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Regarding the Future of "The Trickster"
Hello! I'm Revvium, a 1000+ hour Trickster Main and I obsess over this character enough to devote countless hours to his theory crafting and hopefully his future success, I am constantly streaming this character for 10+ hrs a day on my Twitch channel and all i really want out of the future of him is what all of my fellow Trickster players want out of him, the Ji-woon that he was always meant to be.
I've collected feedback from countless Trickster players across my time ranging from Experienced to Beginner and I'd like to share a version of the Killer that accentuates a Trickster that is FUN and exciting, but also a Trickster that people find accessible and welcoming to start with that allows for multiple playstyles, which is something I enjoy about the newest killer "The Unknown" so much.
This is sloppily written, I'm terrible at formatting but I want to speak my thoughts on Trickster, Trickster has been my love and joy for at this point a majority of my time playing DBD. I fell in love with the original since his inception, across his entire existence he's been a point of heated debate due to his volatile nature. I've sought over the course of my time with the character to find a medium that appeals to entry-level as well as the high-end playerbase. With all of that said these changes are my dream rework for The Trickster.
BASEKIT
- 4.4 m/s
- 5 knives to injure
- 60 ammo
- 3-4 ramping throwrate 3.68 - 3.06m/s
- 1.33x multiplier main event
- base duration main event 6 seconds
- 24 Meter Terror radius
- 40 meter lullaby
- 24 knives to activate main event
MAIN EVENT
- Global audio trigger (oni style but musical) when a high combo main event is ready, (Visual on trickster that hes being buffed by combo atm)
COMBO SYSTEM
- If you land a knife past 24 meters - 2x multiplier APPLIES TO LACERATION DMG AND COMBO METER
- If you land a shot through a narrow hole (use an invisible "ALL KNIFE CONTACT POINTS ARE SURROUNDED CYLINDER" detection hitbox for coding - think similar to nemesis whip hitbox detection, but to add a bonus instead of verify if it hit) - 2x multiplier APPLIES TO LACERATION DMG AND COMBO METER - This is a dream mechanic that is more meant to symbolize the interest in rewarding "hole shot" gameplay however i would like to see a spiritual stand in here if this is not possible.
- 2 misses ends the combo and "LOCKS IT IN" visual indicator would provide you with the status of your combo which is spent on the next main event
- COMBO METER (GETS MORE AUDIBLY INTENSE MUSIC AS THE COMBO GOES UP)
20 second activation window (current is 30 sec. before main event fades)
- ~Passive values impact movespeed until next main event finishes OR times out due to not being used~
S- 16(passive 10% haste + 10% action speed bonus action speed if locked in or at current rank)- 6 seconds duration Main event 1.66x + 1 bounce
A- 14(passive 8% haste + 8% action speed bonus action speed if locked in or at current rank) - 5 seconds duration Main event 1.44x + 1 bounce
B- 10(passive 6% haste + 6% action speed bonus action speed if locked in or at current rank) - 4 seconds duration
C- 6(passive 4% haste + 4% action speed bonus action speed if locked in or at current rank) - 3 seconds duration
D- 4(passive 2% haste + 2% action speed bonus if locked in or at current rank) - 2 seconds duration
LACERATION METER:
- Laceration decay 1 "segment" every 10 seconds, starts after 2 seconds of not getting hit by a knife (to give survivors a more dynamic experience where they can visually see laceration fall of of them)
- Each laceration instead goes away upon it reaching the END of its ticmark instead of immediately losing a knife in value whenever it starts (as it does now)
ADDONS:
- ALBUM ADDONS CHANGE TUNE OF LULLABY AND ALL HAVE AN ADDITIONAL "MODE" ASSOCIATED WITH A COMBO
- Reload death throes compilation return (ammo replenished upon main event ending)
- Photocard reworked to buff the combo meter system by 50% (all haste + action speed including passive) (1.5x haste bonus +action speed and main event duration bonuses)
- Cut thru single is unchanged BUT added C-tier combo modifier: hits during a B or higher combo'd main event hit for 150% instead of 50%
- Diamond Cufflinks is unchanged BUT added D-tier Combo bonus to main event that aura reads anyone hit during main event for 6 seconds (current DTC aura read)
- Edge of Revival is unchanged BUT can contribute to combo added B-tier combo bonus to main event that explodes in a 30% larger area
- Trick Blades is unchanged BUT added S-tier (RARE TO GET) combo bonus to add an additional bounce to main event (this would be 4 bounces in total)
- Bloody Boa is 16 knives instead of 8
- Fizz spin soda - REVERT, reduces the knives required to reach full "ramp up" by 2
- Melodious Murder -unchanged
- Ripper Brace - REWORK, Main Event activation window duration (when you have the passive haste + action speed from combo) increased by 10 seconds
- Waiting for you Watch - REWORK, TOO MANY MAIN EVENT ADDONS - when survivors laceration meter hits 0, they scream and interrupt their current action and have their aura read for 6 seconds
- Caged Heart Shoes - REWORK, Encourages self-destructive gameplay and backrevving (not fun for survivors) - Lacerating a survivor in main event gives a 10% haste bonus for 2 seconds
- Ji-woons autograph - REVERT reduces the knives required ot reach full "ramp up" by 1
- Lucky Blade - REWORK, TOO MANY MAIN EVENT ADDONS - when survivors laceration meter hits 0, they become oblivious for 20 seconds
- On-target-single - REWORK, Main event activation window duration (when you have the passive haste + action speed from combo) increased by 5 seconds
- Tequila Moonrock - Unchanged (note- putting more into combo system which this affects adds a buff to this which offsets the nerf to how often you see main event)
- Inferno Wires - REWORK, TOO MANY MAIN EVENT ADDONS - During Main Events activation window - Action speed is increased by 30% (helps with shack)
- Killing part Chords - REWORK, currently redundant and boring - Lacerating a survivor during main event gives a 5% haste bonus for 2 seconds
- Memento Blades - Increases lacerations required to injure survivors by 4, Increases throwrate by 50%: 4.5KPS-6KPS (NOTE: similar math but inefficient ammo if people want a rapid style but are ok with the cost)
- Trick Pouch is 10 knives instead of 4
I know this is all a lot to take in and I just want to say i've spent so much of my recent time with this character and being heartbroken at his current version because it heavily incentivizes M1ing as a "solution" to his bad tile situations, I think modern day photocard has really opened my eyes and showed me that it's possible to have a 4.4 trickster that truly feels special and is about his POWER instead of his ability to zone you into his m1.
