DBD is killer sided and I'm tired of people pretending it isn't.
I have over 1500 hours on Steam, and have been playing both sides for years.
I'd estimate that I play survivor 80% of the time and killer 20% of the time.
(the reason for more survivor is that I have friends, but when I play alone I pick killer)
I should start by saying that there is one situation where the game is survivor sided, and that's when there's an extremely well-coordinated SWF who are actively tryharding to win the game. But that's a very small percentage of matches, and barring that, this is what the game feels like:
No matter if I'm playing survivor or killer, I feel like the killer has too much control over how the matches end up.
If a killer is tryharding, they'll win 9 out of 10 matches (unless there's a serious skill issue on the killer's end), while survivors lose much more easily even if there's high skilled players. Most of the time the match is only "fair" is if the killer is playing with honor to give the survivors a chance, or if they barely know how to play killer.
I feel like a reason behind this is that killer is simply too easy to play (with the exception of some killers like the nurse who has a high skill ceiling), and I'm guessing this is probably the case because the developers themselves aren't good at playing the game, so they have no clue how to balance it, and instead end up designing a bunch of brain dead killer abilities.
The Unknown, for example - his AoE shot is so incredibly brain dead that anyone who's played a FPS with arcing grenades is an instant master at it.
Normally with such an arching grenade mechanic, a direct hit would deal the most damage, with a splash hit dealing less damage. But with the Unknown, it doesn't even matter if you get a direct hit or a splash hit,it all hurts the same amount, instantly filling the bar. And to top it off - it doesn't even have a LoS check, it'll damage through obstacles and walls.
These are the kind of brain dead abilities that the devs have been designing with many of the later killers added to the game, that barely require any skill and just automatically hurts the survivors if you just kinda try to get them.
To give constructive criticism and not just complain, here's how an arcing grenade like what The Unknown has SHOULD be designed:
Direct hit = Fill bar instantly, Splash hit = Fill bar 66-75% so splashes require 2 hits (fill % needs to be above 50% or survivors would instantly lower it below 50% and turning it into 3 hits). Splashes NEED to have a LoS check so they can't hit through walls.
Back to the topic at hand, I feel like another thing that contributes to the game being killer sided, is that in order for survivors to win, all 4 of the survivors need to be trying to win. it really is a game of time management, and survivors don't have time goofing around if they want to win, they need to focus on doing generators and being efficient with who loops the killer, who stays at the generators, who goes for the save, etc.
If you have even just 1 survivor screwing around, it doesn't matter how good you are at looping (unless you're on the level of Demi or Spooky). Gens won't get done fast enough.
And here's where challenges ruin it - They're time consuming for the survivors, and this is time they don't have if they want to win. So if you have a survivors goofing off trying to find glyphs or other things that waste their time, they're likely going to lose. Even without challenges, one dumb decision by one survivor can mess it up for everyone else.
As mentioned previously, the devs aren't good enough at the game to understand how to balance it, so they try to listen to player feedback to decide how to balance the game. But the problem is that, from my experience playing this game for over 6 years, people who play Killer are some of the biggest complainers about how they're underpowered, when it's clearly a skill issue that they refuse to admit they have. The developers sees that and think they need to buff whatever the issue was, and then "learn" from that when designing new content as well.
Yes, there are survivors complaining too, but compared to killer complaints, survivor complaints are more often about things like getting tunneled, camped, slugged, or other things that feel unfair or unfun like certain killer abilities that feel unavoidable or inescapable. There aren't the same amount of requests to just keep buffing and buffing and buffing, compared to the amount of killers who keep just wanting to be stronger.
When this is the feedback the devs keep getting, of course killers are going to be overpowered. The people who refuse to admit it are likely relatively new to the game, or playing a killer outside of their skill level.
EDIT:
All of this was written after spending a whole night playing nothing but killer. It does not come from "oh no I die a lot as survivor". I feel bad for people I play against, and I don't even consider myself top-tier.
Comments
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Change that out for an image of a killer. Since that's the side this is coming from.
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"is that in order for survivors to win, all 4 of the survivors need to be trying to win. "
What?
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Unknown is really well design killer for me. Chase power isnt Nurse,Blight,Wesker level, but right just below them. It's teleport is instant, gives it ability to spread pressure well. We need killers that spread pressure better than raw chasing power.
