Why are Pyramid Head’s cages exempt from almost all anti-tunnel features?
So I’ve had a strange increase in PH games lately and they made me think - why are PH’s cages exempt from all the new features + does not activate perks?
I understand that there are (some) anti-tunnel/camp features already encapsulated within the cages, such as them spawning the furthest point from the killer and them moving when the killer gets too close but I don’t think they are good enough to justify none of the new measures (like endurance after unhook) being present.
With recent developments and how the cages work, such as the reduction of map sizes across the board and the cage always spawning predictably in (most likely) a corner across the map from you, it’s no longer difficult to just walk up after the notification and chase the survivor again, who’s guaranteed not to have endurance from the unhook or off the record, nor decisive strike and perhaps even dead hard technically (though I’m not sure of that one).
I do understand the opposite perspective as well, that with cages you can’t proc things like scourge hook perks but I’d say having the capability to essentially 2 hook someone with little to no fear of perk consequences makes up for it. Cages should be distinct from hooks otherwise why would you choose to use them? The added difficulty of making a survivor tormented should be worth something extra. However I don’t think that benefit should be tied to tunnelling. I think there should be a negative consequence for the rescuer, if anything (they are rescuing someone from a very spiky cage after all!), and it adds a nice risk/reward with saving a team member, potentially removing your own torment, but at some form of cost to you for rescuing them.
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Because cages are not hooks.
Its also the only thing he really has going for him right now that he can hard tunnel people out so easily. Would not be opposed to them changing this and then making his other part of his power better (bring back old PH that doesn't feel super clunky using his power)
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all his cages rlly need are adjustments with the rng and maybe an adjustment to the cage anti face camping feature
I’ve played this killer for years and I’m gonna tell ya
The rng is so predictable and easily memorizable
The devs should just do adjustments to his cage spawns because for one fact they all have a very memorizable spawn locations which makes it easy to tunnel
Personally I’d be fine if they do adjustments to the “uncage notification”
I agree they should bring back release pyramid head
His old POTD was so fun to use and didn’t feel too miserable
Also his POTD attack isn’t rlly that bad while being clunky the only problem with it is that it’s anti-beginner but once you start getting used to playing with his POTD it becomes less miserable and more fun to use
Also cages aren’t the only thing he has going for him
He’s still easily one of the best antiloop killers in the game
He just needs an addon pass
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I absolutely agree. I think he’s not too shabby of a killer, and I don’t mind going against him, except for the cages.
I think he’s very effective at tunnelling, and some of that effectiveness could instead be traded for snowball potential if you inflict the rescuer with an ailment. It could even be something like rescuers who are not inflicted with torment become tormented after interacting with the cage - this could facilitate chaining cages on different people that simply hooking wouldn’t have. This could also link to an add-on tweak - put debilitating status effects like exhausted, oblivious, potentially exposed onto the rescuer to incentivise not only targeting the rescuer but also to move away from just double range add-ons and things that improve his already pretty good chase potential.0 -
addons could be a neat thing to add to incentives going after the uncager but it won’t undo the fact that many pheads prefer going for double hits off cages and hooks with the POTD attack
I’ve thought before of an iri addon concept that makes cages work exactly like hooks where you can gain access to hook perks by caging survivors with the downside that survivors also can use hook perks on cages yet there’s still many things that won’t make that a possible concept with how certain perks don’t work around the cages mechanic and how the cage mechanic has some unique aspects in it
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The whole point of cages is that they ignore anything and everything related to hooks. The ENTIRE point
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Yes, I’m very well aware how they DO work, but WHY do they work this way?
Think about it from a more critical perspective - cages do not fit the new design ethic BHVR have taken to anti-tunnelling and camping. The current way cages are designed means they are incredibly predictable, and alongside new reductions in map sizes, cages are a relic of the past that allow you to bypass (now) core gameplay mechanics and facilitate tunnelling. Cages have never been the strongest part of PH’s kit, and it makes little to no sense why there wouldn’t be changes to curb a playstyle that inherently encourages tunnelling. My whole point was that we can redirect that to the unhooker to allow for far more interesting snowballing gameplay that doesn’t rely on rushing down the same person over and over again.
Just because a mechanic exists and has unique interactions, it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t look at how that can affect the state of the game. Cages are inconsistent with all the new core gameplay mechanics and perk changes that encourage spreading out hooks. PH isn’t desperately in need of a tunnelling to sustain him as a killer, his power aside from cages is a strong ability that requires a lot of skill but for good value. I don’t think that it should just activate survivor buffs for free, there should be compensation for it in his kit somewhere, but cages are objectively outdated and inconsistent.2 -
I think the logic is the cages of atonement are unaffected by anti-tunneling mechanics because they move a considerable distance if P-head nears them. The belief from the devs seems to be that technically a survivor who has been saved from a cage can be healed before P-head can make it to the cage.