I love the knives, you love the knives- WE LOVE THE KNIVES. Lets get Trickster into a state where our lovely knife slinging boy is himself again.
Thank you for reading, I'm hoping for the best. COOK WELL DEVS I AM SO NERVOUS! - Revvium <3 😰
Comments
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Looking back at this I think the action speed passive I gave the combo system could be doubled, 4% action speed seems pretty low so i'd probably just keep the haste the same on that and double the action speed bonuses. Besides that my rereads of my own writeup I spent all night on I feel are pretty spot on what I think. My logic on the action speed bonuses and haste is because of 2 impasses i came to when playing Trickster:
- He heavily relies on Bamboozle to access a lot of tiles with his power, most Tricksters without bamboozle will lose outright if they try to approach these tiles due to his current ( and I believe solveable) lack of map pressure besides his 1v1
- He feels like he needs some punishable ability but on the flipside something for the survivors to play around while also not cutting his ranged pressure down to ignoreable status outside of being his primary target
I believe the Action speed and haste bonuses accentuate the old 4.4 shell to give a well rounded experience that feels like a "tide of danger" experience, which I LOVED about old Trickster so much. While also not requiring basekit knives to be nerfed to make way for flat high movement speed. Trickster should be able to cause fear with his presence to multiple survivors, and not just the one in his sights. While also not feeling like he has to constantly be anxious in order to down people at extremely fast speeds.
I believe the listed collection of features provides a more well-rounded experience of ranged killer that gives people that knife-only playstyle while also allowing room for people to amp themselves into a temporary 4.8 m/s m1 if they are really looking for that, but the depth that the combo system provides I believe could make Trickster truly captivating from both the Trickster's perspective AND the Survivors perspective.4 -
this is way too complicated. a more simple fix is
Melodious Murder: Decreases the survivors laceration capacity by -1.
Now you can use Melodious Murder to have 7 knives which is close to 6 knives for old trickster. They have still yet to fixed memento blade animations. throwing animation has been bugged with this add-on. they have yet to fix it.
I think trickster is fine. I play a lot. he's my favourite ranged killer. His memento blades having a bugged animation is my main grip on him. I think other complaint that Wackey has about new trickster is that you cannot punish animation locks. If you had Melodious Murder+Memento blades(without animation bugs), this could be play-style for trickster that revolves around using two add-on for animation locks. Other than relying on main event for animation locks to punish animation locks, he plays fine.
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This change unfortunately does not address any concerns both me and Wacek (who agrees with my assessment) have with the current Trickster, and makes him more addon dependent. There was a version of Trickster back in the day that had Yumi's murder (Melodious Murder as it's called today) as a -1 to laceration meter addon, this addon was awful and required for the same reasons modern day memento blades is.
Core-kit problems need Core-kit solutions, Melodious murder going back to a previous version that they already found an issue with in the past (because it was mandatory for good feeling gameplay and allowed for little addon diversity) does not feel good and doesn't attempt to solve an over dependence on Bamboozle for window vaults which every long playtime Trickster feels forced to run against players who are skilled at combating Trickster.
Wacek is my peer, I always try to involve him, Endzej, Gorbo, Brandon (Worstdwight) and the other Trickster mains in my takes when given the chance. We've always wanted base-kit solutions to Tricksters dependency on a select few playstyles. My post seeks to alleviate those concerns without making Trickster overwhelming in chase and also give a swath of addons that can now be played with because they do not largely fiddle with the base-kit without sizeable downside if high impact.
Thanks for commenting on the post and giving your thoughts - Revvium <32 -
I just wish they would add some kind of meaningful counterplay to trickster. It's so boring playing against a killer that just spams knives at you and regardless of skill level they will down you eventually. Like yeah, he isnt strong because of how long it takes, but there's nothing a survivor can realistically do in chase besides w to the other side of the map where gens arent being progressed. The current iteration of trickster is an instadodge every time for me. I never dc vs any other killer for any reason. I just cant be bothered to play into trickster. I am not entirely convinced he needs these buffs. If I had my dream trickster rework it would involve giving him the hag treatment. Just accept that the idea did not pan out and will not be popular and let it go off into the sunset.
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In the ptb, he used to have memento blade base-kit. it was a slightly better. i believe it was 0.25 fire-rate. Idk, survivors complained he was too strong. Now he has slightly worse version that is 0.27 fire-rate with add-on. we settled with trickster that is slightly add-on dependent.
My thoughts is that killer have certain base identity and you can manipulate strengths of your identity through add-on's. my point contention with making memento blade/Melicious murder base-kit is that trickster can run add-on's like tequila+waiting watch for you or like trick blade+iri photo card on top of said base-kit. your suppose to be choosing what points of strength you want to focus on with add-on's. Not just have all add-on's base-kit.