Otherwise, I feel Devs keep making killers easier to play, not just general buffs, but also their powers. Freddy, Trapper….then even with many other killers just buffed (some needed but not Huntress, but still). And now its Twin, even Twin mains complain its too easy to play Twin.
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I explained it further in the original post.
To clarify - If 3 survivors are trying to win (do generators, loop, rescue, all while playing well), but the 4th survivor is goofing off and prioritizing challenges, or is just messing around, then good luck winning.
Meanwhile, the killer is a single person - if they tryhard to win, there isn't much stopping them besides themselves.
Basically how I'd rate what kind of "sided" DBD is:
Well-coordinated SWF with communication > Killer > Casual SWF > Solo Player7 -
It's been like this for years now. Hopefully BHVR wakes up and stop balancing killer role around the average redditor skill level.
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I have no complaints about The Unknown's ability to create husks and teleport.
Only his arcing AoE shot. It's way too easy to hit with for people who know how to arc a grenade. The AoE is huge, hits through walls, and it doesn't even matter if you aim well enough to get a direct hit, since the AoE circle fills the Survivor's portrait the same amount even if it just barely touches them.2 -
You are right but i think thats a general problem for games.
You just cant force someone to take a game serious and try to win. Asymmetric games like dbd ofcourse show this even more since one side has it "easier" to focus on winning since its only one person.
I honestly dont know how the devs can fix a problem that comes from lack of motivation to take the game serious. Sure they could up the 1v1 power of every survivor so one dedicated player can win the round for themself but then you hit the other end of the problem. What do you do if all of them want to win?
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Heavily disagree with your opinion on Unknown. Those changes you suggested would just kill him.
Direct hits don’t apply the Weakened effect, only the splash does. You aren’t supposed to go for direct hits. If you had to go for direct hits then you are just a Huntress with no range at all. I think Unknown is one of the most balanced killers they’ve released recently.
”people who play Killer are some of the biggest complainers about how they're underpowered, when it's clearly a skill issue that they refuse to admit they have.”
This goes both ways. I see it equally on both sides.
Your opinion about survivors only asking for unfun things to be fixed and killers asking to be stronger is also biased. Most of the things killers ask to be nerfed are also uncounterable, unfun mechanics - MFT, Buckle Up, Dead Hard, etc. And a lot of survivors ask to be buffed and become stronger as well. Saying they only ask for unfun mechanics to be nerfed and nothing else is disingenuous.
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I have 1.2k hours and majority of all that time has been spent playing solo queue survivor, I think you need to lower your expectations.
I never hop into solo queue expecting to escape, never, and in fact I may have been that casual player searching for glyphs, but that's how it is, you will escape 35% of the time playing with casual solo queue survivors. As long as you're playing without a SWF group for a game that requires teamwork you shouldn't even expect to win. At that point you're just being entitled.
Also, you wanna talk braindead mechanics for killer, but literally everything a survivor does is a braindead mechanic (i.e., holding W, holding m1, hiding in locker, throwing a pallet). With the exception with difficult techs that are rare to do anyway like a CJ.
The core of winning a survivor game is team efficiency like you said, but you're never ever ever going to get max efficiency on a full team of randoms without comms. Just as killer needs to be effecient by applying pressure. Tbh not many players are very effecient with killer these days, most tunnel like crazy not expecting to be led into a 2 minute chase, which is crazy potential to complete gens.
I agree with the bit about the Unknown. The splash going through walls seems like lazy design if you ask me. In fact everything about the Unknowns design seems lazy.
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I mean the devs have said they intentionally made the game killer sided. I don't know how much more clear cut it can get. If people choose not to accept it then that's not my problem. DBD is only survivor sided under theoretical conditions that do not exist in real matches. Most of the arguments about why DBD is survivor sided are at least several years old and make no sense when you're talking about DBD in 2024. Even four man SWFs at high MMR escape less than half of their matches. Killer mains told me that SWFs were unbeatable so something isn't adding up. Even on the extreme end of pub matches it's still killer sided. The best SWF currently trying for streaks couldn't even reach 200 wins in a row and lost to a TRICKSTER. Meanwhile Nurse and Blight streaks in the thousands.
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I agree, they can't force everyone to try to win - and neither should they. Gaming should be about having fun.
