. With your shorter activation windows and the fact B is required just to become a 4.6 killer, I think it's fine for the max ranks to be a little easier.

It would also encourage newer players to pick up Trickster, since the average player wouldn't have a hope of making 16 unbroken hits, but if they are hitting Cs, and Bs... which isn't easy already (especially on console), now 12 doesn't seem completely out there compared to 16.

Regardless, it's still an awesome suggestion!