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The great thing to note is that I nerfed his movement speed by a lot to make way for these changes, instead making his performance required in order to get the modern day movement speed!
I agree that modern day Trickster feels agonizing to play against, he has this issue where he has PTB Huntress movement speed where he can sit on your back for around 3 loops around shack. I am seeking to solve this "No point to do anything in chase" style, because I find it bogs down his enjoyment factor on both sides.
- The Trickster feels forced to rush down one target and kill them as fast as possible because there's no lasting pressure from knives
- The Survivor feels they explode and cannot meaningfully get anything from forcing the Trickster to miss
- The Trickster feels that they never get to take ranged shots because they're always on the survivors back, but the knives had to be nerfed drastically to make way for this leading to a less-enjoyable experience and not for any notable FUN tradeoff on either side
I sought to fix the first issue by adding more value to the decay system and felt the previous movement speed allowed for a good dose of "Zone control" akin to Huntress but still with less considerable range so you don't feel AS threatened from them aiming at you, adjustments added to make space in bridging this gap so that he's not just a "worse Huntress" as he's been notated as a lot in the past.
The second issue I wanted to solve was Survivors feel like they instantly detonate and cannot have a fun or engaging time in chase, I think the frequency of Main Event and movement speed gave way to this frustration from both sides- thus I sought to nerf it and roll some of that into the base-kit (yet another nerf i'm adding that is not small to make way for better 4 v 1 pressure).
The third issue was that I felt Trickster never lost distance in general, and this leads to him feeling less ranged and makes him confusing to fight as well, if you're always at threat of the M1 well now you don't just have an issue where he can only target one person down at a time with very little counterplay, you also have to factor so many things into your chase; main event, m1, basekit knives, etc. This feeling sucks, and Trickster never feels like a ranged killer due to this addition with the 4.6 m/s rework, i seek to solve this bad feeling of him feeling "Melee".
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I also wanted to push his movement speed while raising knives EVEN LOWER than the 6 knife 4.4 version, I love the "punish window" that Huntress has when she misses her Hatchet because the Survivors can use this opportunity to find better cover but it also comes with Huntress having better instantaneous damage than Trickster, I personally feel we've lost the entire sight of this mold and Trickster doesn't feel like he mimics this extremely enjoyable gameplay loop at all anymore.
The current version is so disappointing but bringing him back to a fun ranged experience takes work, I've made a ton of changes to the base-kit that shouldn't be overlooked, movement speed is very touchy on Trickster so you cannot simply nerf the "raised knife" movement speed by .8 meters per second at highest ramp without a notable tradeoff, a tradeoff that I think would pay off in gameplay enjoyment significantly on the Trickster's end (because he feels rewarded for being accurate at mid ranges as well as close) and on the Survivors end because if you force the Trickster to miss or make a good read, you are rewarded with distance and feel you can get away if you make the clutch play.1 -
I think the notable nerfs I made to the movement speed basekit, both when raising knives and when not are very important to the philosophy of my pitch, I don't just want Trickster to be easier. I want him to feel better through some adjusted power in various areas.
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trickster is inherent not suppose to be about burst damage. he's chip damage. damage over time. many have assimilated this as ranged legion that inevitable downs you however dev have tried to put a "healing" over-time mechanic in his kit.
I agree that modern day Trickster feels agonizing to play against, hehas this issue where he has PTB Huntress movement speed where he can sit on your back for around 3 loops around shack. I am seeking to solve this "No point to do anything in chase" style, because I find it bogs down his enjoyment factor on both sides.
The Survivor feels they explode and cannot meaningfully get anything from forcing the Trickster to miss
In many instances of trickster, they have tried to lower his laceration timer from 15→10 seconds to reward survivor for LOS his knives but in every instance, the change was always reverted. part of that is that he did not feel powerful enough to warrant healing in the chase.
I sought to nerf it and roll some of that into the base-kit (yet another nerf i'm adding that is not small to make way for better 4 v 1 pressure).
trickster already has good 4vs1 pressure. His main event is an extreme integral part of his map pressure because it allows him to slug survivors and get muti-downs. By slugging survivors and getting muti-down at key opportune moments, he can slow gen down by keeping survivors on the floor. He doesn't have any defence or secondary objective mechanic but he can build his own game-delay. Nuking his main event is nuking 4vs1 map presence.
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trickster already has good 4vs1 pressure. His main event is an extreme integral part of his map pressure because it allows him to slug survivors and get muti-downs. By slugging survivors and getting muti-down at key opportune moments,
4v1 pressure that only exists if survivors make the mistake of grouping up and going down near each other is not 4v1 pressure. What you are describing is slug pressure. Unlike killers like nurse, oni in power, blight, etc who actually have 4v1 pressure: trickster cannot start new chases easily. He has to waddle around the map to find people, which gives survivors plenty of opportunities to get to safety or just hide until he goes away and they can rescue people from the floor. That is not map pressure or 4v1 pressure/
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Heya :) Glad to see ya also makin a post about a potential Trickster update. I know you expected me to not like it, but I actually have some interesting thoughts on this since you're balancing for a 4.4m/s Trickster.
I'ma try not to be as wordy as I normally am on here.(oops)With the Basekit, I like the combination of 4.4m/s, 5x Meter, and the slowed movement speed while throwing. I think all that combined would make 4.4m/s Trickster feel pretty fair and have a solid foundation. However I don't really know what you mean by 3-4 Ramping Throw Rate.