But I feel like the game tends to add a ton of unnecessary time-wasting activities on the survivor's side, which makes it far too common for survivors to only care about completing their side mission instead of playing as a team who's all trying to escape together.
They should focus on making the objective of working together to escape into a fun activity that people are motivated to try to achieve. Rather than adding all these side-objectives that take time away from the main goal of the game.1 -
The game isn't "sided" at all. You'll get steamrolled in some matches, scrape a win, or destroy the other team. On both sides. There are some unbalanced things in the game (some perks, certain maps, some addons) but you'll realize the game is "sided" based on whoever is trying harder. You could make an argument that SWF is unbalanced due to its inherent advantages, but the chances you'll encounter SWFs specifically trying as hard as possible to 4 out is highly unlikely.
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As a Nea main, I like the way you draw Nea… that being said, I do like all of your art, but I love to see Nea drawn sometimes.
(Though I kind of feel like you are slowly converting me to a Yui main since Ive been playing her a lot more.)1 -
DBD is killer sided in the low to mid skill levels and very survivor sided at the top level of play.
Much of what determines a win in pubic matches is RNG and who brings the sweatiest builds.
The majority of the DBD player base are low skill casual survivors and the game mostly balances around this, which makes perfect sense. If the game was actually killer sided at all levels the average player would have no chance
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If it's not "sided" in any direction then why do I win a vast majority of my killer matches besides the ones where I feel so bad that I turn friendly? And no, it's not low MMR, I get tryhards with meta builds too.
Even SWFs lose most of the time, since most of them are casuals who just play for fun with each other, so they end up being "too alturistic" for their own good which gets them all killed. The exception of course being those try-hard SWF groups, but even then those ones win barely half of the time from my experience as a killer against them.
Against these SWF, I have the advantage as a killer to judge pre-game based on their skins whether or not I think they're a SWF, and I can see the items they have equipped. If I don't like what I see, I can dodge the lobby. If I see them all with toolboxes, I can bring Franklins. If I see flashlights, I can bring Mad Grit and Lightborn and capitalize on knowing that they'll try to flashlight me.
Survivors can't counter like this before the match starts, or lobby dodge killers they don't like. So even before the match starts, a tryharding killer can give himself the advantage.4 -
I should start by saying that there is one situation where the game is survivor sided, and that's when there's an extremely well-coordinated SWF who are actively tryharding to win the game.
According to the stats, not even that is survivor-sided.
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I feel like "DBD is survivor sided at high MMR" is just something people are parroting without it actually being the case.
Sure, it may be true for the top few loopers and content creators who no-life the game. But it's such a rare edge-case that it's not applicable to normal play, even in high MMRs, unless it's high MMR survivors VS a killer who's not at the same level.7 -
" I play survivor 80% of the time and killer 20% of the time "
yep this says all u are just a Survivor Main who is mad when he is losing
If u only Play 20% of Killer u Killer MMR is never so high that u are playing against High Rank Survivors in high Rank the Game is heavy Survivor Sided there is a reason most high Rank Players only Play Nurse or Hug Tech Blight
Players who only plays 1 side have no rights to Talk about balancing because they dont know how both Sides are they only see there Side and want to see the other side nerfed
Unknown is balanced he is just a Low A Tier Killer and we need more A tier Killers he is just new and ppl dont know how to counter him or are refuse to learn how to counter him so they ask for Nerfs i watch alot High Rank Killer Mains who always Play against SwF Squads and they also still just get a 2k as Unknown
His Power is easy to Dodge since its a slow projectile even slower than Huntress Axe when u look Back and dont Camp paletts or Standing near a Wall u can easy Dodge it if u really Think Unknown is to strong than Huntress is OP because she is much better than him 🤷🏻♀️
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You get to play Competitive too? Like Bruh, Most SWF has a high death rate because they're exactly SWF. They're altruistic af that will make mistakes because they're actual friends.
Now try to play at the Community Cups or Any High levels Comps or even try to Scrims with any of the Teams. I guarantee you, you're not even experiencing Top MMR Survivors.
BHVR also coded MMR to be if you escape or not as a Survivor. Even 1 escape means the Killer loss.