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Yeah I got caught by a pyramid head when it was just me and a kate left. She had the gate ready and was coming to get me since I spawn where she open the gate but the pyramid head was already here and she had no choice but to leave me (i only 1 hook too) super annoying cause it would have been both of us out. He just immediately knew where I was.
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They work this was because it's how the devs wanted them to work, in order to give The Executioner his uniqueness and strength. Taking into account survivors have to be tormented first and trails are able to be avoided, I feel it's a nice mechanic to have.
As for survivors, I've not noted tunneling happening much versus The Executioner when Caged. It takes a while for him to come across, and if survivors just keep him near it, the cage flies off again.
I don't want the cages to allow anti-tunneling perks to activate. It would ruin the uniqueness of his power.
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His whole power needs a serious adjustment imo. Tormented feels like a side feature that enables tunneling, the actually good part of his kit is a boring ranged attack that was made up for DBD, and his addons are doodoo.
I made a post about how I'd change him, although admittedly it wouldn't solve the tunneling issue. It would be kinda crazy if he manages to dodge the seemingly upcoming DS meta like last time.
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Well, that is because PH is meant to be that way.
The point of the cages is that they don't work like hooks, they are meant to be different. I don't think that changes just because his release was years ago.
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I feel like a lot of comments here aren't really looking at whether or not cages should ignore hooking mechanics, just whether or not they do—which we all know the answer to and isn't the point of the thread. Yes, cages uniquely ignore all hooking mechanics, but is that a good thing? I personally would argue no. It heavily curtails his perk variety, renders him just about unbuffable because if they make him better without making him worse at tunneling he is simply the supreme tunneler and not much else, and also is an annoying playstyle in general? Tunneling is really strong, it doesn't need to be stronger. It's also just not interesting—there's a lot more you could do with caging survivors that they just can't because cages are a tunneling mechanic first, or at LEAST in equal proportion to them being a snowball mechanic.
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I don’t think he was purposefully designed to be a tunnelling killer.
They ARE meant to be different, I did mention that, but I don’t think that difference should be incentivising tunnelling.
His release being years ago changes absolutely everything - back on release, DS had not been nerfed to account for conspicuous actions, there were no gameplay mechanics built into hooks to actively prevent tunnelling or camping, and maps were MUCH bigger, meaning that PH had much more map to cross to get to the caged survivor. PH’s cages were fine because they were a way to avoid an obnoxiously prevalent problem with DS, and the size of maps meant that you had far more time to heal or rotate. His cages haven’t changed to account for any of the new design ethics, and they’re not only incredibly outdated, they provide very little unless you’re tunnelling, especially with the new prevalence of scourge hooks.0 -
His old POTD had basically no counterplay. You'd either take the vault and he'd hit you with it, or you wouldn't take the vault and he'd instantly cancel into an M1.
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and that hasn’t even changed to this day
I still do this all the time I’m still hitting survivors whenever they interact into any form or animation mid chase (vaulting, pallet dropping, etc)
it had counterplay and it was to play around the fact that you’re playing against a ranged killer who can hit you mid loops and you had to play around it
And “M2 faking into an M1” is still a thing btw
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Fair enough. THey exist as a way to sacrifice a survivors to the entity without hooks. AND they exist as a counter to any hook related perks. One could argue that the second reason is the main reason for the cage to exist.
Many people say that its time for the cages to basicly count as hooks, and have hook related perks activate with cages, both for killers and survivors. But I HEAVILY disagree with this. If the only benefit i'm getting from using a cage is to simply save a few seconds carrying a survivor to a hook, then really, the cages serve no purpose. And that would effectively remove half of Pyramid Head's power
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same the cage mechanic is very unique and it would make pyramid head a low tier killer
I get people find this mechanic frustrating but nerfing his cages will just turn him into a second Freddy
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M2 faking is still a thing, yes, but there's actually a cooldown on it. You get some time to make it to a pallet/window. There's more counterplay than there was before.
Also what does "it had counterplay and it was to play around the fact that you’re playing against a ranged killer who can hit you mid loops and you had to play around it" mean. That doesn't actually explain any counterplay at all.
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you can m2 fake and cancel mid animation which allows you to dodge the cooldown
And question
Do you play against nurse like she’s an m1 killer or the fact that she can get around the loop and hit you? That’s exactly what playing vs pyramid head is
And his old kit was far from problematic when it came to M2 hits0