Where I start to get iffy is the 60 Blades basekit being brought back. Call me a snob, but I really don't like the idea of increasing Trickster's ammo. Personally I got to the point where (before the rework) I was barely reloading anyway, and increasing his ammo kind of decreases the skill requirement for the power in a way I don't really like (semi-encouraging spam)
I'm also not really sure about making haste and action speed bonuses basekit (similar to Hux,) I personally think in the long run this just kind of complicates the kit in a way that I don't think is crazy interesting. Like very few people are gonna be able to tell the difference between normal action speeds vs a 10% faster version, and those who do would probably prefer to just have that basekit. I mentioned it in your stream but I'm at the point of vouching for killers to just do basic actions at different speeds depending on how good their power is for chases specifically.
I won't go into that here tho…. I kinda just think running bamboozle is fine for now. Maybe someday it'll be addressed.
Also, this is a really specific thing, but currently your stats around main event aren't really feasible with how the code for the killer works. Currently Main Event's pocket duration (how long u can hold it before using it) is only set to be 3x the duration of main event. Since main event is 6 seconds that means you can only hold onto it for 18 seconds. I don't think a 20s pocket duration is possible unless you made the duration 5 seconds and made the pocket duration 4x instead of 3x. Similarly add-ons that add to the timer probably won't work additively the way u think.
Speaking of add-ons though, I actually like Watch and Wires a lot. The haste addons seem really useless to me. I'm unsure about how the combo effects of the purple addons work and find them slightly unnecessary (you know im biased against ricochet but I wont bring that to the discussion here since im aware its just a me-thing.) Again I don't like tricksters ammo being increased by a lot so im iffy about the ammo addons. Throw Rate addons are a W. I find it funny that your version of memento blades is the exact opposite of mine. Idk why photocard needed a rework :<
I'll probably shoot u a message later and we can talk more in-depth but thats about all i got to say for now. Love ya homie
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slug pressure is 4vs1 pressure. your affecting multiple survivors at the same time from being able to complete generators. normally slugging is not that good as game-delay mechanic because it takes more time for killer to do isolated chase downs then it does for survivor to pick-up but in trickster's case, his machine gun allows him to get quick downs in ME. he can use ME as game-delay.
Map mobility is ability move around the map and how quickly you begin chases. map mobility /= map pressure but you can use map mobility to generate map pressure in some instances(Like using pop to slowdown gens).
4v1 pressure that only exists if survivors make the mistake of grouping up
A very large portion of killer gameplay is based around survivor making mistakes. what about hook camping? when you hook someone, eventually someone has to come to the save. an unhook means two people nearby. when two people are on the floor simultaneously, you do not need to move around the map. the survivor will come to you.
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The combo fire up meter I imagine would lead to an eventual climactic main event and then start over at 0, something to give the fantasy of Trickster doing a grand performance and allowing him to place main events in optimal positions - allowing him to be proactive instead of purely waiting around for people to mess up.
I appreciate the feedback here, I agree with most of what you said but if his base-kit were to have less ammo than 60 - i'd love to still see boa be 16 and trick pouch be 10, it just felt like the addons had purpose besides "sometimes you maybe get an extra health state" and "oh sometimes you maybe get half an injure per reload" there's a lot of underpowering of ammo addons because the design had less ammo, but that really shouldn't speak to how much the addons are weighted against each other Trick pouch at 4 and Boa at 8 will always be less valuable than the more notable Trickster addons and no amount of fiddling can fix that, I like the value of his purples and Photocard, it would be a shame to see them bring addon power down just for the sake of convenience.
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I'm also being informed that ramp up reached full slowdown after 30 consecutive throws? I would want that to ramp up after around 15 knives, allowing for more impact, but way less movement speed. I find that the current version of Trickster is too hard to lose in chase, but his power level was also adjusted to be less satisfying as a result.
Again similar to the satisfaction of getting hits with Huntress, and PTB testing of "Raised hatchet throwing speed" being precedent for why high movement speed on a ranged killer can feel very bad for BOTH parties, not just the survivor.
The slowdown should also be synchronized with the movespeed reduction on a flat scale, the higher throwrate- the lower movement speed.0 -
I hope all the trickster mains get the trickster they deserve. The recommendations sound good.
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The Trickster rework single handedly ruined my enjoyment of this game. He was my favorite character pre-rework. All he needed was some QOL adjustments and small buffs to make him better to play and instead they gutted him. I firmly believe that anyone that still plays him is doing so solely out of emotional attachment, because there is no other reason to play this Killer over Huntress anymore from a gameplay standpoint. He accomplishes absolutely nothing.
There is no point in using his power instead of going for an M1, ever. The only time you use it is when you're close enough for an M1 anyway, just so you can proc Main Event which is a boring, skilless ability that guarantees a bunch of health states for free. Absolutely meaningless. The only reason anyone would use his power is because they're willing to put themselves at a disadvantage in order to experience the aesthetic of the character they loved, which is sad and depressing.
All BHVR did was take away any of the enjoyment his players got from playing him, while alleviating none of the frustration Survivors have playing against him. It was bad enough being insulted and hated by salty Survivor players just for wanting to play my favorite Killer, but now that still happens but I can't even enjoy playing him anymore either. It actually makes me feel bad. I've been trying so hard ever since his rework to dedicate myself to learning how to have fun with him still, but it just isn't happening. I just can't even enjoy this game anymore, despite trying so hard to. Don't know why the devs refuse to be communicative about these things. They're content to just let their playerbase fester in misery for months and years on end.