MMR is also dependent on the time you're playing. If you're playing 8pm on a sunday then you're playing the time when a bunch of casuals are just playing to have fun. Try to play at Morning/Afternoon on Weekdays, those are when the no social life no work tryhards DBD addicts play.1 -
Because the majority of players are not good at this game. You really should play solo queue and watch how many of your teammates go down in 5 seconds or hide and don't do gens.
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People not realizing their experiences differ in a game with millions of players across different regions and skill levels will always be the funniest thing to me. Say everything you just said to the Nea with 90 hours and the Meg with thousands, I don't think it's crazy to say you'll get different answers.
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WWhy the hell would you balance any game about one side not even trying?
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I drew alot of Nea
Twitter only shows a limited number of post though when you search something though. You have to search Nea for each year (2021, 2022, 2023, 2024) to able to see all of them.
Searching tag would be: nea (from:C3_Tooth) until:2022-12-31 since:2022-01-01 (replace 2022 with other years, or replace nea with other character)
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I mean 1500 hours isn't that much yet.. SoloQ is soloQ. don't expect to win there. It isnt killer sided its just survivors playing badly and being selfish.
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The game IS killer-sided. Literally every public stat, tournament, and even the devs themselves have shown it is. It's only on this forum that people claim otherwise, but this forum is just special at this point. People here are uniquely good at twisting stats and finding creative excuses. We've even seen people demonstrate that 60% killrate still translates to killers losing more than survivors, among other nonsense.
Post edited by Saiph on9 -
Realistically the game should always be slightly killer sided, in a 1v4 game the 1 should be the power role
That being said, assuming everyone’s around the same level of skill, the hierarchy of power of DBD goes:
SoloQ survivor - Killer - SWF
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You might want to read up on how Unknown's power actually works. A direct hit with UVX doesn't apply the weakened status effect. Only the explosion does and on direct hits, more often than not, that damn thing will fly too far and explode with the survivor just barely out of range. Meaning, that you're not supposed to hit survivors directly but only indirectly.
I also like how "skill issue" only extends in one direction. When 1 survivor plays bad and they ruin the game for their whole team, then why don't we consider that a skill issue as well? For the killer something like this doesn't happen because they have no one but themself to rely on. DBD is not a series 1v1 games but a 1v4. That means, that you absolutely cannot factor out things like varying skill levels in the team of 4. Btw, this also goes the other way around. I have had more than a few solo queue matches in which I clearly wasn't good enough in chase to have any right to escape but then I still got out because someone else was good enough carry my load while I focused on the easier things like doing gens, unhooking and healing. But then we still call that a skill issue on the killer's side because they didn't go after the bad survivor (tunneling).
See how that creates a lose-lose situation? If they don't tunnel and lose as a result, then they are told it's a skill issue. If they do tunnel and win, then they are told it's a skill issue because they had to tunnel, which is overpowered. And if they win by spreading hooks, then the killer they play is overpowered. Now, all of that wouldn't be a big deal, if we applied the same standards to survivors. But we don't. Because on one hand, it doesn't make sense and on the other you could lose because someone else played bad.
Basically, it's either a skill issue on the killer's side or they are overpowered but we never actually admit, that they might have earned the win by simply playing better or that the game isn't so killer-sided that killers are always guaranteed to win. Because 4 decent survivors can definitely win a match with or without playing in a SWF by just playing better.
Of course that is hard in a solo queue team because the matchmaking needs to pick 4 survivors that are actually on the same skill level (which rarely ever works considering the poor implementation of MMR) and killers and survivors have 2 completely different skill sets. For a survivor, standing still in check spots is skill. For a killer, doing the same thing isn't. It's considered quite the opposite, if we extend this to camping. For killers it's a skill to switch targets effectively. For survivors, not really. There is no reason to abandon a gen, if the killer doesn't stay right there in which case you don't need to make a prediction because you already know the right decision. For killers there is a lot mechanical skill involved with many powers. For survivors there is no such equivalent. Their counterplay looks completely different (a lot of it comes from predictions / reactions). Who is to judge who needs to have more skill to come out on top? I reckon, the killer often takes more skill but they have an advantage in learning their skill set because they spend more time doing that than survivors learning how to counter these specific killer powers (especially with 35 different killers in the game).