But hey, he got some new cosmetics right? Guess that's all that matters.
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I could not have stated my frustration any better than this, I've felt like they killed his identity and I continue playing him because he's part of me with the HOPE that one day they come back to him and set him back to the state where he feels himself again. at the moment he feels without a soul, and the most depressing thing is being invalidated in this respect by people telling me he's "Fine" I DONT WANT FINE I want the version that gives me enjoyment, not just the thing that nets me the highest 4k streak without time investment or agency from the other side.
Thank you for speaking your mind on this, I could not agree more.2 -
With old Trickster, I could lose games and still have tons of fun. With new Trickster, I can win games while feeling absolutely no enjoyment whatsoever. Viability is meaningless. If I only cared about viability I'd just be a Nurse main. The point is the unique fun and niche of each Killer. But BHVR just doesn't seem to understand that. They want to gut things in the name of "balance" but don't even accomplish that, because Survivors still hate him anyway. It's just depressing. No amount of cope seem to help at this point.
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I made a Diskcussion in the ptb feedback about that behavior should finally acknowledge failures. I mentioned trickster and Sadako in there maybe you want to write some feedback in there about trickster.
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I'll take a look at it, thanks. Ultimately I don't really care if they admit the faults on the matter in any degree, but I'm not gonna act like this version was any more interesting nor satisfying than 6 knife 4.4 was.
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I have 5,2k hours in this game and I had to read through the combo thing like 3 times to understand it. I dont think this is a good sign.
I think there are just too many different combos. The idea of rewarding the trickster for multiple knives in a row is great, dont get me wrong but the S, A, B, etc thing is too much
Imo there should be one combo thing that adds effect(s) and thats it.
The range multiplier is also great, doubt it will ever happen tho. They werent even able to change Irisdescent head to activate after a certain travel distance for some weird reason
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The game already has all of the combo's i've listed. This is a current mechanic in the game it is just under elaborated.
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And so i went to the liberty of describing how the current combo mechanic works, and made it more accessible because as it stands its REALLY HARD to utilize which makes it feel like it's an afterthought, but it achieves too little and his main event addons achieve TOO MUCH. Thus i wanted all players to be able to experience the system, it sounds complicated on paper, but after adding sound compliments and visuals it should be far more easy to access- similar to how guitar hero or rock band incentivize you with the "Groove" and "on fire" mechanics.
In addition, we already have a score event tied to "Long range hits" so the seed is there to put extra damage on top of it, we also have precedent despite your reservations relating to Huntress. Deathslingers "Iridescent Coin" is a range-based application effect. We have the foundation already for this to be given to Trickster.1 -
After thinking about this for a week or two I have two thoughts. My first is there should be some kind of reward if you make trickster miss. If the number of knives he needed to land was lowered, but also the number of knives he had was massively lowered it would make it more enjoyable. Playing into huntress is fun because you are rewarded for skillful plays. Make her miss 5-7 hatchets (which lets be real should never be happening unless she is actually getting out played) get rewarded with extra distance during the reload animation. The idea that trickster just has a pretty much unlimited number of knives in chase with no downtime is a pretty terrible feeling. There should be times when the killer feels strong in chase and when the survivor has the advantage. Most killers in the game follow this loop. The easiest examples to see are oni and plague. When oni has power its pretty much a free down and theres very little counter play, which feels frustrating, but its balanced by the fact that really 3 generators should be completed before handing out that first hit. Trickster is just strongish all of the time. There's never really a time during Tricksters chase where you have agency as survivor to express looping ability. My second is just the entire concept of main event. The current iteration of main event is just…terrible…
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I agree on pretty much all points you've given, Main Event as it stands is far too noninteractive from both Trickster's side as well as Survivor's side and that's a big reason why I find its quite unfun to try to make use of. I like it being a big "oh crap" moment on the survivors perspective, but if you get that moment every chase… well that surprise scare is lessened by a mile. On Trickster's end it is no longer a "Main Event" because you get it back every 4 seconds with no feeling of being rewarded for consistently good performance, all of the changes i've made seek to alleviate these frustrations.
I used to love playing against Trickster, he's thrilling, he makes you play on your toes, he makes you run for your life without regard for what's happening on the map at any given point. After the rework I miss playing against the old version because he felt satisfying to intelligently avoid before, I felt the old version delivered such a fun experience and had more counters in chase! its clear to me now that the old version needed EXTRA added onto it to help it out instead of just making his chase something he HAS TO WIN or he just fizzles out.
In addition to this if I show up in an area nowadays and I can't find them it's often good riddance for the hopes of having agency in the match. All of the agency of this killer resides exclusively in your current chase, and even within that area the Agency feels like 8 knives then instantly press "Ctrl" which has also left by pinky in shambles. I miss ramping up into Trickster laughing hysterically, I miss his personality, I miss being not bugged and having Trickster wink within the lobby screen.We lost so much soul in this character, and to that extent it pains me so much to see him in this state with radio silence for what will be done about it (if anything at all). All of my peers share the same sentiment but we're lost without a shepherd. From the bottom of the Trickster community's heart we all just want to ask with deepest sincerity. The very least that can be done is #RevertTrickster , I've seen some of my best friends in the community quit because they no longer have a character to come back to.
Still hoping for the best, Revvium0 -
I've genuinely heard sentiment and have had discussion with a number of these top playtime Trickster's and we genuinely miss the 6 knife 4.4 version. That version should be the baseline that modern Trickster should be built on, It was genuinely hard to get some of the feedback from these players because some of them don't speak a language we share in common (the top player "Geugjigo" speaks Korean, Ayano speaks Russian for example) but i've done my best to amass community sentiment without trying to interject my personal opinion. A lot of these players have posted #RevertTrickster on social media, namely Littlerugaard, Wacek134, and myself off the top of my head, Geugjigo has expressed sentiment that he's confused why the killer has gone in a 4.6 m/s direction instead of doubling down on Trickster's unique aspects.
The general jist i want to clarify is the vast majority of Trickster players want him back to his 6 knife shell at the very least, and to add improvements on top of that, it's been 4 months since i've gathered this sentiment but honestly it seems a lot of that has gone unnoticed by the community in favor of public facing people who do not play Trickster all that often.
Since the changes a number of previous Trickster players refuse to touch him until he gets put back or "fixed" and a few people including one of my good friends Brandon (Previously WorstDwight who used to post amazing clips on tiktok and Twitter showcasing Trickster) has quit The Trickster due to his playstyle being eradicated and has seemingly had his feedback ignored despite being the most public facing Trickster enthusiast, which is very disheartening for the future of the character if one of the most popular among us had their feedback ignored.
In conclusion I just want to ask that BHVR keeps an ear to the community of people who play their characters when digesting reworks and ask those players what would make the character more interesting and accessible, you did fantastic on the Billy rework and I have nothing but praise for it, but I wish the same due diligence was given for The Trickster.1 -
I agree, hopefully they will listen/talk to those who actually play those characters in the future. It‘s really frustrating to lose the killer you liked.
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I'd also love them to try a mechanic that curved out the edge cases of Main Event, so that Trickster's performance didn't fall flat mid-match by outright obliterating all survivors before things got interesting in a proxy scenario. I had something like this in mind-
Inattentive Audience-- When a Survivor is on the hook, Main Event cannot be activated
- Main Event is operates as normal when someone is not on the hook
This would allow for them to pump more value into Main Event and add excitement toward both sides without fear of the "oh no Main Event cancelled the unhook animation and everyone exploded in 2 seconds" moments that other characters have the identity of- like Bubba. It would also allow for Survivors to have some sort of game-plan against The Trickster if they choose it due to the global notification of Main Event being available.
I also think my initial pitch of 60 knives was a bit much, so I think looking further into it I would lower the knife count of this version and tune down an addon using an offset to incentivize a more patient playstyle modification.Ammo-
- 44 Ammo Capacity
- Ammo addons unchanged (Addons need to be balanced against eachother, so i think 16 and 10 are fine when compared to the other options <3)
Addons-
- Iridescent Photocard
- Photocard reworked to buff the combo meter system by 50% (all haste + action speed including passive) (1.5x haste bonus +action speed and main event duration bonuses)
- NEW EFFECT - Movement Speed while in the Throw state Reduced by 10%
- Photocard reworked to buff the combo meter system by 50% (all haste + action speed including passive) (1.5x haste bonus +action speed and main event duration bonuses)
This should further incentivize a "Tap shoot style" that maintains its encouragement to make a lot of use of the combo system, however remaining in throw state and waiting too long to take your shots should be discouraged as that could be frustrating from either side.
I'll come back with any future edits to this post as I'm still contemplating applications, but I really like how this post is shaking out and the potentiality of this kind of design being further encouraged!0 -
I stopped reading after "4.4 m/s".
Just no. I don't want old slow Trickster, you can keep that one in the past, thanks.
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BHVR has made it clear that their vision of Trickster is a 4.6 killer with rapid fire gameplay, which requires main event having a low activation cost so it can happen frequently.
Current Trickster is much better than previous Trickster, as he's way more reliable now. There are many situations where Trickster really shouldn't be throwing knives, and being a 4.6 killer makes it easier for him to go for M1 hits instead. This (and the removal of recoil) makes Trickster way more accessible to the majority of players, which is a good thing.
Post edited by EQWashu on0 -
This Trickster is not BETTER, he is different yes, and in some ways easier, and in some ways harder. Having a more rare main event is not that hard. 30 may have been too hard for someone who like to pick up Trickster once in a blue moon for a tik tok video, but it was not hard to get with even a little frequent practice on this character. 4.4 is slow. I watch my old videos and I can see that. But he was more lethal with throw rate, and his ramp was more interesting. He can be 4.6 and have a more rare main event, and it can even be half of 30 or even 20…. There are ways to adjust this Trickster so that he feels more like 4.4 without being 4.4 movement speed. In Endzej and Wacek google doc even had a version in there. But for me, if he went back to 4.4, I would celebrate a return of his skill ceiling and no reload. Both as a Trickster main and survivor. But at the same time Im not gonna say this Trickster is bad, cause hes not, hes just weaker where he was already weak, and stronger where he was strong. The benefit of 4.6 is not being outrun around a tiny loop that kind of requires an m1 anyway. And of course map traversal to get to gens. it makes some perks work better. But 4.4 Trickster was more competitive against survivors who know what they are doing, and swfs. So with this Trickster for the average Trickster main, you may hit a wall in mmr that you cant go past unless you have godlike accuracy and game sense. So eventually games will feel stale.
Post edited by EQWashu on1 -
I missed a lot on this forum. o.o
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You should definitely keep reading. Even if you dont agree. At least know what the argument is.
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It doesn't matter how many hours you've played Trickster. Having an extremely high playtime shouldn't boost your opinions over other people. We get it. You've played this character a lot. If anything, it means you really don't understand how bad the 4.4 Trickster was for the majority of players. Your suggestions might work for your small group of elite gamers, but the vast majority of the players would suffer because of them.