Objectively, the results of the game's current balance lean into the killer's favor. A 60% skill rate is overall killer sided. The problem is that a 50% kill hasn't worked. Do you remember those survivor queue times? I do and I might be alone with this but I don't think waiting 10+ minutes for a game and then dying because my team mate doesn't understand that you need to unhook other survivors before the 2 minutes hook timer is up is preferable to what we have now. Especially since survivors were arguing about how the game was so incredibly killer sided back then as well.
The killer role is undeniably more stressful than playing survivor. As a survivor you can relax when doing gens or healing. You'll know when to switch plans (because you can react to situations as they arise) and stressing over this doesn't make it go faster. As a killer, you're constantly in the action and have to make decisions. The only down time is when you have someone on your shoulder and even that is debatable because you already need to think about where to go next, whether or not to use a specific hook (like basement), whether or not this or that strategy (i.e. camping) is the right move etc. If the payoff for the killer role isn't high enough to make it worth it, then you will have less people playing killer. Sometimes much less (2021 was a bad time to queue up as survivor). As of right now, it seems to be somewhat even with survivors having shorter queues during the day and killers during the night (EUW servers).
More than any drastic balance changes, what the game needs is minor case by case adjustments. How many perks do we have in this game? And how many are actually good? How many maps do we have and how many are actually fun for both sides? This doesn't always equate to balance but towards making the game more fun overall. There are arguments about how The Game is killer sided for example but I have yet see any killer player that really likes to play on it. These same arguments exist for how it's survivor sided but from what I have seen, survivors don't seem to love it either.
I personally don't like playing against Chucky anymore. Many hits feel quite cheep. But I don't think he's too powerful. I also don't like playing against Wraith but he definitely isn't overpowered. The same goes for DH (although, it should not be buffed again for obvious reasons) and sometimes SB and Lithe. Things can be annoying without being balance issues. That's what really drags the game down sometimes.
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They keep buffing killers every patch like the new Twins rework. It's only going to get worse.
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Thats not what the data says.
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If that was true then why do swfs at high mmr only have a 48% escape rate
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Yes because raw numbers in DBD have always told the full story, which is why Skull Merchant is indeed the best killer in the game. After all that is what the data says, right?
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She is she has the highest kill rate. Even with what your saying the data may be skewed due to people giving up and killing on hook that data is far less prevalent at high mmr because people know what they're doing and don't quit. So if any number is a decent indicator of what's going on its the raw data from the top mmr. Just because its not aligning with your narrative doesn't mean its not correct. The same can be said about nurse she is not the best killer in the game, most nurses suck so your chances of going against a good one are like 20 percent. Now if they showed the kill rates of top mmr nurses and top mmr skull merchants these kill rates would be completely different. Just as is the kill rate from solo duo 3 and swf man groups mmr and kill rates.
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My problem when people say "in a 1v4, the 1 should be the power role" is that they're not counting players, they're counting wins.
In a 1v4, if the 1 can kill 2 on average, they're the power role. Because 1 player is stronger than at least 2 of the opposing team players on average. But people don't usually count that as being the power role because that's a tie.
When people say they want killers to be the power role, they don't mean "one of me should be able to take down more than one of them", they mean "one of me should be able to win more than a team of them" which is a terrible game design decision.
A team of them should be able to win about as many matches as one of me.
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Yes and Nurse has the lowest kill rate because she is the worst killer, as the data also says so…. right? SMH
The fact is, most of the DBD player base are survivors and most of those are low skill to absolutely useless at the game. Many I suspect only play an hour or two every few weeks but the data would reflect that too, right?
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I don’t think people are pretending, I think this is more just miscommunication.
Like I think the community at large agrees the game is killer sided at low mmr, balanced on average and survivor sided at high mmr.
The reason people, myself included say it’s survivor sided even though I agree with the above statement, is because we judge objective balance by good vs good. AKA high mmr. Not the average game. This is because we don’t find objective balance when it’s just people playing bad, you need good vs good to remove as many variables altering the data as you can.
So “most” matches or the “average match” is pretty balanced but the game is “objectively” survivor sided. I’d also argue that those coordinated swf try hard groups you’re referencing that make the game extremely unbalanced are very, very common at high mmr. If you don’t believe me the proof is on my streams I do regularly.
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Hey, I just wanna say, I remember using one of your drawings of Legion as a profile pic for my playstation 4 account nearly 7 years ago when I was still in High school. Only a couple DBD players asked where it was from and I told them you drew it, since I like your art alot.