The vast majority of players need a 4.6 killer with rapid fire gameplay. They need to know it's ok to sometimes miss shots, and that they aren't being super punished for missing shots. Main event is also very important for the vast majority of players, because it has 4v1 power, and can greatly help players when survivors are trying to body block for each other. That is what most players need.
Post edited by EQWashu on0 -
Most of the people I interact with are infuriated by the current state have less than 300 hrs in the game.
For them Trickster is not accessible, my post seeks to alleviate that. Adding more KPS does nothing to alleviate these problems and has left the killer in a stale, bland state. I do not exclusively speak from my perspective, I speak with the voice of many and have put in the effort to gather feedback. You have only sought to shoot my post down when my only intent is to gather feedback, to which you have only reiterated things the character has existed as in the past, Original Trickster is your fantasy of a "Rapid fire shots missed don't matter" Trickster, That version needed extensive changes because it turns out when your misses don't matter neither does the satisfaction from actually hitting your shots.Post edited by EQWashu on2 -
Stepping in with a reminder to please keep comments civil & respectful toward others, and their opinions on the topic. Thank you.
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That's not what accessible means. Accessible means that players can actually play and do well with a character. Your group of people can play current Trickster, but they'd rather have the previous Trickster back. Current Trickster is accessible to them.
"Rapid fire shots missed don't matter" is very important for accessibility, and should 100% be a thing. The whole concept of rapid fire is the player shouldn't be expected to have 100% accuracy. Rapid fire means you quickly throw a bunch of knives, and try your best to hit as many as possible.
Edit: Also, I've already gone through all these arguments back in the original feedback threads. I'm done here.
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Thank you, my apologies.
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Oh my, where do I start here, because I read this thread for a while now, but honestly was a bit hesitent on writing.
First of all, where am I coming from? I'm a Trickster/Ranged main player. I play a lot of Huntress, Artist and Deathslinger as well, but mostly Trickster. Currently having around 1.7k hours in the game, ~1.3k on killer, of that most likely 1k on these four killers. So, I might be one of "Revviums little minority group" of over a hundred of players that enjoys that killer a lot in some peoples opinion.
From my point of view, I'm just a knife throwing enjoyer, I'm nowhere to be as good as Revvium, Wacek or anybody else up there and that's fine.
I still think current Trickster is boring to play though. 90 % of my games are "find a survivor → hit 8 knifes → main event → down/hook → find a survivor…" there is simply no skill or tech or anything needed, Trickster at the moment is as flat as a character can get. And using M1 on Trickster shouldn't be an argument here, it's not like BHVR would suddenly put Huntress, Slinger, Spirit or Hag on 4.6m/s to "make it easier for beginners to pick up that killer". That's a bs argument, you have knifes on Trickster to make up for 4.4 as you have hatchets on Huntress, TP on Hag, phase-walking on spirit, a rifle on Slinger, etc. and that's fine. It was the same with old Tricksters knifes/throwrate.
Do I like what Revvium suggests here? Mostly, yes.
I'm not a huge fan of the combo system in general, even less if you have "bonus abilities" like an extra knife bounce coming from it, even though it's super rare and more a thing for the more skilled/aim-focused players, I think something like that would make the killer too complex on the long run.
On the other hand, I see nobody complaining about the complexity of other killers, like for example the Unknown, because most of his stuff is kinda obvious, but as soon as you figure out what you can do with his ability and that there are options for playstyles most players wouldn't even consider in a lifetime, well, I could also see that being done on other killers. And I'm not talking about addons here.
Unlike the current Trickster the suggestions in this thread would add some skill ceiling again to Trickster that's higher than the floor to pick him up again. You don't need to play every addon or every single feature of his kit to be somewhat decent at a killer and have fun on it. The amount of Demogorgons I've seen that never ever even placed a portal, not even talking about teleporting…
Reworking Trickster like this would still make it possible for new players to pick him up and give the better or more dedicated players something to work on, to explore and improve.
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You asked me to post this here, so here's my updated feedback for Trickster. Hoping to see something in the coming months.
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Thank you for posting this here, even if I happen to disagree on some points I think its important that BHVR sees all of our feedback with highest ease of access. Very appreciated.
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Gorbo goes into great detail of what Trickster's current issues are and further dissection of the things we lost from the rework.
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I'm a few weeks late here with sharing this, but maybe somebody is still interested in watching this
"6 months of #RevertTrickster" - a summary of what happened and what the current state is.
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Whatever they do to Trickster in the future,
I dont think idd enjoy a slower Trickster as the reason we asked for that was for indoor levels.0 -
It seems that in every rework suggestion I've seen from the Trickster community, the focus always seems to be on rewarding Trickster for knife accuracy instead of spam... and I think this is something BHVR should consider, even if they don't use this rework specifically, it's a direction they might want to consider heading rowards as the core design philosophy of Trickster.
This rework mostly reverts Trickster to his 4.4m/s state (with some number tweaks)... but the real highlight is the combo system that rewards accurate knives building up to your next Main Event.
I like this direction, and I really like the idea of his music ramping up as he builds his combo system.
Losing 1 laceration every 10 seconds though seems a little weird to me... that is so long for the laceration to decay.… or have I misunderstood something?
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I have some of these numbers a tad too high, but this is a theme focused rework. I would love to see something like this rework proposition get tested and narrowed down to good numbers, maybe 6 seconds per laceration decay, but I like the concept of each segment decaying on a timer that begins once the last one faded. the "keep up the pressure" concept is quite fun for its versatility and different situations it can create for gameplay variance.