Now that I'm older and know more about how artists creations are seen, was this bad form from me? I stopped using it because I felt guilty and it was only for a PS4 account when I was barely 17.1 -
Did you not read I said yes she is the worst killer overall. Most nurse games you will stomp the nurse untill high mmr the numbers dont just look at high mmr but overall.
If they accounted for only high mmr like they did for the high mmr kill rate then you would get a completely different number.
You're literally agreeing with what im saying the fact that some people only play one or two hours a week correlates why she has such a low kill rate over all and skull merchant has a high one skull merchant is much easier to play resulting in higher killrates across the board. Thanks for making my point though.
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Whether it is "parroting" or not, it is the objective truth of the matter.
Yes this does apply to "top few loopers and content creators who no-life the game" and it is rare because we are the top 1% who play the game more than 70 hours per week or 10 hours a day. I am a survivor main myself and I know this game is survivor sided at the very top and anyone who argues otherwise is simply wrong.
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Except the devs who have all the input in the game unanimously agree the game is killer sided by all metrics and purposely make it that way. How you feel when your playing means nothing and facts dont have feelings. You can feel its one way or another but the data proves what it really is. Its the same reason a full comp swf can barley get a 200 win streak while those are baby numbers in terms of a killer winstreak.
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I think you mistook me with CuteC3, we are not the same person. I only start drawing DBD since mid 2021.
Alot of artists are okay when you ask them if you can use their art as your pfp.
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You made the argument that the data indicates otherwise (that the game isn't killer sided low/mid level and strongly survivor sided at the top level) but clearly the data doesn't take into account so many contributing factors. So presenting the data as the basis of your refutation is fallacious since the data itself does not tell the full story.
The fact is, the game is killer sided and the low/mid level of player skill and survivor sided at the top level. If you think otherwise, you are just plain wrong and anyone who plays this game at a high level knows this.
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There’s zero “feelings” in my post, I’m referencing all community thoughts or facts. There's many things the devs think that they get wrong or don’t understand in the game, most the community would agree on that. Their data is also extremely flawed for a multitude of reasons. You’re referencing a lot of flawed data that you’re misunderstanding its interpretation.
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How is looking at every single different mmr's data flawed data flawed data is not looking at it by every metric like the nurses kill rate for example. If at the highest mmr the escape rate is still under 50% explain to me how that is not an indicator the game is not killer sided? Without telling me what the community thinks(hate to break it to you but those are feelings).
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They balance for a 60% kill rate. That means that 3K is an average game. So, ONE OF THE FOUR SURVIVORS ESCAPES. Will that one survivor be you? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
Anyone who tells you the game is not killer sided is either lying to you or drinking the Kool-Aid, and I say this as Pig Main that thinks Kool-Aid has way too much sugar.
While this might change somewhat at different levels, it still does not change the fact that the developers have stated on many occasions that they try to balance for a 60% kill rate on average.2 -
I literally just decided to boot up my old PS4 to check, and wow yes you are right it is from CuteC3. My bad, the name was mixed up for me.
I have seen your artwork around though, I remember the one you did of Sadako bringing marshmallows to the hook but nobody was there, poor thing haha.
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No lol Its more killer sided at low levels and still killer sided at high mmr the numbers clearly prove it. You dont even know ifd you play at a high level lol i always love the " I pLaY aT hIgH MmR' argument youre wrong its as simple as that no one cares how you feel the NUMBERS dont lie math dosent lie. If it is a 48% survival rate at the top tier mmr that only 5% of the people playing at with swf where every try hard plays and sweats to death and the killer still has a higher win rate then i dont know what else to tell you but you have no idea what youre talking about. The numbers are much lower indicating like you said at lower mmr killer is even easier.
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Please show me the data you collected to prove your point or admit you have no data and are just going based off of what people say and feel.
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Data is meaningless if the methodology is flawed and it doesn't take all factors into consideration, this is what you seem to be unable to comprehend. I don't know how to make you understand that when your data omits significant variables, the end result is meaningless.
Anyone who plays this game at a high level knows I am right. Facts.
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I have the proof/data in all my vods if you'd like to rewatch them all.
We can also simply compare times for objectives between the sides to see the skew objectively.
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