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Been a while since discussing this one, had to re-read to remember what we were talking about. 😅
Upon a re-read (just because simple = more likely to be implemented) one thing I might suggest looking at again is the duration of Main Event for the lower tiers. I realise this rework is about rewarding Trickster for high skill expression, but a 2 second Main Event for D is quite low... maybe a base of 4 and a 0.5s build up? (D:4, C:4.5, B:5, A:5.5, S:6)
When it comes to your combo system (which I still really like), are we taking your best unbroken combo streak that you managed throughout building up your Main Event? The combo bonus I believe is then applied when get Main Event gets fully stacked up, and you then get the bonus for 20s (or until you activate Main Event)?
If this is how it works, that's very cool, like a Devil May Cry combo mechanic, and it's nice that if Trickster has nothing to use Main Event on (like he used to), he gets a map traversal tool instead.
Your extra bonuses to the combo meter are cool, but I might suggest simplifying this to just the chain, as these bonuses make Tricksters combo meter reliant on map rng, and overcomplicates the balance of this mechanic.
I would thus change it so that each laceration decay drops your current combo chain by 1 tier (not the locked in one), then you now have an interesting mechanic that rewards you for pulling off those tricky shots just to maintain the combo. You also have a nice built in counterplay mechanic for camping hooks, since there are 2 survivors, an unhooking/unhooked survivor can block to spread the knives between each other, and now have something to interrupt your combo build up if they survive long enough.
In return, I would probably make the meter go in 2s personally (D:4, C:6, B:8, A:10, S:12), just because this is half your knives supply without more than 1 miss in between. Since your Main Event is 24, if you get a B combo then fail, S is now impossible... but with the revised version, you can get an A combo, and an S combo IS still possible. With your shorter activation windows and the fact B is required just to become a 4.6 killer, I think it's fine for the max ranks to be a little easier.
It would also encourage newer players to pick up Trickster, since the average player wouldn't have a hope of making 16 unbroken hits, but if they are hitting Cs, and Bs... which isn't easy already (especially on console), now 12 doesn't seem completely out there compared to 16.
Regardless, it's still an awesome suggestion!
Post edited by UndeddJester on1 -
"Upon a re-read (just because simple = more likely to be implemented) one thing I might suggest looking at again is the duration of Main Event for the lower tiers. I realise this rework is about rewarding Trickster for high skill expression, but a 2 second Main Event for D is quite low... maybe a base of 4 and a 0.5s build up? (D:4, C:4.5, B:5, A:5.5, S:6)"
- The base duration in this version is 6 and the combo's add on second increments, I want a serviceable baseline with room for growth with the character for the higher skill groups
"When it comes to your combo system (which I still really like), are we taking your best unbroken combo streak that you managed throughout building up your Main Event? The combo bonus I believe is then applied when get Main Event gets fully stacked up, and you then get the bonus for 20s (or until you activate Main Event)?"
- Yes, the bonus however on this version lasts as you're building it up so that you aren't rushed to hit your shots as much as you are encouraged to maintain being accurate over outright aggression. once you miss enough to "end" the combo it locks in and maintains your current rank. Only allowing the bonuses to act upon Trickster for the 20 second window is a good idea though that would be a good pullback if this proves to be too much!
"Your extra bonuses to the combo meter are cool, but I might suggest simplifying this to just the chain, as these bonuses make Tricksters combo meter reliant on map rng, and overcomplicates the balance of this mechanic."
- I believe that action speed solves a lot of 4.4 Trickster's issues where he would get permanently stuck on a tile, for example shack could leave you feeling helpless against a very competent survivor due to laceration meter burning. Action speed serves to allow you to create mindgames at windows and pallets to ensure some sort of "out" that doesn't just revolve around dropping chase on these survivors. Giving action speed and haste alleviates a lot of map dependency issues, but the big thing is that Trickster's competency on a lot of tiles doesn't have a finesse to it. If the player has no incentive to be patient then the player will never do it which leads to the desire to raw buff the kit until he just kills at his hardest tiles whilst still continuing to make his strongest tiles ever stronger. I want an "out" to these tough tiles and the combo system here allows for that to exist without overloading his stronger points.
"I would thus change it so that each laceration decay drops your current combo chain by 1 tier (not the locked in one), then you now have an interesting mechanic that rewards you for pulling off those tricky shots just to maintain the combo. You also have a nice built in counterplay mechanic for camping hooks, since there are 2 survivors, an unhooking/unhooked survivor can block to spread the knives between each other, and now have something to interrupt your combo build up if they survive long enough."
- I think that some sort of "Combo decay" system could prove fruitful if the need did arise but we're sitting on a system that doesn't guarantee you down anybody and instead makes the downs "easier" if you choose to play in a way that's more slow paced, I also believe that because this system requires you to be accurate with your power, the requirement to be patient with your aim is something that already acts as a limiter of sorts. The capstone tiers are meant to be carrots to chase for the people who purposely lower their lethality by slowing everything down intentionally. The more accurate you're required to be with this character, the more you will naturally slow down your throw rate - which creates a playstyle that is more patient and needs power to offset that intentional reduction of raw rush down lethality.
The primary goal I had with this rework was to give the rapid fire Trickster's some options while also giving options to the Tricksters that want to carrot chase their accuracy instead, while providing option to dip between these styles when necessary, the more rapid fire and outright lethality you exhibit is the less you lean into this system - which innately balances it because you have to show restraint in order to keep up your combo score. If you made it for instance so that the rapid fire style of play always got the highest combo then that in turn removes the entire incentive to add the higher combo levels, hopefully that translates well!
-Revvium 😘
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